Early adopters had the chance to get a lower price. I'd say they need the extra money for Hobbit. They will be caught up by game #3 (which I know will really draw in kids).

Probably increased to reflect actual costs - there's a bootie-load of tech in there and that stuff ain't cheap...

I'm sending $8500 just to be on the safe side...

THLE will really be 10k by next Christmas.

$8k is bonkers, I don't care how well it is built.

That's the standard for $8k?

Wow.

I think it is already in Holland. 7750 euro is close to 10k dollar i think?

But WOZ LE is even more expensive, 8000 euro atm. (not in stock, not sure you still can order one)

Insain prices. This is coming close to the minimum year income in Holland. Holland, one of the richest countries in the world.

LMAO

Its simply a ploy that can work one of two ways... naive buyers will rush in and pay the increase because they fear its going through the roof or the smart ones who can see right through this will keep their money in their wallets.

Wish I was closer, GLWTS.

Considering startup costs, development costs, delays, redesigns and the BOM for this machine I doubt they will ever come close to breaking even on WoZ even if they sell a boatload at 8K. Fortunately they should be able to make some money on future games, but I expect more price increases on the horizon.

What happened? The other thread said prices were going down. Doesn't Jack read this forum?

WOW way too much

Low play Stern LEs are going for mid 4K that is the best bang for your buck in the pinball market right now.
I was offered a standard WoZ for my PotC and passed on it, there will be plenty of these around the resale has already started and in a year you won't be able to swing a broken STTNG cannon loom without hitting one.

Yes he does read the forums. Don't you remember? He told us they were selling for $12k on the secondary market. Once he realized prices were barely breaking $8k he decided to try to do something about that... nice ploy!

If Stern tried this... Ohh my, I can only imagine!

After JJP saw what "the only maker of real pinball machines on the planet" latest offering is, the price increase is probably justified in their minds.

Maybe actual build costs are very high for WOZ. Just look at what's in game. Not trying to bash Stern but even a WOZ standard is far more feature loaded then a Stern LE not to mention that its a wide body game with an LCD, real stainless steel lock down bar, still includes a topper, head phone jack, rear audio out and stereo sound. Even at the Stern LE level you can get none of those things so if Stern has to charge $7.5k + for an LE to stay afloat I can see why JJP would have to charge $8k for what their standards include.

A lot of the collectors out there do not have that much money and I feel if he wants to sell more units at some point he will have to produce a more friendly priced game for the people out there that can only spend 4500.

Stern is going to sell a boatload more of their Pros

i guess after the stle price increase jjp had to compete on keeping woz prices higher, i am so glad there is competition in pinball. all we need is a third pinball company then prices should really get competitive at 10,000 a machine

You have a great point. Maybe it would be a good idea for JJP to offer a standard without a clear coated cabinet (use decals instead), drop the headphone jack, maybe use something else instead of stainless steel for the lockdown bar and side rails. Not sure what other reductions could take place while still having the same gameplay features. If they could get the standard back down to $7k, even $6.5k that may be good for them.

At $8k, you can't help but start looking at these pins as investments ... NOT because they are, but because most of us can't take a big hit on the resale value should we decide not to keep them. You start to consider a $4k pin and $4k in stock as a better allocation of your money.

Pinball is headed down a scary road... Prices out of control, remakes coming? Over production of the so called LE's, something's gotta give.

I was offerd a NIB POTC for 5k and passed on it. I'm just not fond of that game (maybe we are both crazy)

If WOZ is a good earner on location, then Jacks quote about it not mattering what it costs will hold true. if the ROI is there, he'll sell them.

We home buyers may still be a small part of the market, perhaps the new pricing isn't going after us.

If you want to pass that person my info, I'd make that trade.

I have to agree as there are are so many available Pin dollars out there.

I can see that WOZ (and The Hobbit, in all likelihood) is very expensive to build, and in that sense I can understand and sympathize with the price increase. I don't mind paying a bit more to get significantly more. My concern is that JJP not price itself out of the market. That is where Stern, with the pro at least, has a distinct advantage. To be clear, I want both companies to succeed, but they are both approaching stratospheric price levels, at least for me. I don't want to see this mini-boom come crashing down for any firm producing or supporting pinball. Perhaps JJP could get to the point of offering a lower-priced line at some point (that is, a separate, not stripped-down, line of pins). It's a conundrum, I'm sure.

Exactly. Could a company make a $15k pinball machine that is even more feature loaded then WOZ with an LCD in the head, the playfield and apron with even more complex toys? Yes but would they sell enough of them to stay in business? I doubt it. For me $7.5k for a Hobbit LE was already way more then I wanted to spend so I've reached my price ceiling.

New Sterns and JJP increases just add to pinflation as you now have to look at 8k for one game or grab 2 or 3 great lesser Bally or Williams games ( better value in my book.). Just means you are paying that increase even if your not buying their games.

I don't see how the hell they're going to be sustainable at this price point. A headphone jack isn't worth 500$. A rear sound output isn't worth another 500$. Hate to tell you guys but I can install a PINPAC in like 30 minutes, and add a high level output for my external sub in about 10 minutes, for about 75 cents to boot. And the "standards" don't even come with invisiglass or a shaker, right? How the bloody crap are they justifying this as anything more than greed or funding development of Hobbit?

