Announcing an updated Top 100!


By robin

6 months ago


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  • Latest reply 5 months ago by colonel_caverne
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    #1 6 months ago

    Hey Pinside, I'm happy to announce something I've been working on for a while: an update to the Pinside Top 100.

    What has changed?

    From now on, each title can only have one Top 100 spot For starters, there are a bunch of tweaks to the ranking formula. But most importantly, this new update groups similar games into one entry. The rule is simple: From now on, each title can only have one Top 100 spot. For example, both AC/DC editions are now listed as one group, named "AC/DC". The highest ranking game in a group determines the rank of that group. You can click to open a grouped entry to view the individual game ratings for the Pro and the Prem/LE. This goes for almost all Stern games with Pro/Premium/LE editions but also, for example, for games with special editions, such as The Addams Family and Lord of the Rings. We also decided to group together Medieval Madness with its remake.

    This was more complicated than it may seem at first glance. Martijn and I discussed our options at length and we both felt this is the best (and most workable) solution to the issue of games holding multiple places in the Top 100.

    Multiple editions of a game grouped together as one. The highest ranking game determines the goups rank.

    The update also includes a bunch of changes that people suggested via PM, feedback threads and even in person, at the latest TPF show. I no longer include 'expired ratings': ratings made by people who haven't logged on for a year (as well as self-deactivated members). Of course, their ratings will still be visible in the ratings/comments section per game since the reviews can still be very valuable. The score simply doesn't get included in the calculation anymore. I'm also ignoring troll votes (I will not disclose what constitutes a troll vote for obvious reasons but there are multiple factors to determine this and all of it is subject to change anytime).

    The Top 100 got a bit shorter. From 371 entries to 336 entries. Mostly because all entries that are part of a group no longer hold their own spot. And some games got tossed out of the list because of the new ranking formula and due to 'expired votes'.

    Design-wise, I have streamlined the list of ratings/comments and now also make visible when a rating received 2 or more flags or stars.

    All in all, I hope this update will solve some of the issues that were plaguing the Top 100 listing and I'm confident that it makes the Top 100 an even better resource to read game reviews, determine future game purchases - or see how your current favorite game stacks up

    Final note. Please keep in mind, the Top 100 is in no way meant to be the list that *everyone* must agree to. It's simply a calculated average of thousands of game reviews (around 81,000 ratings at the time of writing this). Use it in a way that suits you, don't get too worked up about it if your favorite game is Herculus and you disagree with it being #336 on the list.

    Enjoy!

    #2 6 months ago

    Nice work!

    #3 6 months ago

    WHAT! No Gilligan's Island
    Something wrong there!

    #4 6 months ago

    yay! Great work!

    Reviews will always be problematic because of the financial interests of owners of machines but I think these are some good steps.

    #5 6 months ago

    I like it. Only exception I think would be something dramatic like bop 2.5 versus original. Just food for thought.

    #6 6 months ago

    Thanks Robin - so much cleaner now.

    And welcome Gottlieb Spirit to the top 100!

    #7 6 months ago

    Very cool stuff. I still think the fun factor would be improved if there was a quick-vote option that somehow factored into the ratings.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/improved-ratings-with-more-data-points

    #8 6 months ago

    Just let me say thanks for all you do here Robin, it would be my pleasure.

    #9 6 months ago

    I know I'm new to finally registering to this site, and late to the conversation, but for maybe down the road, I would actually like to see an additional feature where I could see the top 100 by yearly ratings. In other words, a way to allow all games to be rerated every single year. Not as the sole or default 100, but in addition to. I mean ya, sure MM might be number one with 1200 ratings over 12 years, but if you put it up for grabs again in 2017, where would it land by years end. I for one would love to know. That gos for every single game out there.

