Announcing new product to help resolve resets in WPC era games

(Topic ID: 83912)

Announcing new product to help resolve resets in WPC era games


By rkahr

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 455 posts
  • 180 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 40 days ago by ChrisPINk25
  • Topic is favorited by 159 Pinsiders

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There are 455 posts in this topic. You are on page 8 of 10.
#351 2 years ago

I think a lot of this can be traced to the simple act of "reseating" the connector when you install the daughter board. That action alone, without the daughter board, would temporarily buy you some time and "fix" your reset issues for a month or??

I recently started having reset issues with our WCS so, finally having a machine to test these on, I bought a standard and a pro (by the way, amazing shipping, ordered Saturday morning, in hand Monday afternoon.) Before I installed it I followed "the steps" to pinpoint where the issue was in my game, measuring all voltage drops between connectors (where the issue usually occurs) Simply plugging and unplugging J120 raised the voltage sufficiently to make the game stop resetting (from immediately when both flippers pressed to not at all after three or four games.) I still installed the Pro to monitor the LED. Played a few more games and it stayed green. No doubt replacing the header and IDC connector is the final fix but I still want to monitor this LED to see how long reseating connectors helps.

#352 2 years ago

By the way, I believe this is a great product and feel confident that they will be extremely useful if I ever have to get a resetting WPC game up and running immediately. I intend to use them as tools and emergency fixes in much the same way I keep spare Alltek MPUs and SDBs for our Bally games. Though I really don't see an issue with leaving them in full time, other than that inner voice reminding me there's something that needs attention inside the game.

#353 2 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Maybe rkahr can clarify the functionality of that feature.

I can. The MPU uses a MC34064 to make the reset decision based on the 5v supply. The MC34064 has kind of a wide trigger range for dropping voltages (spec'ed to 4.5 min, 4.7v max, 4.59 typical). The Pro Daughterboard uses a Maxim Integrated's Max835 using the data sheet's recommended circuitry to target 4.7 as the trip voltage - so near the top of the MC34064 range. It has a min/typ/max trigger spec as well and the resistor circuitry will broaden that chip's range in the Daughterboard implementation, but it is not as wide as the MC34064.

So why would you never see red? Could be several reasons or a combination of reasons... Some already touched upon (or around) in the recent discussion...

1. Removing the MPU from the 5 volt circuitry does help stabilize it. As discussed in the technical details on my website (http://www.kahr.us/index2.html), the 5v does not fail linearly (when it exceeds a plateau of power delivery, output drops rapidly), so reducing the load (big load, small load, whatever) can keep the supply from reaching the plateau. So it is good news if you never see red because it indicates installing the Daughterboard has stabilized your supply. On my infamous Party Zone, it typically takes 50 to 60 minutes of gameplay for a Pro to detect a reset condition and the machine barely boots without a Daughterboard. As one might expect, reset is typically detected during an exciting multi-ball event. I consider that sufficiently stable to do no additional work on my PDB... and I really like having that increased understanding provided by the monitoring.

2. My Daughterboard monitors the 5v line at a different point than the MPU monitor point. The 5v line enters through a header, pass through an inductor, past some capacitors, and probably some other junk before reaching the MC34064. The Daughterboard monitors BEFORE the J210 header so losses downstream of that are not seen by the Daughterboard (and appropriately so, b/c they are no longer in the PDB 5v circuitry). So, your MPU may be "lossy" on the path to the MC34064, but it doesn't matter because you are delivering solid clean power to it that easily overcomes any such "lossieness". Sorry for making up words but hopefully that makes sense...

3. Thinking about the spec's above, you could happen to have a high-threshold MC34064 that was triggering resets and a Daughterboard that senses below your MPU's threshold. Seems unlikely but it could_ be.

Also remember the Pro's latched output indicators are reset by rebooting the machine. So you shouldn't power up the machine and expect to see whether you've had a reset since you last looked... it's only since you turned the machine on. Turn it on, play a few (or a lot) of games, and then look. Do this every month or two (or three... whatever) and you will have a feel for how your power supply is performing over time.

I hope that helps explain some of what's happening and why the Pro is a good thing to get... if you are actually going to look at it. If you're pretty confident you'll never look then by all means just get the Classic. If it helps you decide, about 30% of the Daughterboards I ship are the Pro version.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync combiner kit

#354 2 years ago

Oh, and I've mentioned it in the TPF thread but not here - KAHR.US Circuits will be at the Texas Pinball Festival again this year. Please stop by and say hello!

