Announcing new product to help resolve resets in WPC era games

(Topic ID: 83912)

Announcing new product to help resolve resets in WPC era games


By rkahr

4 years ago



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  • 180 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 40 days ago by ChrisPINk25
  • Topic is favorited by 159 Pinsiders

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#302 3 years ago
Quoted from ryanwanger:

I'm sure the designer will chime in here but I'd guess...
ClarkKent said:
Does anybody know what happens when this device is failing one day? Will it destroy something or will is just stop working?

Your machine would just act as if it wasn't there. You'll go back to having whatever problems you had before installing the daughtercard.

Ryan is pretty much right on with both topics. Re: failed, If we define a "failed" daughterboard as not producing the 5 volt output to the MPU, the machine would behave like MPU power cable (J210) was not connected at all. If your 12 volt digital power supply is really weak (i.e., needs repaired) the daughterboard will not have sufficient power to create the 5 volt supply and you will experience just this symptom. Whether a daughterboard itself could "fail" into this state is debatable but no question the upstream 12 volt power supply could cause it.

Re: battery corrosion, if something on the MPU itself is pulling down the voltage, it might also pull down the daughterboard supply. But it also might not... It's entirely possible that the overall loading on the 5 volt supply is so close to the threshold of what the machine can deliver that your MPU load pulls it down but transferring the MPU load to the 12 volt supply could help stabilize everything. Was the inductor on the MPU damaged? Can you post a picture of the damage?

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams 3-7 sound board solutions

#303 3 years ago

What about the scenario of the machine's 5v supply failing further and the daughterboard still providing the MPU with a solid 5v [separate supply] off of the 12v line? Has that ever been tested to see what the behavior of the other boards / components are since they'd be functioning off of the "failing" 5v line from the power supply?

#304 3 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

What about the scenario of the machine's 5v supply failing further and the daughterboard still providing the MPU with a solid 5v [separate supply] off of the 12v line? Has that ever been tested to see what the behavior of the other boards / components are since they'd be functioning off of the "failing" 5v line from the power supply?

The Pro version of the daughterboard monitors the health of the original 5v supply by watching for conditions that "would have" caused a reset if the daughterboard were not present. When/if sensed, it indicates via a red LED that burns until the machine is powered off. For those that occasionally
look, it is reassuring to play a few games (or a few hours worth of games) and then open the backbox to reveal the Pro's green LED burning. The lack of sensing the "would have" reset condition indicates the reduced loading on the original 5 volt supply has allowed the supply to stabilize. Conversely, seeing the Pro's red light quickly come on with every machine boot-up suggests power supply attention is still needed.

I hope that helps explain the logic... and the difference between the Classic and the Pro. When asked at shows about the difference I ask the individual whether they would ever open the backbox to check.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams 3-7 sound board solutions

#305 3 years ago

Okay, I understand the difference between the Classic and Pro.. just was curious of any updates on the scenario of the original 5v supply degrading and becoming dodgy with the reset fix board installed. I guess all that is going to get said on that topic is to maintain the machine properly and/or check the led periodically if you have a Pro version. Doesn't really answer the question of that scenario and is essentially putting any issue with the 5v degrading on the user [which is fair to some extent] but it'd be interesting to actually do a real-world test to see what the hardware actually does in that circumstance.

#306 3 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

it'd be interesting to actually do a real-world test

Real-world can be tough to conclusively demonstrate, but testing is interesting (and valuable) because it furthers understanding. The extreme of a dodgy PDB 5 volt scenario could be emulated by a non-existant supply which could be emulated by simply pulling a fuse and witnessing how the boardset reacts. Any machine that has ever blown the 5 volt fuse has unwittingly demonstrated how the boardset reacts without the daughterboard installed (although that case may not be well documented beyond "it didn't work")... would the boardset react differently if the daughterboard had the MPU running? I've sort of done this in my Party Zone without ill effect, but not repeated it enough times or for sufficient duration to draw definitive conclusions. I say "sort of" because I didn't pull the fuse while the machine was running; I pulled it and then booted. I've also (accidentally) run over voltage on the PDB 5 volt line by about 1.5 volt and that precipitated the need to replace a couple chips on the PDB. In that case it was good (lucky?) the daughterboard was not passing the 5 volt line into the MPU.

