With prices headed up so high so fast, one day soon 10k by Christmas will be a decrease.....

Yep, and Stern's new slogan......."Follow the Leader".......hehe

Gosh lets hope not.

Did you buy a standard WOZ ?

Thanks iceman44 I really appreciate practical advice! If you have anymore suggestions for cheaper great games I would love to hear it! I have just been looking at the top 300 list and going over then used sections on all the online sources I can find. I picked the TH because I am patient and need to be from what I see lol No really I love the WOZ( from the game play and reviews I have seen) and the LCD to be honest. The rest of the games in my (growing) list are based on my personal Preference and Theme! NOT on iffy resale or collectable value! Oh I forgot to mention That X files is at the top of my list and Thankfully it not very popular and cheap! The music and Flukeman make that game for me! I researched the crap out them from Gameplay videos/reviews to calling and talking to retailers daily for info and advice both here in Canada and the States. I have been reading hundreds of posts on a couple pinball forums to see what people with experience are saying. I have also played some games this past summer while on vacation in a huge Arcade 6 hours away. I don't have easy access to get to games to play so I have to do the best I can in choosing them. I admit I do get dazzled by all the LE hype but with Sterns from what I have seen there is a differnce in the PF from Pro to LE..correct? I have already ditched a couple games I thought I would like by theme alone but the gamlay demo and reviews changed my mind. My "issue" is I want to buy 3 or 4 games ASAP because we have none at all to play on lol
ccotenj
My "logic" in paying $2,000 more for a NIB is simple...for that small amount I have a warranty and the security that if something is wrong I can have it delt with. I do not have people in my circle who are skilled in the knowledge of repairing these games. The closest repair shop is 6 hours away. A small price to pay not that I need to justify my logic but I thought I would since I don't want to come across being offensive being new here.
I also "feel" a underlying animosity from lots of poster's when games prices are discussed. It seams that how one chooses to spend thier money on pins is somehow open for others evaluations. I simply explained how the Market is dictating my choices not that it is a sore nerve for me or not. I am indifferent this new in the game.
Thanks again for the advice!

World Poker Tour, WPT, is imho, the best/most underrated "cheaper great game" ever......play it first!......But, Steve Ritchie on the design, Lyman and Keith on the rules and Granner on sound......an all star team.....so much fun for 2K!

Negative Jimmy........I rolled the dice and made my point and am still on a roll with that one

Is anyone actually charging $8K for STLE? If they are you need to try another vendor...

translated: yup, you just picked a list games and haven't actually gone out and played a bunch of machines... gotcha...

hint: you'd better learn how to fix them... the other 2 or 3 you are planning to buy aren't going to magically not break simply because they don't have a warrantee...

In your own mind .

Yes.........and its a "beautiful mind".......ever see the movie?

7800 is close enough?.......Ask Rob.....

Thanks iceman44 I really appreciate practical advice! If you have anymore suggestions for cheaper great games I would love to hear it! I have just been looking at the top 300 list and going over the used sections on all the online sources I can find. I picked the TH because I am patient and need to be from what I see lol No really I love the WOZ( from the game play and reviews I have seen) and the LCD to be honest. If JJP was to continue doing his games this way I would love it. A NIB game very 24 month or so with no large financial impact is right up my alley! ( knowing he can deliver now of course) I applaude the trail blazers who went ahead of me and paved the way in THAT gamble The rest of the games in my (growing) list are based on my personal Preference and Theme! NOT on iffy resale or collectable value! Oh I forgot to mention That X files is at the top of my list and Thankfully it not very popular and cheap! The music and Flukeman make that game for me! I researched the crap out them from Gameplay videos/reviews to calling and talking to retailers daily for info and advice both here in Canada and the States. I have been reading hundreds of posts on a couple pinball forums to see what people with experience are saying. I have also played some games this past summer while on vacation in a huge Arcade 6 hours away. I don't have easy access to get to games to play so I have to do the best I can in choosing them. I admit I do get dazzled by all the LE hype but with Sterns from what I have seen there is a differnce in the PF from Pro to LE..correct? I have already ditched a couple games I thought I would like by theme alone but the gamlay demo and reviews changed my mind. My "issue" is I want to buy 3 or 4 games ASAP because we have none at all to play on lol We would "like" 3 or 4 at once because when your family is as large as mine 1 or 2 would be torture for the kids waiting for mom and dad to take a break
Thank you for the welcomes and YES my husband and do indeed have the fever! I think after we get a couple games to "play" with it will be better?? After waiting for 20 years we finally get to build our families dream game room All 9 of our kids are stoked as we are already adivid Video gamers!
Thanks again for the advice!

Somehow, I see another price increase before the Hobbit is released...

Use your MasterCard, it doubles your warranty up to 2 years total.

To be fair... His LE was way cheaper than a Standard.

Man, 9 kids at home!!!.......I don't know if I'm impressed or terrified......yes, you need, many, many pins ( of course, most do offer multiplayer), my 2 cents....WCS94 is loads of fun, reasonable in cost, and suspect all would love it...billions and billions of points!!!