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync combiner kit

#355 2 years ago

rkahr, can you comment on this strange scenario:
I've battled with the STTNG intermittent reset problem since I've had this pin, up until 16 months ago, when I installed rkahr's daughter board. That solved the problem up until the last few months. It started taking about 2 or 3 minutes after turning on the machine for it to boot up. D19, D20 and D21 would start out, then dim and eventually get enough power to initialize the mpu. Afterwards it would play fine. In the last month the occasional resets have come back.
Recently I started up a great Borg Multiball and the pin reset. Afterwards the pin would start resetting even if I pressed the flipper button in attract mode. I noticed that LED1 on the power board dims when I press the flipper button in attract mode, and the pin reboots.
Now, taking rkahr's board out of the mix, the pin boots right up, without any delay at all. But the attract mode reset still takes place. With the daughter board installed it takes 2 or 3 minutes to boot up. So, I've taken the daughter board out.
Here's my voltage readings on the power board in attract mode:
TP1 - 11.81
TP2 - 4.81
TP3 - 10.10
TP6 - 75.1
TP7 - 22.1
TP8 - 16.7

I've gone through all the z-connector, reseat ribbon cable, attempts, pinwiki research, etc.
I must be getting a voltage drop when anything tries to take some voltage. Any thoughts?

#356 2 years ago

4.81v at TP2 is damn low....that's low for even PIN32 at the MPU ROM......it should be higher....my fear is the Kahr board carried you as far as it could - but you likely are having a driver repair issue now...

#357 2 years ago

I just installed one of these in my Whitewater and now it works perfectly.
Thanks for a great product!

#358 2 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

rkahr, can you comment on this strange scenario:
I've battled with the STTNG intermittent reset problem since I've had this pin, up until 16 months ago, when I installed rkahr's daughter board. That solved the problem up until the last few months. It started taking about 2 or 3 minutes after turning on the machine for it to boot up. D19, D20 and D21 would start out, then dim and eventually get enough power to initialize the mpu. Afterwards it would play fine. In the last month the occasional resets have come back.
Recently I started up a great Borg Multiball and the pin reset. Afterwards the pin would start resetting even if I pressed the flipper button in attract mode. I noticed that LED1 on the power board dims when I press the flipper button in attract mode, and the pin reboots.
Now, taking rkahr's board out of the mix, the pin boots right up, without any delay at all. But the attract mode reset still takes place. With the daughter board installed it takes 2 or 3 minutes to boot up. So, I've taken the daughter board out.
Here's my voltage readings on the power board in attract mode:
TP1 - 11.81
TP2 - 4.81
TP3 - 10.10
TP6 - 75.1
TP7 - 22.1
TP8 - 16.7
I've gone through all the z-connector, reseat ribbon cable, attempts, pinwiki research, etc.
I must be getting a voltage drop when anything tries to take some voltage. Any thoughts?

If the rkahr board cannot power your MPU board (D21 indicates presence of VCC) then it sounds like you have a problem on your Digital 12 volts. Check F115 and its fuse clips. The Digital 12V is produced off the 18VDC lamp power (TP8) which may or may not be measuring low (16.7). If you know your DVM can tell you if there is AC ripple, check to see if there is any AC on TP8.

#359 2 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

rkahr, can you comment on this strange scenario:

Quoted from Sonic:

....my fear is the Kahr board carried you as far as it could

Sonic and Cactus Jack are on target - Digital 12v is too weak to drive my daughterboard solution. Last sentence on my technical page is "The power supplies still need to be maintained, but no longer do we need to fret over every hundredth of a volt." That's because there is no magic in the board. If the PDB can't deliver power the daughterboard can't create it.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync combiner kit

#360 2 years ago

Thanks guys for pointing me in the direction to go! I'll go through the pinwiki all the way through again and hopefully narrow it down better this time.

#361 2 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Here's my voltage readings on the power board in attract mode:
TP1 - 11.81
TP2 - 4.81

As others have said, those are really low numbers, especially that 5v. Has the driver board had the caps and bridge rectifiers replaced? Is there any significant change to those voltages if you remove power to the dmd driver board and/or the audio board?

#362 2 years ago

I'm going through the pinwiki process right now. Just verified that BR2 is good. It's putting out 10.35 vdc. The next step is to test C5. My meter isn't a great meter, so pinwiki says my measurements may not be correct for C5 (not a true RMS meter). I'm showing 5.33vac.
Regarding dmd driver board, no voltage changes when I test with it plugged/unplugged.
Thanks to you all for helping me troubleshoot this!!!