There still isn't any magic in my daughterboard - power supplies still need attention - but without question they don't need nearly as much attention because you no longer need to worry about every 100th of a volt.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams System 3-7 sound board solutions

#307 3 years ago

Thank you for the detailed info! I didn't know that the red light on the pro version is on until the machine is turned off. I always thought it's only blinking shortly when a reset would occure and I have to play with an open BB to notice it. That's a valuable info!

But there is still the question in the case the device is failing some day there is really no danger that the 12V line is passed to the CPU? As the 5V signal is converted from the 12V line this could really not happen?

#308 3 years ago

Hmm.. I'd see pulling the fuse as different than a condition where a dodgy 5v still provides the other boards in the machine with some kind of power, say 3-4.5v from the power supply - something that would still allow some chips on those boards to operate partially, but not completely. Basically what the watchdog would *normally* detect and notify the other boards via the blanking signal to prevent the circuitry on the other boards from trying to "do their thing" without a solid 5v. Only the watchdog isn't aware there's a problem in that case.. because that's the purpose of this reset fix board, to remove the finicky watchdog from looking at the 5v coming from the original supply.

#309 3 years ago
Quoted from yonkiman:

I'm an electrical engineer. Purely out of heat and efficiency reasons (and because I could) I replaced the LM323 linear 5V regulator in my HS2 with a switching regulator. Ideally we'd all do that to save power and reduce heat and (if done correctly) eliminate this reset problem. But it's not a simple fix, it requires removing the driver board, desoldering/soldering, etc. So it's not for everyone.

Most resets are connector based. Few are bridges/caps. Many of the unsolvable ones I have found, where 5v has not improved from all the usual fixes, or the 5v is good but still resets, have been attributed to the 5v regulator. In my opinion, this is the single most overlooked failing part in WPC's. All of the issues a couple years back where I had troubles like the above, that didn't fall under the usual reset suspects, I swapped the regulator, and this eventually fixed it.

I read eventually they are something like a 10% +/- in either direction for a true 5v. This means you could have a new one, brand new, new part of NOS, and it could potentially be one on the low end, and not capable of providing enough 5v for a WPC to run. I question that Williams must have known this and tested these prior to installing, as I have not read of a lot of resets for NIB b/w machines.

Early on when repairing my TZ, I didn't know this. Swapped a LM323 in, still low 5, assumed it was something else. It was only when I found out about these switching regulators, and how they output exactly 5v, did I readdress some of these oddball scenarios, which has fixed each issue.

At this point of the game, when a reset falls into the category of not a connector drop and the test point 5v is low, I immediately swap the 5v regulator, takes no time, and it has done the trick each time.

I of course use the Kahr board in the interim, but not long term. As I have said from day one, great tool, but I personally do not feel comfortable with it for a permanent fix, or should I better say, I don't feel comfortable knowing there is an unresolved issue. I had raised the point that the board may be a good replacement as a diverter from the overused 5v, but that didn't seem to go over well with many. I still wonder about that.

#310 3 years ago
Quoted from ClarkKent:

But there is still the question in the case the device is failing some day there is really no danger that the 12V line is passed to the CPU? As the 5V signal is converted from the 12V line this could really not happen?

Suppose what you're asking here is if there's any way the voltage regulator would die and short the 12v input to [what should be] +5v output for the MPU. I think most regulators are short-circuit protected and damage mostly occurs from exceeding maximum specs on the input voltage (or applying a negative voltage to the input). So I'd think not, but I'm also not entirely sure of all the ways voltage regulators can fail.

#311 3 years ago

Did all that, there was clear component damage on the board (corrosion on chips), did everything there, voltages correct, traces might have messed up, chip damaged, soldering on the back looks ugly, my game just deserves a new board.

