Announcing new product to help resolve resets in WPC era games

(Topic ID: 83912)

Announcing new product to help resolve resets in WPC era games


By rkahr

4 years ago



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  • 456 posts
  • 180 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 63 days ago by rkahr
  • Topic is favorited by 160 Pinsiders

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There are 456 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 10.
#101 4 years ago

Rob,
The actual shipping will usually be around $10 to $20 anywhere. Unless you ship just a few in a small padded envelope, and that runs about $10. Small flat rate box is about $20-25 indeed. But you will be saving the buyers a lot if you take off the GSP shipping option, and just offer international shipping yourself. Cost it, and add it to the auction as international shipping (priority or flat rate or whatever) but leave the duties etc to the buyer's customs officials.
Most of us don't pay much in duties, and small parcels often go straight through.
It isn't a hassle to ship internationally yourself. Not many customs forms if it is a small parcel. Just don't chose the Global Shipping Program shipping option when you setup the auction. They do try and make it look like the only option, but it isn't.

Chaos

#102 4 years ago
Quoted from Chaos:

I think this is an awesome thing to keep on hand and will be grabbing one or 2 for myself.
However, just a helpful suggestion for overseas sales. Myself...and many other eBayers are boycotting any auction that uses the Global Shipping Program. This is a blatant ripoff by eBay and Pitney Bowes, and whilst I understand it is much more convenient for sellers who hate the hassles of overseas shipping, it doesn't encourage an overseas buyer to purchase.
As an example, the 10 daughterboards would easily fit in a small padded envelope and ship overseasfor under $20 shipping. And for many customers, because it is small and insignificant looking, it will probably sail through customs with maybe a few $'s clearing fee if anything.
However, eBay's GSP wants $20.31 for the shipping, and an upfront payment of $43.74 for customs. Making total shipping/fees $64 plus the items.
Sorry, but I prefer to leave duties etc to my own country's customs guys. I do not want to have to pay for local shipping in the USA, and then a profit for PB and eBay.
Not your fault..it is far easier for you. But just constructive advice to consider, that might increase overseas sales.
I will not purchase any item that uses this program. Not sure how others here that are outside of the USA feel.
Chaos

This is the first I've heard of any complaints about the GSP service. Interesting to hear them, I'm glad I noticed this as it may help me rethink things.

I've been using Global Shipping on some auctions of mine. Stuff that I may only have 1 or 2 of, or that have a higher value.

Why?

It protects me as a seller significantly more than shipping using USPS on my own.

Example:

I get several claims a year from overseas customers. Usually, it's centered to Italy, but there are other countries from time to time. There are times I get orders from Italy and cringe. It's not because I don't like people from Italy or their money, it's because Italian customs is notorious for sitting on items for weeks on end. So, you ship it, and the tracking shows it left the US, and maybe even hit customs, but the person still files a claim, because they didn't receive the item!

So, if it's something small and not too expensive, I can ship another one, and eat it. It's still worthwhile on smaller items. But, most of them are resolved by shipping replacement product, or often just waiting a few more days. There's nothing like the e-mails I get sometimes, a customer from England asking if I can just call my post office and find out where his package is. Assuming they can do anything more than look at a tracking number and tell me where it was last scanned. That's assuming I can even get a real person on the phone!

But, what if it's something rare, or expensive?

With the GSP, once it hits the regional hub for the GSP plan, any liability for the purchase is on eBay / Pitney Bowes. I can't get feedback 'dinged' for slow shipping as long as I ship it within the allotted time. If someone leaves me negative feedback for slow shipping or anything related to the shipping, eBay removes it!

I can see where it would be frustrating from your perspective. What I'd suggest to you is this: when I look at an item on eBay, I look at the total cost - what the item will cost me, including shipping and any fees. Then, I base my bid or offer price on that number.

So, a $200 item that is gonna cost $10 in shipping and $30 in import/customs fees, my high bid is $160.

Yeah, you may get outbid by someone in the country the item is who can get it for cheaper shipping. But, the chance of getting outbid has always been there. The highest bid wins, right?

You could argue that if I just shipped it myself for $10, I could've had $30 more of your $$. I'd rather take less and know I'm covered, should it disappear or be lost somewhere along the way. 100% of $160 is always better than 0% of $190!

If you know of a better way, where I can mitigate my risk on items, I'd love to hear of it - I'm always looking for ways to improve my customers overall experience.