Whoops, saw the "multiple" kids issue, mine love Spiderman and NBA Fastbreak for ease of play and understanding.....and of course Woz for the family.....

Thank you to all those that were going to buy a standard and have changed their mind. I will get my ECLE sooner now!!

I am wondering if this was the same guy a while back that was offering pinball lessons that included a ham sandwich and a Shasta!

It's crazy that this thread has no input from an operator. One of the biggest reasons in the huge increase in NIB pin prices is because the majority of them are being bought for HUO. Stern and JJP are simply catering to the market. If operators were as active in pinball forums as collectors you can bet your last dollar that prices would be much cheaper. And what a dilemma for pinball. If people can't find and fall in love with pinball in the wild, pinball WILL eventually go the way of the dinosaur. Once again there will be a glut of pinball machines sitting around collecting dust in warehouses with no market of buyers. So maybe some of us in 20 or 30 years will finally be able to pick up our 'dream' collection on the cheap...
Have fun blinging out your HUO pins, but please make it your sacred duty to keep pinball alive for the long haul. Drop some quarters in the pins you see on location. If they are beat up- leave a friendly note for the op. Leave some free credits on them so someone else might take a chance on a free game and get hooked. I would hate to think that one day we will all be reminiscing about the good old days when pins were still in production! I can still remember the gut punched feeling I had the day I found out Bally went out of the silverball business. I certainly don't want to experience that feeling again if Stern and JJP close shop. Operators are not going to pay 10K for a new pin to put on route. Keep operators in business and they will become a very loud voice in the ears of JJP and Stern to keep the NIB prices down.

Side note to ManiacMama: The best advice I have ever heard about owning a pinball machine is this: As soon as you own a machine you get two hobbies- playing pin and fixing pin. Even when your NIB TH arrives it will most likely require some tweaking. Find a rundown pin cheap and learn how to fix it. Even if it isn't on your list of 'wants' the experience you gain from learning how to find issues, soldier, rebuild flippers etc. will be invaluable as your collection grows...

I have a feeling prices are much cheaper for Operator's.....If you remember, JJP offered only WOZLE's for the first 6-8 month's..(to us, never said there was a standard available)., until 8 month's later...
Then, when it came time to build and ship them,. , OH, they had to build and ship to OP's for their standard WOZ's..??
And said they ordered EARLY...well, they never told us they had standard's prior to 6-8 month's , and for what price.??
If the WOZLE'"s were going for $6500 , what were the standard's going for?
I would of bought a standard at that time, it was never offered to the masses...(that I know of, anybody?)

nicely said...

I agree with many here that $8k - more like $7,200 for me - is a price where I stop even being truly interested. Just like Im not interested in a Mercedes at $60K (or more!) but I'm still wishful and considerate of the Audi or Beamer at $50K. I think both "major" manufacturers have found the ceiling. And this ever increasing ceiling - up until now - has artificially supported the used market, which has also, by association now found a ceiling.

It's when a majority of the people WITH discretionary income are no longer compelled to buy when the top has been reached. In my opinion, from my vantage point, we've arrived. There are NIB MOPLE's piled in warehouses - and homes - languishing at $8k plus (MSRP $7,600). There are NIB XMENLE's doing same at $6K, and TFLE's at $5K. The bloom is off the STLE rose at $7,800. JJP is making one last ditch effort to glean extra margin off of WOZ while he can.

I don't know what kind of games will be made in 2014, but we've seen a run of nice pro's lately from Stern and true luxury from JJP. What I do believe is that prices should be stable or falling a bit for upcoming machines, and we just may actually settle into a more stable, predictable hobby...hopefully with killer, affordable games.

I'm also encouraged that I'm seeing new games in new locations. I'm hopeful that these games earn well and compel operators to run out more and more games. Also GREAT for the hobby.

The $8k price probably better reflects the true cost of production, but how many can they sell at that price?

Plus most pinheads know the LEs were $6500.... Some/most might balk at paying such a large jump out of principle. I'll be curious to see how this shakes out. Once all 1000 LEs are in the market and lots of HUO sales start, where will the market determine the price...

Pinballers concerned about the price of the hobby going up?

Try golf. Or boats. Build a hot rod.

A fellow collector told me one day that if there is one common trait among us, we are about the cheapest bunch out there. Anything we sell is worth twice what we paid for it, anything we want to buy is worth half what we want to pay.

Even at 8k, a WOZ isn't that bad a deal when you compare to other stuff people buy for "fun".

They were $6500 for a while but there was certainly a significant number sold after the initial bump. Standards (without upgrades) were also originally FS at $6500.

I simply think the game cost way more to make than they thought. Revisions to boards to correct the faulty LEDs boards couldn't have helped the bottom line.

... and, in general, you recoup a pretty high percentage of your outlay compared to most hobbies. I figure that if I drive a used car and replace it every 10 years that more than compensates for the cost of a few pins, even if I received little back when I sell them.

Given the amount of stuff on and under the playfield, the LCD, computer, cabinet-build, etc., the new price doesn't seem unreasonable vis-à-vis the cost of other NIB pins. I just don't know how affordable it will be in the current market, especially long term. How many $7k+ pins can I justify buying? Very few. I'm pretty sure that's typical.