2 weeks later
#312 3 years ago

Rob, PM sent regarding an order I'd like to place if it could be shipped out quickly. Thank you.

#313 3 years ago

I got one of each of these last week or so. Both my Getaway and my IJ were exhibiting resets pretty frequently and i am too busy to pull off the boards and redo a connector. Plugged these in and games are rock solid. I had not played them for months and now I am enjoying them to the full.

For the price these are a steal using Time = Money formula!!!

#314 3 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Rob, PM sent regarding an order I'd like to place if it could be shipped out quickly. Thank you.

I ordered 6 from his website yesterday and I got a notification within 2 hours saying it was shipped

#315 3 years ago

Just ordered one. Looking forward to trying it out!

#316 3 years ago

I used one on my Getaway and have had no resets in over a year, great product !

#317 3 years ago
Quoted from MeNaCeFiRe:

I ordered 6 from his website yesterday and I got a notification within 2 hours saying it was shipped

Two hours is lucky but I'll take credit! ... I print postage and package up orders in the evening each day. In the early morning I do the same for anything that came in overnight, so basically twice daily I print postage and package. So almost always less than 12 hours, but 2 hours is less than normal. Sundays and holidays are exceptions since the post office is closed.

Speaking of luck, my home postal route is serviced out of a regional USPS hub (Merrifield, VA) so outgoing shipments get routed to long-haul truck (I-95, I-66, etc) or air (Dulles airport) that same evening. That saves a day compared to most residential pickups that take a day to work their way up to the regional depots. I don't know how they make the drive/fly decision, but I periodically check tracking number data and it seems very rare that anything takes more than 3 days to be delivered. A surprising number are 2 day without_ priority mail.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams System 3-7 sound board solutions

2 weeks later
#318 3 years ago

For those not following the SFGE threads, I am taking my daughterboards on a road trip to Atlanta. Leaving tomorrow afternoon; returning to DC area Monday... shipping may be a bit sporadic while I am at the show. Really depends on availability of a printer and longevity of inventory.

It's my third show for the year (and last if you ask my wife)... so I'll probably squeeze in one show this fall as well!

-Rob
-visit me at SFGE to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for Williams System 3-7 sound board solutions

2 weeks later
#319 3 years ago

Hi Pinsiders. I have to say that Rob is slipping in customer service. Seriously, my order went in this evening (Sunday!) and within 14 minutes got the reply that my daughter board had shipped. I presume he had dinner between the time I ordered and when it shipped.... what else could explain the delay?

1 month later
#320 3 years ago

Just ordered for a NGG that has a reset issue. I've tested voltages and reflowed caps and connections. Nothing seems to work. Hope this works!

3 weeks later
#321 3 years ago

Hi all - just sharing that I shipped number 2000. Thanks for the support! Also I don't think I'm going to be at York this year... falls on the anniversary weekend.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V sync combiner

2 weeks later
#322 2 years ago
Quoted from rkahr:

It's my third show for the year (and last if you ask my wife)... so I'll probably squeeze in one show this fall as well!

Sure enough, I'm squeezing in the York show - Hope to see you all there! Staying at the show hotel (Best Western). Anyone else going?

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync combiner

3 months later
#323 2 years ago

Ugh - postage prices went up today... apparently the hike was announced in October. Guess they need more money to cover the falling cost of fuel.

http://blog.stamps.com/2015/10/22/usps-announces-postage-rate-increase-starts-january-17-2016/

I've absorbed several increases along the way but had to adjust for this one because it is big. The 20% online shipping discount through Paypal was taken away. Consequently what once was $28 on my site is now $29 and what was $38 is now $39.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC pinball resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync combiner

#324 2 years ago

I have a Creech that has been driving me batty for years with random resets. I've tried just about everything -- so Rob, your board is next. Looking very forward to seeing if this finally cures it.