    Having said that, the new way your doing the top 100 lifetime looks much better. Great job

    #10 6 months ago
    Quoted from TexasJustice:

    I know I'm new to finally registering to this site, and late to the conversation, but for maybe down the road, I would actually like to see an additional feature where I could see the top 100 by yearly ratings. In other words, a way to allow all games to be rerated every single year. Not as the sole or default 100, but in addition to. I mean ya, sure MM might be number one with 1200 ratings over 12 years, but if you put it up for grabs again in 2017, where would it land by years end. I for one would love to know. That gos for every single game out there.
    Having said that, the new way your doing the top 100 lifetime looks much better. Great job

    Check out the custom list tab and various tab at the top of the top 100 page. You can divide it up many different ways.
    Oh, I just checked. The custom tab is currently not working.

    Robin; great work.

    #11 6 months ago

    Thank you.

    #12 6 months ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    Check out the custom list tab and various tab at the top of the top 100 page. You can divide it up many different ways.
    Oh, I just checked. The custom tab is currently not working.

    Oh, that will be very cool when functioning.

    I think it would be cool to create a custom result of "accredited" reviewers.

    #13 6 months ago

    Looks great Robin.

    #14 6 months ago

    Much needed change, great work!

    #15 6 months ago

    Awesome change. Thank you for doing this.

    #16 6 months ago

    Great job Robin! Thanks for listening!

    #17 6 months ago

    Thanks Robin I always thought the titles with several versions was inaccurate because the differences in gameplay is marginal. I had another idea to help improve the rating system, the idea is to have a minimum amount of votes to qualify. I am thinking there needs to be a minimum of 100 votes to make a title a contender for the top 100. How can King Pin even be on the top 100 with only 23 votes? Most people have never seen or played the machine. Meanwhile you have machines with over 1000 votes? Does not make sense to me.

    Also another thing I will add is that people should go back when they have the time and review their ratings. I know that personally I performed my ratings years ago and my opinions and ratings have definitely changed since then. I will eventually get around to going back and reviewing my previous ratings and update them as needed. I will also try and find time to rate newer titles I have not rated yet. I take the top 100 with a grain of salt because of the inaccuracies but some of these improvements will definitely help.

    Thanks again Robin, keep up the good work.

    #18 6 months ago

    Great job! I love it. That's a very smart solution!

    #19 6 months ago

    Maybe the Em section could have the 2/4 players combined also. ??
    Edit. I guess that's a little tougher due to different named games.

    #20 6 months ago

    Woah the last time I checked the top 100 TWD was in position 95 ish

    #21 6 months ago
    Quoted from TexasJustice:

    I know I'm new to finally registering to this site, and late to the conversation, but for maybe down the road, I would actually like to see an additional feature where I could see the top 100 by yearly ratings. In other words, a way to allow all games to be rerated every single year. Not as the sole or default 100, but in addition to. I mean ya, sure MM might be number one with 1200 ratings over 12 years, but if you put it up for grabs again in 2017, where would it land by years end. I for one would love to know. That gos for every single game out there.
    Having said that, the new way your doing the top 100 lifetime looks much better. Great job

    If you scroll down on the ratings page for a game, there are two history graphs available.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/medieval-madness/ratings

    #22 6 months ago

    Pinside is the most advanced "forum" and rating site I've seen. Thanks for all the hard work Robin! The below is a great example of the awesome tools available here.

    Quoted from Pinballgeek:

    Woah the last time I checked the top 100 TWD was in position 95 ish

    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    If you scroll down on the ratings page for a game, there are two history graphs available.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/medieval-madness/ratings

    TWD is a good game to use this feature:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/the_walking_dead/ratings

    You can see the pinside conversations happening in the ratings.
    Phase 1: Initial release, high praise
    Phase 2: Trending downward. People waiting on code update and complaining about pop sending the ball SDTM
    Phase 3: Trending upward. Code updated. People learn to live with or tweak pop exit.
    Phase 4 ??? We will see.

    #23 6 months ago

    Great work guys!

    #24 6 months ago

    You could combine Centaur and Centaur II. They are the same game. Thanks for the updated ratings. I prefer this method.

    #25 6 months ago

    Thanks for making this much needed change.

    #26 6 months ago

    Much better, Thanks!