#103 4 years ago

John (and sorry to hijack this thread)
All I can tell you is that thousands of overseas guys are simply boycotting any auctions that ship using this program. Sellers won't see any difference, except for the fact that their items are selling for less, or they have less bids.
The GSP is too expensive for cheap items..most times the shipping and duties are more than the item.
For example, the DM car for my pin that I tried to order, the car was $5, and GSP charges were $32.
So it's out for cheap items. And for more expensive items or rarer items? Offer the buyer USPS Express (EMS) mail. It is more expensive, but probably cheaper than the GSP, and is insurable, trackable and gets there in 4 or 5 days.
I only speak as an international (South African) buyer who has over 400 parcels over the past 10 years. Only lost 2, and the rest have always arrived.
Italy and Russia are known to be problems. Many won't ship there at all.
Anyways, I just think that giving the buyer the option of choosing how much he wants to pay, and how much risk he wants to take is the way to go. If he chooses no insurance or tracking, then his problem.
The GSP can be useful for large, high value items possibly.
face it..eBay is a risk anyways. So just my 2c. The program is indeed useful for those that refused to ship internationally before. They only have to ship locally now. But for those who used to ship on their own..carry on that way.
I guess this belongs in its own thread, sorry.
As for the original topic, I will be mentioning it to a local pin repair guy and see if he wants a few.
Not many guys buying/restoring/repairing pins here in SA, I know of about 5. And machines sell fast when they come up for sale. But prices are good compared to the US I guess.

Chaos

#104 4 years ago

Unfortunately, over the years, I've had many say they accept the risk.. and then when it's the package that disappears, they suddenly file a paypal claim.

I will look at the EMS option a little closer.

On small lower value items, I send them First Class International, and overall have decent luck. For a $20-30 item, I'd definitely look to ship it that way. 1-2 oz packages are about $7 and get there fairly quickly in a bubble mailer.

Thanks for the insight - much appreciated!

#105 4 years ago

This could come in handy for the next route use only pinball machine I buy for sure!

#106 4 years ago

So, the 12V replacement is a good thing because the daughter board is putting more strain on the 12V circuit?

#107 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

So, the 12V replacement is a good thing because the daughter board is putting more strain on the 12V circuit?

donjagra,

In short yes, because the daughterboard increases the load driven by the 12 volt digital rail. As I describe in the technical details (at www.kahr.us/index2.html) the 12 volt circuit drives very little load in the WPC design and the LM7812 has the spare capacity needed to drive the additional MPU load moved onto it by my daughterboard. Also, the entire 12 Volt regulated supply is itself a load on the 18 Volt unregulated supply formed through BR1 and C6/C7 on the PDB. So eliminating heat loss would reduce the 12 Volt regulated supply's power loading on the 18 Volt power supply - that serves to counterbalance most of the load transferred to the supply by installing the daughterboard.

I think it is worth doing if you are sure_ you can do the solder work without damaging the board or if your 12 volt digital line needs work anyway. Those PDB traces are fragile and the via's can easily pull out from those old boards. If you are unsure, don't risk damaging your board. After all, swapping out the 7812 for a switching regulator is just a "nice to have"... like you said, "a good thing", but is not essential for running the daughterboard. Think of it like driving a Prius instead of Camry. Both get you from A to B, but the Prius does so with less gasoline. Your game will play the same whether or not you swap out the 7812; will you feel better knowing it burned a little less power when the display flashes "Game Over"?

I've had several PM's about the switched regulator so I appreciate you seeking more data publicly.

-Rob

#108 4 years ago

Rkahr, Do you recommend put your daughterboard to avoid resets in the future? Or in pinballs that have sporadic resets?

#109 4 years ago
Quoted from dulux:

Do you recommend put your daughterboard to avoid resets in the future? Or in pinballs that have sporadic resets?

Dulux,

Sporadic resets? Absolutely recommend it. A machine that is not resetting very often has a power supply that is "almost" good enough. The "almost good enough" power supply exactly aligns with my thinking when I included this quote when launching this thread: "This new solution is not intended to substitute for maintaining the power supply circuitry in WPC systems, but it does eliminate the need to fret over every hundredth of a volt".