3 weeks later
#325 2 years ago

Happily ordered one of these today. Just wanted to take a moment to say thank you for your innovations and contributions to the pinball industry as well. I met you at Allentown awhile back, my buddy got the converter for his Pin2000 monitor & you were awesome to deal with. I wish I would have known you had this back then, because I was wanting to give you a sale for something but didn't realize I had a need at the time!

#326 2 years ago

Awesome product. Installed mine a month ago. I had been having trouble with my STTNG for just over two years and it's been vertically unplayable for the last six months. Been playing it solid since the install and no sign of a problem. Thanks.

#327 2 years ago

I was having NGG reset problems and I have not had any issues since I installed this board.

1 week later
#328 2 years ago

Seems like a wonder product for resets

#329 2 years ago

I've tried overloading my circuit with extra heaters, a dehumidifier, a MegaTouch, 7 pins running, a computer, lights & etc. and none of that is enough to cause my game to reset anymore since installing this. Excellent product!

#330 2 years ago

Installed one of these on my TZ last week and haven't had a reset since. Thanks so much

#331 2 years ago

Note to myself: take a look into it.... maybe order some....

#332 2 years ago

Rob is an awesome guy!! A true asset to the pin community. I ordered mine yesterday and it already shipped. Cant wait to get it.

#333 2 years ago

I forgot to mention shipping was lightning fast as well!

Quoted from AlexSMendes:

take a look into it.... maybe order some....

If you've experienced the reset issue, do yourself and your game a favor and get one, you definitely will not regret it.

#334 2 years ago
Quoted from sevenrites:

I forgot to mention shipping was lightning fast as well!

If you've experienced the reset issue, do yourself and your game a favor and get one, you definitely will not regret it.

Thanks man, I sent Rob a PM earlier and I'm waiting for his reply... I'll want a "4-pack"!!!!

51qC8kySRIL_(resized).jpg

#335 2 years ago

as anyone had success, so to speak, with the version that has an LED that will light if a reset 'would have occurred'? I installed that version in a machine that would reset constantly and while it has not reset at all since putting in the board, the indicator has never shown it would have reset. I liked the idea of that since it would let you continue to try to solve the real issue, but, has anyone seen that feature work?

#336 2 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

as anyone had success, so to speak, with the version that has an LED that will light if a reset 'would have occurred'? I installed that version in a machine that would reset constantly and while it has not reset at all since putting in the board, the indicator has never shown it would have reset. I liked the idea of that since it would let you continue to try to solve the real issue, but, has anyone seen that feature work?

Never bothered with that one, just got the standard. I don't need a light to tell me it worked. The fact the machine doesn't keep resetting is all the proof i need.

#337 2 years ago

And may be due to the fact that the regulator is now powered by the 12V and therefore, there is less strain on the original regulated 5V so it may not dip down to any level that could indicate a reset condition.

I am guessing you would have to have a pretty bad unregulated input for the factory 5V regulator to misbehave once you take the entire MPU board load away from it.

#338 2 years ago
Quoted from pauloz:

Never bothered with that one, just got the standard. I don't need a light to tell me it worked. The fact the machine doesn't keep resetting is all the proof i need.

The idea of that feature, is to let you have a game that doesn't reset, but still allows you to try to get to the root cause of it, by having the indicator that there is still a problem. There is a chance that totally ignoring the issue causing your reboots could eventually lead to damage to components. For example a bad DMD display could be causing resets, and if not addressed, it will likely result in damage to the DMD board as well, etc.

Quoted from CactusJack:

I am guessing you would have to have a pretty bad unregulated input for the factory 5V regulator to misbehave once you take the entire MPU board load away from it.

hmm, I would not think that the MPU would typically be what is having the greatest impact on the load resulting in resets, but, I'm no expert. It is certainly not a board that one would typically swap out in trying to isolate the issue.

#339 2 years ago

I got the standard fix board a few weeks ago as a backup and my CFTBL had resetting issues yesterday so installed the board and unfortunately has solved my problem though a very warm day here....