#363 2 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

I'm going through the pinwiki process right now. Just verified that BR2 is good. It's putting out 10.35 vdc. The next step is to test C5. My meter isn't a great meter, so pinwiki says my measurements may not be correct for C5 (not a true RMS meter). I'm showing 5.33vac.
Regarding dmd driver board, no voltage changes when I test with it plugged/unplugged.
Thanks to you all for helping me troubleshoot this!!!

If you have another working game of any kind (even a video game), check for AC on the 5VDC to see if your meter gives you a voltage (which should not be there) or if you get virtually 0.0VAC. If you get 0, then your 5.33VAC above is your problem.

#364 2 years ago

Hmm, maybe I'm not testing the correct contact point for C5. I get a similar reading on my working T2.
What's my testpoint for testing C5? It looks kinda like J105 pin 1. I do get different readings there between STTNG and T2.
Edit: I went over the pinwiki again. I think the BR2 test connection (dc) is the same for testing C5 (ac). It tests the same as my T2. So, maybe C5 isn't bad? Please confirm how I can test C5. Thanks.

#365 2 years ago

About that....you can't really easily test C5 without access to both leads (back of the board!) and measuring <1VAC (typically 300-400mV)....even at that, the wiki guide can at least get you in the camp of whether your board needs attention or something else - it still seems your driver board needs attention - have you ever had work done to it or know its history?

#366 2 years ago

Thanks for the tips all! So, I've taken out the board and found that BR2 and C5 have been replaced before. Whoever did the repair also did the stitch on the solder side of the board as well. Doesn't look like the best job, but continuity is good. Now, I've tested BR2 and it doesn't test like it should. So, the plan is to replace BR2 and while I'm there, I'll replace C5 and possibly C4 (it's the original).

#367 2 years ago

Just some advice - I'm all about fixing ones pin - well, let me clarify - troubleshooting ones pins, but when it comes to the boards - I've learned the lesson after all this time to send them to the professionals (like John Wart Jr.) who has the test equipment, knowledge and tools to go through the board - for a nominal fee - and perform a more holistic repair to ensure everything is bulletproof and not have to mess with it for another 20 years......just my opinion.....

#368 2 years ago

Good advice. I'll shoot John an email. That'd be a hell of a lot easier for me!

#369 2 years ago

Hey all - I've spent a lot of spare time over the last three months or so reworking my website and this morning I flipped the switch... it is now live. Highlights are:

- some Re-organization so Daughterboards are separate from Williams volume controls and from the P2000 H+V Sync Combiner and from the 3d printed stuff. Williams Volume Controls broken into Type1/Type2 and one-fuse and two-fuse within Type 1.
- jquery-implemented "activity" on the site (the expand/hide functions) which should reduce scrolling to find what you want.
- contact information easily found and embedded in a picture so humans can easily read but spammers can't.
- introduction of a mail order capability. I figure our machines are old-school, so why not accept orders without Paypal.
- somewhat of a more sleek theme in graphics and tabular displays. Previous really had no theme so it really wasn't difficult to push the envelope forward in this area.

I coded it all myself (no templates, but lots of research on the capabilities I used), so undoubtedly there are some imperfections and if you PM me I can fix anything that is glaring to you (but was not obvious to me).

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync combiner kit

#370 2 years ago

Nice update...makes things much easier.

#371 2 years ago

Hi all,

I just posted a new announcement about new 2016 Edition Daughterboards. In summary, the new boards have new monitoring capabilities and improved regulators. Since this thread has collected a few followers over the last two years, here are the details from the other post:

===begin paste===

The most exciting change is in the Pro’s monitoring capabilities. The 2016 Edition Pro Daughterboard simultaneously monitors both the 12 volt and the 5 volt PDB power supplies. Here’s how: (note, for ease of reading I took out LED and instead used all caps for the color of the LED)

- GREEN means both supplies are stable.
- RED still means the PDB 5 volt dropped low (i.e., would have caused a reset without the daughterboard) at some point since game power-on. GREEN turns off when the RED turns on.
- BLUE means the PDB 12 volt digital dropped low (below 9 volts). This is an indication of weakness or instability in the PDB 12 volt derivation. GREEN turns off when BLUE turns on.
- BLUE and RED together means both supplies have exhibited their respective trigger conditions.

Both the red and blue LEDs latch when triggered meaning once lit they will remain illuminated until machine power-down.
Additionally, when powering on your machine you will see a short BLUE blink because the new Pro also monitors the 12 volt power supply startup. The 2016 Edition starts with the BLUE burning until the 12 volt line rises above 10 volt at startup. GREEN will not illuminate until the 12 volt startup condition is met. A long BLUE illumination at startup is an indication of weakness in the PDB 12 volt circuitry.