A machine with no resets? I concluded the overall power loading is better balanced with the daughterboard than without so I think it's a good idea. Some suggest viewing the reset as the "credit dot" of power supplies and don't want to mask that early indicator of power supply problems. That's a valid line of thinking that shouldn't be discredited. In my mind however, no resets indicates a strong or "good enough" power supply so it's really a question of whether one thinks the better loading balance will extend the life of the good equipment. Trying to relate the decision to something outside electronics, pollen allergies typically cause me to have a couple miserable days in the spring so I typically take Claritin (or generic equivalent) from March to June each year. I don't need it every day (and I might not need it at all in a given spring) but I can't predict for sure so I just do it. So... this is a longwinded way of me trying to point out both sides of the coin and tell you it's your call.

-Rob

#110 4 years ago
Quoted from dulux:

Rkahr, Do you recommend put your daughterboard to avoid resets in the future? Or in pinballs that have sporadic resets?

Quoted from rkahr:

This new solution is not intended to substitute for maintaining the power supply circuitry in WPC systems

The one downside to using this solution is that if there is a power supply problem you're less likely to get a reset using this solution and thus knowing you have a problem you need to deal with.

I bought a couple, tried it out. Nicely designed product and pretty idiot-proof. Changing out the linear 12v regulator will balance the increased load this board presents. Chances are though if you're capable enough to swap the regulator out you'll probably capable of finding the cause of resets in the first place. Still, as a quick solution for when a machine starts resetting you can't beat it.

viperrwk

#111 4 years ago

Ordered one or two as well, My question is should I keep them in now on my two WPC machines or just when resets happen?

#112 4 years ago
Quoted from rkahr:

Dulux,
Sporadic resets? Absolutely recommend it. A machine that is not resetting very often has a power supply that is

Nice, after 20 years ago, the "best update" to our Williams Machines, congratulations

#113 4 years ago

My BSD has been resetting sporadically for months (years?). I looked at Pinwiki, wiggled and jiggled a few things and the resets went away for a while. However, for the last several weeks, any time I turned the pin on it constantly reset, like three to four times a minute. I could not even get a game to start.

I bought two of these on ebay. I put one in BSD today, fired up the pin and it worked. Immediately. I played a half-dozen games on it and never had a reset.

I put the second in my AFM, and plan to order two more for TNG and TOTAN. I have had occasional resets on each of these machines.

I am intimidated by board work. I know there are underlying issues causing the resets on my Williams pins, but I personally am not qualified to diagnose and repair them. BSD is working, and I didn't have to pull boards and send them out. To me, that is a good thing.

#114 4 years ago

All,

I am a chaperone on a high school band trip Thursday through Sunday so I won't be able to ship after Wednesday until 7 April. All Wednesday orders will be packaged and shipped before I leave.

PMcGee, thank you for sharing the success!

-Rob

#115 4 years ago

International purchasers: I'm going to try direct shipping to Europe - I've added a paypal cart button to my kahr.us site. I hope it is considerably less expensive than the ebay global shipping.

Band trip ends today so shipping now returns to normal quick processing.

-Rob

#116 4 years ago

I bought one of these with the regulator. Where does the regulator go?

#117 4 years ago
Quoted from DexterH:

Where does the regulator go?

DexterH,

It replaces the LM7812 regulator identified as Q2 on the power driver board. After carefully desoldering Q2 without damaging the through hole grommets or copper traces, solder the regulator in the 7812's place. The replacement only has components on one side of the board. The component side should face away from the 7812's heat sink. You do not need to leave the 7812's heat sink on the PDB.

Here's a photo of my PDB with the regulator circled. I have a prototype regulator installed right now which is why it is orange instead of blue. You can see the white outline on the board of where the heat sink used to be... what you cannot see in this photo is that this board needed a solder stitch for one of the 7812's through holes and a repair on a trace leading into the regulator. So be careful - these old boards can be messed up.

-Rob

Slide1.jpg
#118 4 years ago

Nice product, ordered a few. I have a TZ that plays great most of the time, until it's hot out, everyone is running their air conditioners and the rest of our pins are all on. Then I see resets when the game is really busy, like in a multiball. It's a rare occasion, the BR are within spec on their output and this is a perfect solution to keep the CPU happy for those occasions.

#119 4 years ago

Got one. Thx!

1 week later
#120 4 years ago

Thanks ROB !

These little daughter boards are the cat's ass !

I agree with earlier post(s) with respect to e-bay's rip off shipping monopoly / scam . . .

Steve

#121 4 years ago

Ordered one to try. If I like it hoping I can buy more later. I have no immediate need, but good to have on hand!
Thank you!