#340 2 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

hmm, I would not think that the MPU would typically be what is having the greatest impact on the load resulting in resets, but, I'm no expert. It is certainly not a board that one would typically swap out in trying to isolate the issue.

Its not so much the load of the MPU but the entire load on the regulator (which lies on the driver board and all its connections). The MPU with its multiple ICs is going to have an impact on the regulators output. Especially if the unregulated input to the linear regulator is compromised in some way (open bridge diode, reduced ufd on the filter caps etc.). So, regardless of how much of a load the MPU is. By eliminating it, you regain some operational wiggle room for the failing components and the problem potentially disappears.

#341 2 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

The idea of that feature, is to let you have a game that doesn't reset, but still allows you to try to get to the root cause of it, by having the indicator that there is still a problem. There is a chance that totally ignoring the issue causing your reboots could eventually lead to damage to components. For example a bad DMD display could be causing resets, and if not addressed, it will likely result in damage to the DMD board as well, etc.

+1. Eventually problems with the linear will come back. Great band-aid as discussed in another recent thread on this board, but several people there had found out it wasn't the long-term fix.

Having an additional watchdog on the plug-in board to handle shutting down the 5v to the other boards via tripping the MPU watchdog when the linear 5v supply gets *too bad* (below 4.0v?) would have been a killer revision IMO. Regardless, if you leave the original caps on that were installed by Williams at the factory.. eventually the linear supplies will degrade.. and problems will be back, or worse.. some stuff could lock-on or get damaged. Who knows. Hopefully those scenarios have been tested for worst-case.

#342 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

So, regardless of how much of a load the MPU is. By eliminating it, you regain some operational wiggle room for the failing components and the problem potentially disappears.

I get what you are saying, given how bad the resets were, I would think it would still be an issue. Considering I could still make it reset without the DMD and dmd board powered. Considering what you are saying and since it is not indicating that resets would be occurring, it would certainly suggest that there is limited value in the more advanced version of the product in many, if not most cases.

Regardless, the basic board certainly gets the job done.

#343 2 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

I get what you are saying, given how bad the resets were, I would think it would still be an issue. Considering I could still make it reset without the DMD and dmd board powered. Considering what you are saying and since it is not indicating that resets would be occurring, it would certainly suggest that there is limited value in the more advanced version of the product in many, if not most cases.
Regardless, the basic board certainly gets the job done.

Well, the key thing is exactly what the board does: It moves the MPU's 5V supply off of the original linear 5V regulator. It does it with a switching regulator on a different power source. Two beneficial contributions.

The Driver board and its associated components are the source of the resets but it is the limited window of the power monitoring circuit on the MPU board that actually does the resetting (of the CPU). The switching regulator is much more tolerant of lower input voltages (regardless of their source). So, in its simple beauty, the board provides a differently created 5 volts to the CPU that is not likely to drop low enough to trigger a reset.

The original 5V regulator is still powering the associated ICs on the driver board but they can typically continue to perform at voltages lower than the reset set point of the power monitor on the MPU board. And, even if they did have a bit of a hick-up with a drop in 5V, the software in continuously resending new data to the driver board which would more than likely instantly correct the data corruption.

It is issues with the Sound Board, DMD controller or Audio Visual board that would be more prone to showing fault as the original regulated 5V continues to deteriorate.

Agreed. It would appear there is little value to the fault indicator version of the board. But hey! Some people just like to see an LED on the boards they invest in!!!!

#344 2 years ago

Hopefully not rehashing but here's my situation. Have a Black Rose picked up a few weeks ago that was resetting. 5v was low so went ahead and had board repaired by local service company. At the same time had him redo J115 since connector was burnt. I got a connector to rewire but had to order the .156 punch down tool. While waiting I left the GI disconnected and played for hours of fun. Got my tool today, hooked up the wires, plugged it in, GI all lit, played and........3 resets in an hour. From what I've seen the extra load from the GI can cause resets. I'm wondering since the board uses the 12v regulated is there a test to make sure it is OK to handle the board? Does it need to be right at 12v? If it's below 12v is that OK? Mine's a little low. 11.7v give or take. Don't want to order and then realize it doesn't help my situation. Thanks.