    #27 6 months ago

    Will you be doing the same for the EM Listing? For example many games are the same but can be for 1, 2, or players?

    Jungle Princess same as Jungle Queen
    Post Time same as Paddock
    Etc...

    #28 6 months ago

    #29 6 months ago

    Great changes Robin. Even though it is just a list of opinions, this seems like a much better way to address putting them together.

    #30 6 months ago
    Quoted from oohlou:

    TWD is a good game to use this feature:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/the_walking_dead/ratings

    You can see the pinside conversations happening in the ratings.
    Phase 1: Initial release, high praise
    Phase 2: Trending downward. People waiting on code update and complaining about pop sending the ball SDTM
    Phase 3: Trending upward. Code updated. People learn to live with or tweak pop exit.
    Phase 4 ??? We will see.

    The one problem, which I'm not sure if there is a solution for, is that initial "bad" reviews for a game, based on early code, still live on and push the game down.

    Apple appStore works around this by grouping reviews by software release, but that may not be possible for pinball because people may not even know what version they played.

    Maybe have review weight diminish in time for older scores, unless someone chooses to revisit their review every so often and republish?

    #31 6 months ago

    looks like some nice improvements to make the list more valid/accurate/representative.

    thanks robin and martian

    #32 6 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    If you scroll down on the ratings page for a game, there are two history graphs available.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/medieval-madness/ratings

    what i would like to do (or to know) and this is the question of TexasJustice, is it possible in the custom section to get a ranking with selecting only a date range ratings? for exemple, i would like to have the top 100 of ratings from 2010 to nowadays. Possible?

    #33 6 months ago
    Quoted from colonel_caverne:

    what i would like to do (or to know) and this is the question of TexasJustice, is it possible in the custom section to get a ranking with selecting only a date range ratings? for exemple, i would like to have the top 100 of ratings from 2010 to nowadays. Possible?

    Speaking to my point above, I think it would be awesome to create a custom top 100 that only calculate the last X reviews of a particular title, or perhaps the last 6 months (user choice) of reviews for each title. Would give a much more relevant chart as to how people feel about the games today (relatively speaking).

    #34 6 months ago

    It would be cool to see what percentage of pinside collections contain that game. this way you can gauge the popularity vs game rank for some cool analysis.

    -c

    #35 6 months ago

    Thank you Robin for all your hard work! Pinside is one of my favorite places to visit. Great job!

    #36 6 months ago

    Are previous rankings from before today back adjusted to fit this new model? i.e. if I look at what a game was ranked at in June 2011 - is using this new model or the previous model for its data point?

    Regardless, NICE UPDATE!

    #37 6 months ago

    Bump,Azmodius: Thank-you,You ROCK !! Really fine job!!!:)

    #39 6 months ago

    awesome

    do you plan for the update to carry over to the specific sub list such as by manufacturer? As now the top 20 Stern pins are represented by like 12 pins and their various clones.

    #40 6 months ago

    Much needed change.

    -2
    #41 6 months ago
    Quoted from pinmister:

    How can King Pin even be on the top 100 with only 23 votes? Most people have never seen or played the machine.

    Maybe another option here would be to only count ratings by people who've owned the game? King Pin may be pretty good, but I doubt most of the people who have played it have gotten enough time on it to give a real opinion, and I bet the situation is similar for a lot of games. Would also be very interesting to compare the ratings for all people vs owners only, I bet you'd get some interesting jumps

    #42 6 months ago

    Pros and Cons to all changes in life.

    * I appreciate the "visible" reduction of Stern machines -- where one title becomes two or three and clutters up the ratings.
    * I am disappointed that now the "apparent" rating of a Stern has gone up, (and is roughly 95% controlled by LE owners.)

    1. Wouldn't the most accurate rating be the weighted average between the LE and the Pro based on the # of ratings of each one based on the reviews of everyone?

    5 LE votes @ 8 (40 pts)
    10 Pro votes @ 6 (60 pts)
    ---------------------
    Games gets a 6.66 (100 pts/15 votes)

    2. I'd prefer to see when you expand the view of a pin, (rather than 1., and 2.) I'd prefer to see the actual rankings of each one, so for #21: #21 and #121.