The new 2016 Edition Pro is a great new way to monitor the relative health of the two power supplies and I hope you find it helpful in monitoring for issues and diagnosing problems.

All of the 2016 Edition Daughterboards have an improved regulator onboard (yes, it is still an ezSBC design – the best in the business), so they can work where the previous version occasionally wouldn’t. Both the Classic and the Pro have the redesigned regulator.

One final note – the prices did not change - $29 for the Classic and $39 for the Pro.... so maybe the most exciting part is what did NOT change!

===end paste===

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams system 3-7 sound board potentiometer solutions

#372 2 years ago

Guess I ordered a few days too early. My pro arrives tomorrow. Looking forward to popping this baby in and reset free, hopefully, unless I got something else going on. Keep up the good work. Good to know you are constantly tweaking and improving.

#373 2 years ago

Got my pro and popped it in. Little tab that fills the hole that lines up with the keyed pin causes it to not sit flat. Is that normal? Worries me a little because it's a bit crooked.

#374 2 years ago
Quoted from SunMonkeyAZ:

Worries me a little because it's a bit crooked.

SunMonkey - It's not a problem, but if it's a bother, you can trim down the key with a snip or you could pull it out entirely if you are sure you will never try to install it backward.

Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams system 3-7 sound board potentiometer solutions

#375 2 years ago

Hey all - I just launched a Kickstarter for what I'm calling the Extreme Adapter. Take a look...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2111218102/wpc-pinball-power-fix-extreme-adapter

I should have one in my TPF booth as well.

#376 2 years ago
Quoted from rkahr:

Hey all - I just launched a Kickstarter for what I'm calling the Extreme Adapter. Take a look...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2111218102/wpc-pinball-power-fix-extreme-adapter
I should have one in my TPF booth as well.

I'm backing your Kickstarter simply because since installing your daughter board I haven't had one reset on my TZ. So glad to have it back in the line up full time without issues and enjoying every minute of it. Thanks Rob

#377 2 years ago

Backed it as well, board has worked great in HS2 and a couple other games.

#378 2 years ago
Quoted from ArgabargaJones:

I'm backing your Kickstarter

Quoted from Kawydud:

Backed it as well

Thanks for your support! It's pretty neat; over 100 video views and 20% funded in less than 2 days. Here's the link again: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2111218102/wpc-pinball-power-fix-extreme-adapter

Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams system 3-7 sound board potentiometer solutions

#379 2 years ago

If you want to save some shipping, you can deliver the goods at Allentown, will be there Thursday - Saturday.

1 week later
#380 2 years ago

CftBL reset problem solved! Was able to play several games yesterday without a single problem! Thanks!

#381 2 years ago

Now I'm wondering for a WPC-95 solution?!

#382 2 years ago
Quoted from AlexSMendes:

Now I'm wondering for a WPC-95 solution?!

Same product Amendes.....

#383 2 years ago

All right.... I ain't got no reset problems on my WPC-95 machines, but now all my 4 WPC games are covered!

#384 2 years ago
Quoted from Sonic:

Same product Amendes.....

Correct. WPC Power Fix Daughterboard works in all WPC, WPC-S, and WPC-95 games. And, you don't have to wait for reset symptoms to install one - as the name suggests, my daughterboard solves a power problem in WPC era games. Correcting your machine's power supply load distribution before reset symptoms ever begin will help to extend the life of your PDB power supplies.

Sorry I've been slow to answer, but I spent all my awake hours over the past 3 days at the Texas Pinball Festival. What a spectacular event!

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams system 3-7 sound board potentiometer solutions

#385 2 years ago

Pledged away . Thanks for your contributions to pinball. Great products

2 weeks later
#386 2 years ago
Quoted from rkahr:

Hey all - I just launched a Kickstarter for what I'm calling the Extreme Adapter. Take a look...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2111218102/wpc-pinball-power-fix-extreme-adapter

Well the Kickstarter campaign didn't fully fund, but the Extreme Adapter is ready. This morning I added the Extreme Adapter to the products for sale in the Daughterboard section of my website. The adapters are in stock and available for immediate shipment for the same pricing that I offered in the Kickstarter campaign.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams system 3-7 sound board potentiometer solutions

#387 2 years ago

Hey Rob, my order for another 4 pack classic will come next monday!

