(Topic ID: 146417)

Another Gottlieb Baseball question...score motor "delayed".


By DPhillips1965

3 years ago



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  • 37 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by DirtFlipper
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

I'll tell ya, when I get somethig working correctly it seems I screw up a few things (that worked fine before) in the process.
The latest..
When tripping the "single" "double" "triple" or "home run" PF switches the appropriate relay engages and stays energized...then nothing. The score motor should turn to do it's thing but doesn't.

No points, chimes, etc for these features until I either...
1) manually give the score motor a slight turn...then it spins, awards and resets the relays...all good.
2) Drain the ball ( engage the PF switch) .... score motor turns and all is well.

What am I missing? There is a common cause that my newbness can't overcome.
All relay switches are properly gapped and have good connectivity when contacts are made.
If I read this correctly, activation of any of these should activate the score motor (1C) immediately.
I can see no loose/broken wires or connections.

Oh yea...varitargets have the same delayed behavior.

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#2 3 years ago

On your schematic you will see the score motor section similar as per the below image. This schematic is from a Gottlieb 'Pro Football' & will differ to yours, however the principal is the same. On each relay associated with the PF switches you mention there is a set of contacts on each relay which when closed will power the score motor. The problem you have may be a loose connection/break (open circuit) somewhere in the lines which feeds the switches following the score motor itself (left to right) or motor contacts 1C (right to left).

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#3 3 years ago

could be the "home" position on motor, maybe? I dont have that pin, but have hurd of the score motor over running, or under running the home position, and this can cause the same result??? just a guess

#4 3 years ago

Well, all other features work and the awards in question will score after the ball drains...weird.
The motor itself stops at the gap and has very little play otherwise
On occasion, when starting a game, the motor will continue to run with a ball in the lane and everything reset on the PF (lights and such).
This is a new behavior and requires a power off/on .... drain the ball....and try again at which point the motor may or not take one step and I'm good to go...except for the original problem.

More a timing thing i guess...i dunno

#5 3 years ago
Quoted from DPhillips1965:

If I read this correctly, activation of any of these should activate the score motor (1C) immediately.

That's not a correct way to read it. In this section of the schematic, the logic "flows" right to left, so in this case, the normally closed switch at motor 1C needs to be closed in order to complete any of those paths to the various runs relays.

On the left are all the coil symbols, and the path to any one of them has to go through the series of switches as indicated, reading it right to left (although it's often easier to start at the coil, and trace the path back, left to right).

So as noted above, to see what causes the score motor to run (or not, in this case), find the score motor symbol (an 'M' in a circle), and then there will be a group of normally open switches drawn in parallel. Any one of them closing will cause the score motor to run, and the score motor will continue to run as long as any one of them is closed.

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

the normally closed switch at motor 1C needs to be closed in order to complete any of those paths to the various runs relays.

On the Baseball schematic, Motor 1C is drawn as normally open. EDIT

(See Below)
Ahemm! I was referring to the position Motor 1C on the Schematic that is drawn with the M with the circle around it. I should have been more clear. Thanks to Dirt for the correction.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from Darcy:

On the Baseball schematic, Motor 1C is drawn as normally open.

There are several switches at position motor 1C; the section of the schematic highlighted by the OP is showing a normally closed motor 1C switch used to feed the runs relays, not the motor 1C switch that feeds the score motor to keep it running.

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#8 3 years ago

Enlisted the help of a local Pinsider (much appreciated btw ) but were unable to complete the puzzle.
We checked states of switches on many relays and the score motor itself and came up empty.
Thinking the "I" (50 pt) was the common connection but saw nothing out of place.

Just to recap...all these features worked at one point and suddenly stopped. Can't remember exactly what I was doing at the time.
There must be a common connection that would affect the single/ double/ triple / varitarget relays. The home run relay will reset all of them and run the score motor. The rest will not activate the motor. Gotta be something simple yet elusive that would affect 4 things all at once.

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#9 3 years ago

Just to clarify, I took some notes.
Tripping the PF "single" rollover .... energizes the E relay
Tripping the PF "double" rollover....energizes the E&D relays
Tripping the PF "triple" rollover....energizes the E&D&T relays
Tripping the "home run" PF rollover....energizes E,D,T and H relays
Varitarget energizes the E,D,T or H depending on position

In each case, the score motor does not turn and requires manual activation of the "I" (50pt) relay to award, etc and reset the appropriate relay.