There was already talk they were dropping the clearcoat cab for Hobbit, which frankly I think is a huge mistake at the price point they're asking, but since Stern is just bending everyone over for an 8k 800-unit LE it's really hard for us to come back and say that it's not worth the money. >=\

*Edit* At least Stern isn't changing prices on the SAME GAME on the fly....scuzz...

If I remember correctly, when WoZ was announced it was to be a flagship game with extra features and expenses that would not necessarily be in later games. Maybe they were just talking about the removable apron, but I see no reason it couldn't mean the clearcoated cabinet or making some of the other frills optional. Clearcoated cabinet is all well and good, but I'd rather have the extra $500 in my pocket or on the playfield somewhere.

I was waiting for the price to go down. I guess I won't be getting one.

How the heck is Skit-B selling their Predator at 5 gees then?

Back when BBB was finally shipped Gene reportedly lost $1500-2000 per machine. Not to mention that he already had a lot of the boards and parts on hand at the start of the project.

They'll drop down eventually.

I really want to order The Hobbit, but fear this Ponzi Scheme method of requiring prepaymet for a game that is not even in production yet. It would scare the shit out of me actually.

The original WOZ preorder in 2011 would of scared me alot more than a Hobbit pre order now that JJP has infrastructure in place and is building games.

the 500$ is going in a pocket, just not yours.

Wait a minute. Aren't costs supposed to go down as the process gets streamlined and refined. Efficiencies exploited and maximized so either:
A. You can maximize profits while holding the current pricing model or....
B. Lower cost per unit while still maintaining the same profit yield.

We are being told that assembly is picking up and they are running wide open. Wasn't the idea to run the Woz standard pony until the legs came off? Why would costs go up? I know production delays have spiked costs but I would think a lower price point (or holding the current one) with greater penetration is the best way to recoup.

Something is amiss.

............trade a WOZ for what ? POTC ????? really , you passed ? you my friend missed out on a phenomenal game,,, even by price point , it was a good deal to trade......

the other thing that this might be (if people actually stop and think about it) a wake up call for is the assumption that all future jjp machines will be built with the same "build quality" (however someone chooses to define it) as woz is...

if price is being raised because the bom is so high in cost, and the price is unsustainable, guess where the cost cutting is going to start?

I think a pinball price correction is long overdue. As much as I like pinball, it's hard for me to wrap my head around anyone paying $8,000 for a pinball machine in the home environment. It's one thing if it's on route and paying for itself...Doesn't matter what it costs then as long as the ROI is decent. But for a pure home environment, it's crazy to me. I believe what has fueled this mindset is the thought that costs can always be recouped or even make a little profit. When you can convince yourself that even if I pay $8,000, I'll be able to get that back when I'm tired of it, it makes spending that much $ more palatable. But what happens when those paying $8,000 experience real depreciation like every other commodity in the world? The market collapses, sanity returns, and a price correction ensues. And what happens to Stern and JJP when noone is rushing to buy $8,000 LE's? If their mark ups are real and it costs them that much to build, then expect Stern to return to RCT's and AP's in terms of features and quality. If they stay at their current pricing, then the hobby will become a boutique niche for the rich and famous, and production numbers will decline greatly. It's going to be a bumpy ride I believe over the next couple of years.

Dude i agree!! Bad form man ! Bad form!
I love potc but against woz ?? Should of made the trade!

Well, I think JJP started figuring out a while ago that the machines would cost them more to build. It was wishful thinking to charge $6500 at startup for an LE. That number soon began escalating until they sold out. TH went on the block for $7500 then quickly went up to 8k. I'm expecting that to go up as well for the LE, and God knows how much they'll sell the regular models for. People have noted in many posts that the build quality is superior to Stern, and for that you pay a premium. I think JJP is still figuring out where they need their price point to be to stay afloat and make a healthy profit. And if they decide that they need to charge more to build a high-quality product, then I'm still in for TH and whatever comes down the pike (unless I HATE the theme). You can't buy a Lexus and expect to pay Scion prices.

Many people sell their machines after a few years when they get tired of it. If I choose to sell my WOZ down the road, I can easily get 5K for it at some point if I take good care of it, and I'll be happy knowing that the joy it gave me was worth the difference in the cost when I bought it. Cars work the same way...why should pinball be different? If you choose to keep it, it's because you love it, and that makes it worth whatever inflated cost you paid. As Trump would say, you charge what the market can bear. And if JJP can keep selling them at that price, then God bless 'em!

Except you'll be flipping them next month saying they're worth $12,000. Should those people do the smart thing and keep the money in their wallets?

And keep in mind that pinball, like stocks, should only be bought with disposable income. If it's going to keep you from paying the mortgage or putting food on the table, you have no business buying it.

What is it, 3 years now? I surely hope that's not the case. If they don't know their manufacturing costs by now, well lets just say they have bigger problems.

Absolutely! I try to only deal with the dumb ones...

They've only been making them since May. The rest was R&D, and it's a startup company. I think they're still settling in. With sales approaching 2000 machines so far, I'm not too worried about their future. I think TH will hit it out of the park - they seem to be a company that listens to what people say and learns from mistakes (like the dim GI).