    As always, overall a positive...

    -mof

    #43 6 months ago

    Great jog Robin and staff and to the Pisiders that take your time to come up with good ideas to incorporate. This site rocks overall!

    #44 6 months ago
    Quoted from robin:

    for games with special editions, such as The Addams Family and Lord of the Rings. We also decided to group together Medieval Madness with its remake.

    Did not see grouping of
    Black Knight and Black Knight Limited Edition
    Fire and Fire Champagne edition
    Eight Ball Deluxe ( all three editions - different Cabinet versions)
    Speakeasy (2P) and Speakeasy4 (4P)
    Centaur and Centaur II
    Big Bang Bar (Capcom vs later remake)
    Harley Davidson (Sega/Stern) did 3 editions did it not

    Then of course how to manage the EM version of Top 100+ (not an easy task)
    With 2 Player vs 4 Player
    (even though most have same Playfield layout & art work)
    they do have different names and some times different artwork
    (i.e. Solar City vs Target Alpha vs Canada Dry or Vulcan vs FireQueen)
    whereas Big Indian vs Big Brave or Magnatron vs Duotron
    4P vs 2P are virtually the same (except for minor differences on BG).
    I think if the artwork package is completely different then keep ratings separate,
    but if near identical artwork then group them together.
    I know that a lot of players/collectors that rate Fire Queen as more desirable/better than Vulcan.
    I think the single player AddABall vs Replay versions should remain separate
    ( as rules sets are different, especially on GTBs)
    But then again some Gottlieb AAB USA versions vs Italian AAB versions
    are near identical in artwork and rules set, but maybe some differences in novelty play scoring.
    Though some WMS single players had Replay models like Paddock
    that could be set to AAB and then have virtually the same rules set
    as compared to the AAB/Novelty only version, like Post Time.

    #45 6 months ago
    Quoted from Rando:

    Will you be doing the same for the EM Listing? For example many games are the same but can be for 1, 2, or players?
    Jungle Princess same as Jungle Queen
    Post Time same as Paddock
    Etc...

    Same goes for replay vs. add-a-ball versions. Same game, different reward for "winning".
    Example: #lucky-hand #jacks-open #lucky-card are all the same game but appear on the EM top 100 in positions 1 and 22.

    #46 6 months ago

    Nice work.

    #47 6 months ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    Same goes for replay vs. add-a-ball versions. Same game, different reward for "winning".
    Example: Lucky Hand Jacks Open Lucky Card are all the same game but appear on the EM top 100 in positions 1 and 22.

    The game play differences make that problematic I believe. They're just too different imo.

    Shouldn't this list actually start at #174? The Em top 100 ends at #173.
    This list is like the NCAA Invitational, amirite?

    #48 6 months ago

    Great job!!! I really appreciate all of your effort, time and work you do for Pinside.

    Everyday I get some type of information to improve my collection and play.

    Thank you

    #49 6 months ago

    Thanks Robin! These are much needed changes.

    I would suggest two further changes for the future:

    1) Increase the minimum number of reviews needed to qualify to be in the top 100-- with games that don't have a lot of reviews, a single person who gives a game very high ratings can "move the needle".

    2) I would suggest a small "blackout" window before new titles can join the top 100. It seems that almost every new Stern release jumps immediately into the top 10 from excited new owners before eventually falling to a more appropriate position on the list. Perhaps 90-120 days after release before the game takes a position on the list. It should still be possible to submit reviews for a game immediately upon release, just not to receive a spot in the rankings.

    Thanks in advance for your consideration.

    #50 6 months ago

    thanks, Robin, this is definitely an improvement!

    you mentioned that users who haven't logged in for a year and self-exiled users are not included in the rankings. are banned user scores also ignored? i can remember a certain user making dozens of accounts that got instantly banned, but on every dupe account he made sure to make the same trolly ratings on certain games.

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