#10 3 years ago

Additional notes -

Activating the top #1, #2 or #3 rollover trips the correct A.B or C relay changing the lights correctly, but doesn't score the 50 points as it should..again the "I" relay (50pts).

Basically, all 9 rollovers in the game do not score points.
They are tied to "I" or motor 1C / 2B from what I can tell.

#11 3 years ago

So on your schematic you'll see the various switches that cause the score motor to run: W, E, I, O, S, SB, and one at motor position 1C (these are just the ones in parallel, ignoring the reset path that also causes it to run via a DB2 switch).

The only two that are related to scoring/game play are E and I. W, O, S, and SB are usually all on the score motor board, so are near the score motor. But where are E and I located? The path from I apparently is working, since manually activating I does cause the score motor to run. But the path from E to the score motor might be suspect.

Otherwise, the E and I relays don't have very much in common, so it might be better to debug one at time for now.

E should energize whenever either "Single" rollover switch closes. E should stay energized ("locked on") via its own switch, and a normally closed switch at motor position 2B. But a switch closing on E when it energizes should also cause the score motor to run (which in turn will de-activate E when the switch at position motor 2B does open).

It won't score the 100 points either without the score motor running, since it needs the first pulse of the score motor to do so.

I think the simplest thing to do would be to focus on the switch on E that is supposed to cause the score motor to run, and the path from there to the score motor. Looks like one side of that switch is going to be with a GR+RED wire.

Now, the I relay is a different path. The I relay is directly energized via the three top rollovers switches, or the two "2" standup targets switches. Once energized, the I relay should stay locked on via its own switch and until a switch at score motor 2B opens. If none of those five playfield switches energizes the I relay, then it's either the I relay coil, or there's a common open in the path.

Since the I relay has a lock-on path, if you manually activate I and it locks on and holds while the score motor runs, then the coil is fine. That then means there's a common open in the path. If that's the case, then the thing to consider is where is the I relay located relative to the playfield switches? If the I relay is on the score motor board, or is in the backbox, then there's at least a Jones plug involved.

So in both cases, it could be as simple as a Jones plug possibly, depending on where E and I are located.

#12 3 years ago

Looking over my schematics, I'd agree with the incomparable DirtFlipper. I'd check the relay E's switch with Red-wt / Gr-red for power. Attach a multimeter to ground (black) somewhere, and test the red-wt. If it's got power, test on gr-red and manually engage the relay. If the switch is working and properly adjusted, gr-red will power while the relay's held. 90% chance of the switch being dirty or maladjusted. Or even just use alligator clips or a screwdriver to bypass the switch and touch the solder points of the red-wt and gr-red wires on that switch.

I read somewhere or someone told me once to get out the good old alligator clips. Attach one end to the score motor's supply connection (gr-red) and the other bypassing all switches that would be use to activate it and connecting to red-wt. All while powered up. It should make the score motor run. Then take it off red-wt and put it on the next step in the chain. Like the red-wt on the E relay switch. If you're getting juice to that point, it'll run again. Then the opposite side of that switch (gr-red). And following it down that way. Tracing the circuit that way should eventually get you to a spot that should have power and doesn't. Dirty or maladjusted switch, busted wire, dirty jones plug, etc etc should be much easier to find once you pinpoint the spot in the chain. This method bypasses all the variables (various switches, connections, and wiring) and allows you to reintroduce them one by one until you find the one that doesn't work.

#13 3 years ago

If those switches listed above check good, verify the Jones Plugs from the playboard to the bottom board are properly seated. Also, look for a broken wire on the topside of them.

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from DPhillips1965:

Tripping the PF "single" rollover .... energizes the E relay
Tripping the PF "double" rollover....energizes the E&D relays
Tripping the PF "triple" rollover....energizes the E&D&T relays
Tripping the "home run" PF rollover....energizes E,D,T and H relays
Varitarget energizes the E,D,T or H depending on position

So from this we know that the playfield switch, the plug and wiring from play field to bottom board where the score motor and relays are is good. Where is the signal supposed to go from the E, D, T or H relays? To a point relay(1, 10, 100) in the backboard? To the I relay? All the relays and coils test fine, the signal just seems to end at the appropriate relay instead of going on to wherever it should to complete the scoring and reset said relay.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from Mk1Mod0:

So from this we know that the playfield switch, the plug and wiring from play field to bottom board where the score motor and relays are is good.