1 week later
#388 2 years ago

I ordered a pro for my TZ this morning and the status went from order confirmed to shipped with tracking number in an hour and a half!

Holy cats, Rob - you're a man on fire! Thanks, and can't wait to pop that daughter board in.

2 weeks later
#389 2 years ago

One Year As Of Today. 2.500 + Games / Funhouse. And Not One Reset.. Thanks Guy..

1 week later
#390 2 years ago

Whelp, KAHR.US had a really good Allentown show this year! Really appreciate the many folks who came by to comment on how happy they are with their daughterboards and the referrals to some new users. I got home from Allentown very late on Saturday and somehow managed to ensure Mother's day was a success at home... The mini-seminars I did in the booth were not well attended; perhaps I didn't make it clear enough when they would be happening. I'll try them again at Pintastic in July; hope that show is as much fun as Texas and Allentown have been this year.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams system 3-7 sound board potentiometer solutions

#391 2 years ago

Hi Rob - I was pretty busy with my freeplay pins at the show but I was also helping out at the Pinball Gallery booth which was right next to yours at Allentown this year. We spoke briefly Saturday afternoon (I think). I must admit that I had no idea you were offering seminars, sorry! Not sure if i'd have had the time to attend but I certainly would've tried. I know that smaller vendors have a tough time trying to get attention in the middle of the show chaos but I hope you find a way to get word out! I'll be sure to look for you again next year.

Steve

#392 2 years ago

Not sure about that...I seen it at least a half dozen times

Quoted from rkahr:

The mini-seminars I did in the booth were not well attended;

#393 2 years ago

This product has held up on location in my No Good Gofers almost 2 years and World Cup Soccer over 1 year!

2 months later
#394 2 years ago

Just got mine, totally fixed my TZ reset issue! Totally worth the money and the ease of the fix.

Wade

1 week later
#395 2 years ago
Quoted from Wade:

Just got mine, totally fixed my TZ reset issue! Totally worth the money and the ease of the fix.
Wade

Cool! I've been kinda tuned out of Pinside recently b/c I'm playing with some new ideas, but I'm glad your TZ is another success story, Wade. FYI, I just sent my check in to reserve my spot at the York show - if you are coming be sure to stop by and say hello... not just Wade, but anybody who happens to be going!

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync combiner kit

#396 2 years ago

Crazy heat in the mid Atlantic this summer caused some midday resetting in my AFM. Kahr board to the rescue, great product.

#397 2 years ago
Quoted from rkahr:

Well the Kickstarter campaign didn't fully fund, but the Extreme Adapter is ready. This morning I added the Extreme Adapter to the products for sale in the Daughterboard section of my website. The adapters are in stock and available for immediate shipment for the same pricing that I offered in the Kickstarter campaign.
-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams system 3-7 sound board potentiometer solutions

whoa, I didn't know about this campaign, it seems indiegogo is better for many things these days.
I'll look into getting one of these someday and so far still, your daughter boards are keeping my games from resetting on location.

1 week later
#398 2 years ago

Just a FYI, after 1 year of resets in Getaway, from the Pinwiki guide on reset and I have to admit I targeted header pins first, etc. What I failed to look at until I went through the Pinwiki list a few times to see if I missed something. Turns out I did and no-one really talks about this. The plug... the friggin plug!

Standard 6' PC cable, the old one was brass but had to scrape the black off to see the brass. Just look at your prongs that should and would be step #1 in troubleshooting then work up the cable from there down the list.

This board is cool but in reality my resets DID indeed indicate there was a bottleneck in power supply.

Edit: It's been a week, no resets, bridges and the 5V regulator seem to run cooler, I can actually touch them for a few seconds comfortably instead of a microsecond.

#399 2 years ago
Quoted from Nighthawk128:

The plug... the friggin plug!

Nighthawk - Congrats on a good find - Thanks to that under voltage sensing, there are countless gremlins hiding in the original design. It reminds me of old analog kitchen timers - you can go back to it every so often and twist the knob to add time, but eventually it is going to ding. In that analogy the daughterboard takes the bell out of the timer...

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync adapter kit

#400 2 years ago

Hey Pinside - I'm headed to Cleveland today to take my son on a college visit. Unfortunately I couldn't time it to align with CLE PIN... that would have been fun.

Anyway, PM me if you have a recommendation on (1) where to rent a sailboat for a few hours and/or (2) a nice restaurant to celebrate a significant Birthday dinner. Thanks in advance! We are staying at the Beachwood Doubletree.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync adapter kit

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