#122 4 years ago

I ordered two. One for DW and one for T2. Though I've replaced caps and bridges on both boards, the hack work that was done to them prior to my purchase of these pins has left questionable conditions where the soldering was done. One of the boards even had silicon glued all over the soldered side of the board. I've cleaned these boards up as well as was able and, for the most part, they work fine. However, they will occasionally reset. Now, with Robs daughterboards, they no longer reset at all. The boards aren't overheating and the LED indicators light up in proper sequence. Rob's right, if you're chasing a .01 voltage drop through your machine, you could end up wasting a lot of time and money, especially if the board has been hacked. All's well that works well!

#123 4 years ago

eBay auction number for buying single boards changed. It is now ebay.com link

European Union buyers, note there are now direct shipping options available from www.kahr.us.

#124 4 years ago

My AFM will work fine, then I'll shut it down. Next time I boot it up it says Factory Settings Restored. Will this product help eliminate that from happening?

#125 4 years ago
Quoted from jk2171:

My AFM will work fine, then I'll shut it down. Next time I boot it up it says Factory Settings Restored. Will this product help eliminate that from happening?

No. You have a battery/NVRAM issue.

viperrwk

#126 4 years ago
Quoted from viperrwk:

No. You have a battery/NVRAM issue.
viperrwk

OK thanks for clarifying. That's what I thought but wanted a second opinion.

#127 4 years ago

Finally tried one of these out in a Fishtales. It still reset during one ball play with no other games on. I'm guessing that I am probably looking at a broken diode on a coil/flipper or a bad coil bridge. Or more likely a switch matrix issue that caused a slam tilt.

#128 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

It still reset during one ball play with no other games on.

Kbliznick,

Most definitely resets can still occur with the daughterboard installed. Missing/broken flipper coil diodes could still cause the MC34064 to signal shut down. So could grounding issues with the MPU board. And, referring back to the technical details on www.kahr.us, the daughterboard 5 Volt is driven by the 12 Volt digital (which is pulled from the 18 Volt supply). If your 7812 isn't performing (or the 18 Volt power derivation path is failing) the downstream daughterboard may not have sufficient source power to deliver 5 Volts to the MPU. The power supplies still need to be maintained, but no longer do we need to fret over every hundredth of a volt.

I'm not familiar with Fishtales specifically but generally speaking a slam tilt looks a lot different than a reset. Slam tilt is all software that ends game, sometimes with some sort of "display of disapproval" on the DMD. That should look different than the bootup as if freshly powered on at the tail end of a reset.

In any case, if it is a MPU reset and not a slim tilt while the daughterboard is installed I hope it is helpful to know it is not happening because of the 5 volt derivation.

-Rob

#129 4 years ago

Here's a link to an article about my daughterboard (and a little bit about me).

http://creditdotpinball.wordpress.com

-Rob

#130 4 years ago

Hmmm, I have to say at first I was kinda skeptical about this product, but the more I look into it the more I find it to be a decent solution. It won't alleviate all the issues you see across the power supply chain, but does a nice job of boot-strapping the CPU to take care of voltage drop resets caused by issues on the 5vdc.

Neat.

That drop-in switcher to replace 7812's, equally neat. I'll have to keep an eye on that company.

#131 4 years ago

Distributed power using point of use DC-to-DC switching supplies -- too bad these old Williams boards weren't designed like that to begin with. I wish the current capability was a bit higher as those could have been shoe horned into other places as well...

With the demise of the LM323K voltage regulator used in ton's of machines - little switchers such as these or the ones made by companies such as Texas Instruments look to be the answer. Pull out that old LM323K, install a highly efficient 5V, 5A regulator (able to drive LED displays in addition to CPU, etc) -- more current, less heat and a more reliable machine. I don't have the time to work on my LM323K drop in board (which also covers 2N6059 series pass transistors) but *maybe* somebody else here does ... hint, hint.

1 week later
#132 4 years ago

Just a heads-up if you were looking for just the 12 volt regulator - ezsbc.com now has them for sale on their site. I sell them but only as a package with a daughterboard on my site - www.kahr.us.

#133 4 years ago

Just ordered 4 of these babies - hope they work as well as everyone has mentioned. I have a TZ that works pristine unless I have another pin on, or the space heater that's on that same circuit. Some have mentioned that you shouldn't need these if your pin is properly maintained... not sure if I believe that 100% since there is a specific option in TZ for a power save mode to help with the resetting due to the line voltage (plus the fact that it works great when there are no stresses on the line voltage). Anyway, thanks for putting these together, I'm really looking forward to trying these out on my pins.