So is the 'E' relay on the score motor board? If so, then it has a wire that joins in on the path to run the score motor. That's the path to focus on. D, T, and H can all be ignored for now, and E does not feed a signal to I.

#16 3 years ago

Thanks to all for the advice. Quite a bit to take in but, I'll digest it slowly.

This is the "E" or "single" relay.
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#17 3 years ago

And where is the "I" relay located?

#18 3 years ago

Right here

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#19 3 years ago

Ok, good. So look for the GR+RED wire on the "I" relay on the switch there that causes the score motor to run. Then follow it over to the E relay and look for an open. The switch on E that closes and should run the score motor is losing the signal, but apparently it's reaching at least from the "I" relay to the motor. That's for the issue of E energizing, but not running the score motor.

Then the issue of "I" not energizing from the playfield switches is going to be about checking the wire on the "I" coil there back to the Jones plug where the playfield plugs in, and then up to the playfield. There's an open along that path to also find.

This is where using jumper wires to help isolate come in handy.

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from Polonius:

Attach one end to the score motor's supply connection (gr-red) and the other bypassing all switches that would be use to activate it and connecting to red-wt. All while powered up. It should make the score motor run. Then take it off red-wt and put it on the next step in the chain. Like the red-wt on the E relay switch. If you're getting juice to that point, it'll run again. Then the opposite side of that switch (gr-red). And following it down that way.

Followed directions and might be onto something here....That switch appears to be making contact but, needs a little prodding w/ a toothpick to get the motor running.

Lemme clean / adjust it AGAIN...I'll report back.

#21 3 years ago

You guys are AWESOME!

I wound up disassembling the suspect switch stack so I could really get in there and polish those contacts. A little tweaking to make a good connection and BAM...I have a functional game...so far.

Words cannot express my sincere gratitude for all the help.

A manly handshake along with a heartfelt sigh of relief / success / joy are sent to everyone.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

#22 3 years ago

Glad to hear it! Are your 1, 2, and 3 lights all turning on and off when there's players on the various bases? (Like 1 being lit to put a man on first base, but unlit if there's already someone on first) Mine sure aren't! Those switches are brutal to adjust.

#23 3 years ago

So cool!!!

#24 3 years ago

Works pretty well Id say...

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from Polonius:

Glad to hear it! Are your 1, 2, and 3 lights all turning on and off when there's players on the various bases? (Like 1 being lit to put a man on first base, but unlit if there's already someone on first) Mine sure aren't! Those switches are brutal to adjust.

It took awhile to get the make/breaks ... moreover, the small actuator plates to work reliably...so far so good.
I took apart just about everything on this machine except the score motor and reset bank. Learned a lot and keeping an eye out for my "next project".

#26 3 years ago

Nice machine! Mine's definitely rougher. Looks like your 10 point bell isn't working? Also, are those flashers in the pops?

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from Polonius:

Looks like your 10 point bell isn't working?

Watched the video a few times. The 10 point chime is not chiming on the Pop Bumpers. When they are not lit. The scoring is working, on the Pops. The 10 point chime is also sounding on the 4 lit base star roll overs.

FWI: 1970 Gottlieb Baseball is the first US made pinball machine with the lit Star Roll Overs.

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from Polonius:

Also, are those flashers in the pops?

Yes those are flashers. I'm going to EM Hell for that sin but, its visualy intresting and lends a little animation to the playfield.
I tried rainbow blinkers.... bad...very bad.

Quoted from Darcy:

The 10 point chime is not chiming on the Pop Bumpers. When they are not lit. The scoring is working, on the Pops. The 10 point chime is also sounding on the 4 lit base star roll overs.

Yea, now that I think about it...pops should chime 10..... something ELSE ... lol.
The star rollovers chime and score 10 as well (working correctly)...if that's what your saying / asking.

#29 3 years ago

Eh, I can't blame you for trying something to spice it up a bit. I've been thinking of swapping a couple strategy-critical bulbs (like the play-more post in Power Play) with bright LEDs. I just have a hard time seeing if they're lit or not, if they're not lit when they're lit.

#30 3 years ago
Quoted from DPhillips1965:

Yea, now that I think about it...pops should chime 10..... something ELSE ... lol.

