(Topic ID: 201865)

[SOLVED] Another Q15 issue...

By Fifty

6 years ago


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  • 16 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Fifty
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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25N10 (resized).jpg
IRL540vs22NE10L (resized).jpg
Screen Shot 2017-11-03 at 11.21.30 PM (resized).png
Screen Shot 2017-11-03 at 11.21.54 PM (resized).png
#1 6 years ago

The quick and dirty;

Stern Spider-man.
I cradled a ball on the left flipper when my wife interrupted me in the middle of a game.
Flipper fell while talking to her. Huh?
Fuse was blown. Replaced with another SB 3A.
Turned on game, fuse started glowing red, turned off game quickly.
Looked around under the PF. Noticed a disconnected EOS wire. Re-soldered it.
Turned on game, fuse started glowing red, turned off game quickly.
Read the manual. Googled. Q15 seems likely.
Replaced it, flipper remains energized as soon as you power on the game.

Here is where I ask a question...

The Stern part is this; STP22NE10L
I ordered this; http://tinyurl.com/ybbr5oz7

The only difference seems to be the amperage. 25A instead of 22A.

Question 1: Are these parts compatible? I need a second opinion.

Question 2: If they are, then I'm not sure what to check next.

Thanks in advance.

#3 6 years ago

The ST parts in your link are not compatible.
They might work... might not. And if they do work, they might quit when temperature in room changes.
The important spec is the VGS(th) value -- the threshold value of the part in the link is too high.

Use an IRL540N. Note the "L" in the part number... don't go with the more common IRF540N.

#4 6 years ago

I know of this part. Please elaborate on why this is better than the one I purchased.

Quoted from G-P-E:

The ST parts in your link are not compatible.
They might work... might not. And if they do work, they might quit when temperature in room changes.
The important spec is the VGS(th) value -- the threshold value of the part in the link is too high.

What do you mean by 'when temperature in room changes'?

The VGS value of the part I purchased is identical to the Stern part. (20)

#5 6 years ago

Stern part;
Screen Shot 2017-11-03 at 11.21.54 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-11-03 at 11.21.54 PM (resized).png

Mine;
Screen Shot 2017-11-03 at 11.21.30 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-11-03 at 11.21.30 PM (resized).png

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from Fifty:

Please elaborate on why this is better than the one I purchased.

Because Stern switched to it for flippers until I believe they went to the IRL80.

Every time I replaced a 22NE10L with the IRL540, I never had a IRL540 fail.

I'd listen to Ed from GPE when he says it isn't compatible. When it comes to electrical components, Ed is the smartest guy in the room.

LTG : )

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from Fifty:

I know of this part. Please elaborate on why this is better than the one I purchased.

What do you mean by 'when temperature in room changes'?
The VGS value of the part I purchased is identical to the Stern part. (20)

1 -- the IRL540N has TTL compatible gate control. The one you purchased does not.
2 -- the part you purchased has a low end VGth that just barely makes it into the TTL compatible voltage range. On a good day - it may work but if temperature shifts, the thresholds shift and might make the part better... or worse. Regardless, it would not be a *reliable* replacement.

#8 6 years ago

And when looking at data sheets - you not only look at absolute maximums but also the applicable values as well.
For this application - the VGS(th) or Gate Threshold voltage is very important. It should be below 2.4V... in fact, the 22NE10L didn't even fit within that as it top'd out at 2.5V.

See attached:

IRL540vs22NE10L (resized).jpgIRL540vs22NE10L (resized).jpg

#9 6 years ago

And here is a snippet of the 25N10F data sheet. Note the VGS(th) *starts* above the 2.4V limit and goes up from there. It is well above TTL thresholds (as used in your machine) and almost out range of 5V CMOS voltage thresholds (which are not used in your machine).

25N10 (resized).jpg25N10 (resized).jpg

#10 6 years ago

Think of opening a door (or... a GATE) when looking at the VGS values.
The absolute maximum value is how hard you can push the door before the door comes off the hinges.
The threshold value (VGSth) is how hard to push the door just to fully open the door.
The 25N10 parts you bought need the circuit to push the door harder than the IRL540N... and in this case, the driving circuit can't (or might barely) push hard enough to open the door.

And a bit more wordiness....
Note - this has nothing to do with how fast the door opens. Once you hit the gate threshold - the door always opens damned fast. The controlling factor for speed is the "slew rate" on the gate voltage. This is how fast the voltage from the source driver circuit raises the gate voltage from near zero to or above VGS(th). Slow rise in voltage, slow turn on time. Fast rise in voltage, fast turn on time. Problem with MOSFET's is they switch a ton of current nearly instantaneously. A fast slew rate equals a huge inrush of current. Some MOSFET's can handle the slew rate better than others and some just die over time as the huge current inrush slowly kills them off. Better to be safe than sorry so this is why you will nearly always see a small 'slew rate limiting' capacitor on the gate connection of driver MOSFETs.

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Because Stern switched to it for flippers until I believe they went to the IRL80.
Every time I replaced a 22NE10L with the IRL540, I never had a IRL540 fail.
I'd listen to Ed from GPE when he says it isn't compatible. When it comes to electrical components, Ed is the smartest guy in the room.
LTG : )

Ed said it might, or might not be compatible.

G-P-E

Thank you for you posts. They have been very helpful. I did not know that I needed to look deeper into the spec sheets than I did. I have always searched for the max limits to ensure a part is compatible but you have showed me I need to dig a little deeper. Thank you!

I will purchase the proper part and report back once installed.

Thanks everyone!

#12 6 years ago

Moral of the story? When it comes to electronics and parts, listen to Ed! A true asset to the hobby.

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

Moral of the story? When it comes to electronics and parts, listen to Ed! A true asset to the hobby.

I would say the moral is live and learn. Ed wasn't there when I originally ordered the part. There is no disputing that he is an asset to the hobby though.

#14 6 years ago

Update:

I pulled the board. My gut feeling was that I had blown the new transistor again. When I replaced the MOSFET the flipper was fine until I pushed the flipper button and it remained up. So I figured I blew the MOSFET again.

Once the board was out I tested D15 and D16. Both tested fine. I removed the MOSFET I had installed and soldered in the new one recommended by Ed (and a few others on the forum here). I re-installed the board, said a small prayer, and turned the pin on...

This solved the problem. Incompatible part. i will have to dig a little deeper through the spec sheets and look at the application values instead of just the max values (as pointed out to me).

Gentlemen, I cannot thank you enough for your help on this one. Thank you. G-P-E LTG

#15 6 years ago

There's really only two replacements for this application. The IRL540 and the STP40NF10L.
Notice with both parts the "L" designation, for logic level drive. As Ed explained, this is important.

The IRL540 is rated at 26 amps. The STP40NF10L is rated at 40 amps. Both are rated at 100 volts. Either will work but the STP40NF10L is more robust (and more expensive.) I've been using the IRL540 for years without any issues. Though the STP40NF10L is more appealing, it's twice the price.

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

Though the STP40NF10L is more appealing, it's twice the price.

Paying $2-$4 bucks to get a $6000+ machine up and running again doesn't make me hesitate in the least.

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