#345 2 years ago
Quoted from SunMonkeyAZ:

From what I've seen the extra load from the GI can cause resets.

Strange, but true. Back in 2014 I pointed out my Party Zone did exactly this same thing..."Anyway, I found that I could eliminate this collapse by unplugging the GI power from the PDB..." - see question 5 here: http://creditdotpinball.com/2014/04/26/tech-wpc-resets-and-the-wpc-mpu-daughterboard/

Quoted from SunMonkeyAZ:

Don't want to order and then realize it doesn't help my situation.

Why not? I take returns... minus postage... so $2.54 each way in the USA.

-Rob
-visit http://www.kahr.us to get my daughterboard that helps fix WPC resets or for my Pinball 2000 H+V video sync combiner kit

#346 2 years ago

If GI effects frequency of resets, I would expect low line voltage, over taxed AC circuit (outlets), or possibly a failing thermister in the power junction box.

While it is very uncommon, people have had WPC transformers go bad. Perhaps this is an indicator of one that is failing internally.

I believe Rob's circuit uses a low drop out regulator. So, running off the 12V, there is plenty of head room for it to still provide a solid 5V even if the input voltage drops.

#347 2 years ago

Placed my order for a 4-pack... The Creech already says thanks! The remaining I'll keep for further emergencies!

#348 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Agreed. It would appear there is little value to the fault indicator version of the board. But hey! Some people just like to see an LED on the boards they invest in!!!!

my assumption, was that board was monitoring for a 5v voltage drop that would be low enough to trigger a reset, e.g. under 4.98, since it is still taking in the standard 5v feed, even though it is then powering the board by taking the 12 volt and regulating it to the 5v. Maybe it does do something like that, but at a lower voltage and that my machine has a higher threshold of failure, so I was seeing resets but not with voltage drops below the threshold?

Maybe rkahr can clarify the functionality of that feature.

#349 2 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

my assumption, was that board was monitoring for a 5v voltage drop that would be low enough to trigger a reset, e.g. under 4.98, since it is still taking in the standard 5v feed, even though it is then powering the board by taking the 12 volt and regulating it to the 5v. Maybe it does do something like that, but at a lower voltage and that my machine has a higher threshold of failure, so I was seeing resets but not with voltage drops below the threshold?
Maybe rkahr can clarify the functionality of that feature.

The daughterboard takes 12v input and uses that to give the MPU a solid 5v (via the switching regulator).. so the watchdog on the MPU is looking at this "new" power supply 5v (generated off the 12v linear supply). From the website, it seems the PRO version of the daughterboard would also "monitor" the linear 5v by indicating via an LED if the voltage dropped below a certain threshold. So if the linear 5v gets bad, the CLASSIC would have no indication of this. The PRO would light an led, but that's it. The user would have to be looking inside the backbox to see that an "under voltage" condition occurred on the linear 5v supply. Neither would trigger a watchdog reset on the MPU for the linear 5v being under voltage since the MPU is getting an alternate "5v feed"... and so neither of those shut down the boards if/when the linear 5v gets too bad to run the driver board, DMD, etc circuitry. That's my understanding of it all.

#350 2 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

as anyone had success, so to speak, with the version that has an LED that will light if a reset 'would have occurred'? I installed that version in a machine that would reset constantly and while it has not reset at all since putting in the board, the indicator has never shown it would have reset. I liked the idea of that since it would let you continue to try to solve the real issue, but, has anyone seen that feature work?

I had a similar experience with this but I need to do more diligent checking. But yeah, I had some random resetting that had got to the point where I would get a reset every few games. Installed the board and that stopped the resets but I would never get the LED to light up showing a reset would have occurred. Due to the hassle of checking I haven't consistently checked for the light and would need to be more consistent before giving any definite feedback.

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