Got that fixed. The orange/white leaf on the G relay. (honing my basic schematic reading skills... baby steps)

Quoted from Polonius:

Eh, I can't blame you for trying something to spice it up a bit.

My Son (11) digs it. For him, it's all about getting the pops lit.

Having a final issue but, not repeatable.
When starting a new game...either from power on or after finishing a game and hitting the reset button...

- Game resets, pf lights, score reels, etc, all good.
- kicks a ball into the shooter lane but, motor continues to run and no ball 1 light

I have to depower the game, plunge the ball and let it drain, turn the game back on, hit the reset button, at which point the game kicks a ball into the shooter lane and good to go.

As I write this (figures) the game is working fine. More of an inconvenience than an issue. I'm just diggin being able to play ... lol. It's one of these...when the game screws up and after I power off, take the glass off, prop up the pf and get ready to see what's happening...game works fine. Last time, when I just let it run and opened up the game to observe, wound up blowing a 15amp fuse.

#31 3 years ago

My first impulse is the switch the ball trips between outhole and plunger lane being out of adjustment, but I suppose that would then happen on any ball, not just the first of a game. Hm.... There must be a relay tripped at the end of the reset sequence that isn't happening..... I'll have to check later sometime....

#32 3 years ago

I re-gapped the drain hole switch and checked the ball return relay..looks good far as I can tell.
Wierd...I can manually activate the switches with the PF up through all 5 balls to game over and reset...works great and consistent.
If the game sits..it's hit or miss.
If I open the game and remove the ball from the drain...then power up and reset...it quietly waits for me add the ball...does its thing and kicks it out ready to go. That's gotta be a clue I figure.

Anyway, not a huge deal...but suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

#33 3 years ago

Did you clean or at least re-seat all of the Jones Plugs in the machine?

#34 3 years ago

Alrighty... Again, I'm no expert, but I have an idea. If the motor is still running, something hasn't happened that lets it stop. Meaning that one of those switches is staying on instead of turning off again in the motor circuit. I'm thinking maybe it's not the W,E,I,O,S,SB, or motor 1C switches, but maybe the DB2/TB combo.

While waiting for ball 1 light to light up, is the game over light still lit? Maybe it's something to do with the ball counter. Either not firing, or the ball 1 connection is iffy.

Or possibly, the ball count zero position switch isn't adjusted right and so the DB1 isn't firing?

Just some mediocre guesses....

#35 3 years ago
Quoted from DPhillips1965:

I can manually activate the switches with the PF up

Check all the rollover switches for one that is 'sagging' when the playfield is down. Especially the 'Single' rollovers, since they can activate the 'E' relay, and 'E' can cause the score motor to run.

Otherwise, go back through the list of relays that have switches that cause the score motor to run: W, E, I, O, S, SB. One has a switch closed, so need to first determine which one it is.

#36 3 years ago

Let's say- to be specific-

game is off (no power) with a ball in the shooter lane. (not the drain hole)
Power up the game and push reset button....lights, score motor runs for a sec, reels reset, game over light turns off, tilt light off, no ball 1 light, quiet and unresponsive...all good.
Plunge the ball and let it drain....kicks ball to shooter lane, ball 1 light, no score motor, ready to play...all good.

I'll have a look at those relays mentioned.

Thanks and a Merry Christmas / Happy Holiday / whatever your flavor...to all.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Check all the rollover switches for one that is 'sagging' when the playfield is down. Especially the 'Single' rollovers, since they can activate the 'E' relay, and 'E' can cause the score motor to run.
Otherwise, go back through the list of relays that have switches that cause the score motor to run: W, E, I, O, S, SB. One has a switch closed, so need to first determine which one it is.

placed folded paper to block all rollover contacts...no difference but excellent idea.

Quoted from MrBally:

Did you clean or at least re-seat all of the Jones Plugs in the machine?

Yep. All Jones plugs have been removed, cleaned, and shined, receptacles as well...a few times.

#37 3 years ago

Well, if the difference is that consistent with the ball being in the outhole or absent, then that might suggest focusing on the outhole switch, or the 'O' relay (Ball Return relay). If the outhole switch isn't opening fully after the ball kicks out, then the 'O' relay will keep energizing, and that will keep the score motor running. But the outhole kicker should keep firing too. Does it?

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