#134 4 years ago

I was the first to order one of these from the Kahr website and it's been running strong in my Judge Dredd ever since. The true test will be when summer hits with the A/C going, but so far so good.

#135 4 years ago

Mine arrived earlier this week and I put it in my ST:TNG that is on location with a circuit that sometimes (ready many times a day) dips down below what the game considers acceptable voltage levels. I've played the game with a volt meter plugged into the outlet and watched the voltage until a crash occurred, so I know that the wall voltage is the cause of the issue. I also know that the power supply and driver board are in good shape and I've tried to get a cleaner circuit to the machine with no success, so this gives me a fantastic (and affordable) solution to my problem. I may go back and order a few more for a rainy day.

#136 4 years ago

Hey there. Saw you in Todd Tuckey's video from Allentown showing off the daughterboard. You're in the big time

#137 4 years ago

I received 2 of the daughter cards last week. I got one for my TOM that is resetting occasionally, and another just in case. I left my pin on all day (plus 3 others on that circuit) and played a bunch of games with no issues. I will be ordering them for all my WPCs. Great product!!!

#138 4 years ago

Great product!! Works just as described...

#139 4 years ago
Quoted from chadderack:

Saw you in Todd Tuckey's video from Allentown showing off the daughterboard. You're in the big time

Todd is big time with those videos; I was glad to participate when he stopped by. But just a sideshow to his big time...

The success stories are fun to read - thanks!

K3V, thanks for being one of the earliest adopters. I've been running that Party Zone on a 15 amp line that also has a small fridge and a sump pump - even with those heavy on/off draws it runs steady.

#140 4 years ago

I haven't installed mine yet (I have four WPC and or WPC95 games), and I don't have reset problems at home, but I'm taking two games to PAGG next weekend, and games that don't reset at home notoriously reset at the show. I'm taking my daughter board just in case

It would be cool if these were available at the show for quick reset fixes. I don't suppose any vendors would have these there? Borygard (Rob Anthony)?

#141 4 years ago
Quoted from Sparky:

I don't suppose any vendors would have these there?

Believe it or not I considered flying out for PAGG after having such a good time as a vendor at Allentown. Unfortunately late planning is not the way to economize a cross-country trip... airfare was prohibitively expensive. If somebody wants to buy a 10-pack to have them on hand I'm cool with that.

#142 4 years ago

For those wondering, I am a dozen short of having sold 500 daughterboards. Wow! ... And thanks Pinside!

-Rob

#143 4 years ago

Pinside,

Anybody out there read German? My daughterboard is referenced in this thread but I have no idea whether the the board could help b/c the thread is incomprehensible to me...

http://flipperforum.be/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5203&p=57794&hilit=kahr#p57794

-Rob

#144 4 years ago
Quoted from rkahr:

Anybody out there read German?

Go to http://tinyurl.com/mpwxkgf then click on Technical problems, malfunctions and repairs then you will see the third post down is the one regarding Road Show...click on that and it should be in english for you. It wont let me go directly to the link!

#145 4 years ago
Quoted from rkahr:

Pinside,
Anybody out there read German? My daughterboard is referenced in this thread but I have no idea whether the the board could help b/c the thread is incomprehensible to me...
http://flipperforum.be/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5203&p=57794&hilit=kahr#p57794
-Rob

It's basically just a link to your site with this pretext:

"This might solve it (link to site)"

#146 4 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

This might solve it (link to site)"

Thanks meSz and schonb25.

#147 4 years ago
Quoted from Sparky:

I'm taking my daughter board just in case

Sparky,

Did your daughterboard end up in a machine at PAGG?

-Rob

#148 4 years ago
Quoted from rkahr:

Sparky,
Did your daughterboard end up in a machine at PAGG?
-Rob

I installed it ahead of time, before any issues arose, just in case. No problems.

#149 4 years ago

Is there a new link or anywhere to get one of these? I would love one for TZ. She doeant have any problems until the summer time when ambient heat is much higher.

#150 4 years ago
Quoted from Jabbles180:

Is there a new link or anywhere to get one of these?

USA, Europe, Australia, South Africa - Available at http://www.kahr.us .
Canada - Available at http://www.flippers.com/catalog/product_info.php/kahr-5vdc-regulator-games-p-3161
Elsewhere - Ebay auction number is going to change later today because Buy-it-Now listings need renewed every 30 days. Will post the updated Ebay data later today.

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