Heh. I love these concrete conclusions that so many just lazily assume as fact.

Stern Price increase (with every new release over the past three years): "Oh well, that's the cost of doing business. Don't buy it if you don't like the pricetag!"

JJP Price increase: "Well, isn't it obvious? Jack must now be broke."

Well, and how many $8k pins can the pinball community support? I can see a run of LEs for any title getting gobbled up if the game was good, but after that how many more potential sales are there? I'm sure JJP would like to sell many thousands of WOZ. I'm not sure if that will be possible.

Stern is showing that the $5k Pro is what it takes to move large numbers.

I know there IS a market for a top quality game like WOZ who will pay the price, but how many units will that be?

And that's the rub....I can 'afford' a bunch of them. However, I cannot justify buying one at that price, based on the fun factor and enjoyment, when I can buy a $2K 80's or early 90's on the used market and have nearly as much fun, if not more. While a certain percentage of the hobby will continue to buy NIB because it's the latest and greatest, I think as prices increase, that percentage decreases. I thought that $5K was about the limit of a sustainable NIB price for the average joe in this hobby. At $8K, I just don't see it being sustainable.

Food for thought...What happens when China starts shipping the same knockoff's for $3 to $4K? What happens to Stern and JJP then? Alot of people like to compare this hobby to cars...Look what happened to Detroit big three when Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, Nissan started shipping quality products at a cheaper price. Detroit crashed hard because they foolishly thought they could continue to provide a marginal product at inflated costs. Maybe China or a number of the boutique entries like Skit-B or Ghost Squad will supply $5K machines and relieve some of the stranglehold that Stern currently has. Something's going to break.

Wow, this couldn't be more true when your talking about WoZLE vs WoZ Standard...

Exactly, I wouldn't buy Le now versus a standard, got it for 6500 Tony, a great deal!

I'm a believer now of play it first (in most cases) and hopefully buy it cheaper later, I believe that's from the school of Teekee isn't it?

Ah, its always nice to hear from one of my many students...

Yes, I am a believer in true LE's... 500 or less and hopefully less. When you start getting over 500 its not an LE. That being the case there better be something really cool and really different about it versus the other models. This is where WoZ fails. The Standard and the LE are basically the same pin inside and out and will even have the same type of production numbers... I doubt there will be many more than 1000 WoZ Standards out there as well.

I would love to see LE's limited to 300-400 max. If that's the case I am willing to pay a premium.

of course you would like that! with your connections you could get 10-15 le's to flip for an even greater premium to an even greater sucker.

looks like stern and jjp have taken away your ability to milk the community on your flips with ensuring enough le's for all the suckers that want them.

The true suckers are the ones buying the LE's that are over produced and paying the big bucks like yourself... your a sucker and you don't even know it! I like you!

I'm simply trying to give my customers what they want... a true LE!

yes.

A true LE? Didn't you just buy two WOZLE's?

Yes I did! Some people have fallen into that trap like Vex... over hyped, overproduced pin. Must buy, Must have, will pay big bucks... I sell to those people as well!

I think they've both (Gary & Jack) figured out the market will support an 8-10K price point. If Stern successfully sells out STLE at 8500 list, Jack mirroring him at 500 less doesn't surprise me a bit. With the exception of Tron LE, what recent LE editions have had anything that made them worth a 40% premium over the pro?

Ok, but true cost is 7700 on Stern and at that price they are still sitting. WOZ regulars at 8 are not jumping off the shelves either.

Overhyped and thankfully JJP delivered

if i was a sucker i am sure we would have done a deal by now. i like playing them and have no use for an le from any manufacturer.

i am a premium/standard whore.

I don't think with TH they are even calling it an "LE" but rather an "SE"......In my mind 250 or so is around the true LE for me but definitely not over 500......

They should have 3 tiers, a 250 version, 500 version and then the standard! Or just make one pin and let people menu mod it like what pinballrefinery is doing........

You do see some of that. But you see a lot of "Gary's greedy" as well.

Price increases seem to cut both ways for both companies. If they need to raise prices for financial reasons they're "going broke" or "close to closing their doors." If they're raising prices because the market can withstand it they're "greedy" or "ruining the hobby." There's really no winning with the cynical side of the hobby.

Isnt it time to customize one at a time online?

Like Autos, Ala carte pricing.

Order your base pin....Add LEDs, $200
Add Powder coating, your color choice, $200.
Upgraded, Toy, $50
Add another $50 each.
Wireforms $200
Upgrade speakers $150
Autographed something $100
Translite choices +$$$
Cabinet Art Choices +$$$
Glow Balls, Peanut butter, electric door locks, GPS, alarm System...

Why Not let anyone start at say $4000 and they build what you order online.
90% is the same off the assembly line, and all the bells and whistles like a car, ad up to profit.
Everyones is different. Price policing becomes harder, and resale values are all over.

Its what we do with MODs anyone, why not "offer" them?

Just a thought....Still hung over.

^^^ this.

Just me, FYI. Lyman did the OS and added support for some of the crazy crap I wanted to do.