Jack came on here and said himself that they weren't going to honor the warranty, that's pretty clear. It's not like Stern where I guess (I haven't confirmed) it's buried in some fine print somewhere.

GLWS!

If I were you I would retire this ID and come back with something innocuous. Or just get an ID just to sell pins like TwistedPins/CardFelon . Just because of the followers. You could probably stay ahead of them with that.

Even though this looks like a **** storm the situation is pretty clear.

A pin manufacturer needs to sell new games to stay in business. They sell through distributors, who agree not sell below a certain price. When those new machines don't sell, distributors have friends or alternate identities sell those games for less. This happens all the time, and from the potential customer's perspective it's fine as it means lower prices.

For current customers (those with WOZ or those who have had one on paid order) and JJP this means money/value is being lost. Aside from tracking down the distributors via serial numbers and dealing with them, the only thing JJP can do here is give more incentive for people to buy from the distributors following the rules. Thus, no warranty.

EDIT: I'll save my opinion for private conversations as usual

Yeah but they seem to be giving more of an incentive not to buy from them at all...

No argument there.

Look- I don't know what the beef between Bene and Jack is - but Bene was selling a NIB game. Jack popped in to say that it wouldn't have a warranty. I don't get that...it's new! If Bene was selling a used one, I'd understand...but it's never been opened. Why does it matter where it comes from? Why would the first owner be punished if the game is opened and has issues?

What Jack is doing is industry standard. I own a Pioneer receiver that Pioneer will not cover under warranty because I bought it grey-market - not from an authorized distributor. I got a good price and am fine with that.

If Bene bought the game from an authorized distributor, then Jack will provide support to Bene. The warranty does not follow the game, just as it doesn't follow other secondhand electronics. Jack has made it clear he will get all the games 100% WRT known issues such as LEDs, but that does not mean he will cover every problem on secondary market games. Bene is trying to make a stink out of nothing because he and Jack do not get along.

The game has a warranty - to the first person that bought it. That person is Bene, and the person providing support would be the distributor that sold it to Bene. That distributor will not support Bene's buyer, as there is no relationship between them.

This is not rocket science, folks.. industry standard practices here. Jack was being nicer than standard by going above and beyond for repairs, and Bene is trying to take advantage of that by acting as a distributor when he most certainly is not. Jack is simply warning potential purchasers of this.

I own a WoZ and Ive had a few issues and have actually learned how to take certain things apart and get them fixed, I needed a replacement door motor and had it pretty quick from JJP, I understand some concerns with warranty transfer issues but im pretty sure that was talked about in the beginning before games were even shipped. If you know Jack and know his customer service and ability to get ahold of him on the phone pretty much anytime I highly doubt he would ever let a second hand owner high and dry on Parts or service. I really think people are looking to deep into this. Do you really think if you buy a older WoZ with defective 5volt light boards and are not the original owner that Jack is gonna tell you Go Screw Yourself? I highly doubt that and if you have any concerns on buying a used WoZ call Jack and talk to him first he is a really nice guy and easy to talk to, just my 2 Cents.

Joe(acejedi)

Yeah, every industry works this way, it's not some crazy pinball thing. If you buy a Swiss watch from a grey market dealer, NIB, totally legit, all the cards and paperwork, you generally won't get warranty support for it. Omega, Rolex, whatever.

It's simply the carrot/stick manufacturers use to prop up the dealer system. It seems like Stern at least doesn't take it too seriously, who knows with JJP since as usual Jack's forum commenting skills raise more questions than they answer.

Guys, the Pioneer receiver and the Omega watches don't have know design flaws in units that are being sold NIB. You have to see a difference here.

I think this is a completely different situation from most other industries, especially given the fact that most of the people who have WoZ in their homes right now bought a product on a hope and a promise.

There was nothing to see, hear, or feel. Nothing to PLAY to know if it was even a desirable game. They gave their money, waited, and hoped for greatness…never imagining that the same person that they put such blind faith in would undercut them if they changed their mind about the product should they choose to sell it.

Business smart? Possibly... if the cost of repairs are getting out of control for JJP. But, bad PR move, for sure.

IMHO of course

_{Post edited by MrDo : Added IMHO (per Jack's legal team).}

And not every industry works this way. If I buy a Rolex from someone who bought theirs from an AD, the warranty transfers, as long as the book is stamped. And obviously it transfers with cars.

Is this the JJP Epic Announcement?

You sir should get a medal.

Sure, agreed, that's why I put out the BMW example, JJP should do the right thing and put an extra warranty for anyone on the parts that are prone to failure due to a design flaw. Just pointing out that this is industry standard practice for anything with a dealership system.

What's not industry standard is having a product that is flawed, buggy and largely defective. It seems like the majority of WOZ owners have had at least one warranty claim, some minor some major.

You have to take that into consideration in my opinion. If you want to provide an industry standard warranty, you need to have an industry standard defective rate. Not to mention the fact that these guys are all paying premiums for this game. Premium price, premium service, no?

I agree that, if and when JJP develop a reputation for bullet proof games out of the box, they can do whatever they want to protect their distros here. But I am very fearful now of picking up a HUO WOZ. I have been contemplating a couple that are for sale around me right now, one of which is NIB. But now there is no way I am buying one that hasn't been opened, inspected, play tested extensively, and repaired with necessary updated boards or other replacement parts. While it hasn't eliminated the secondary market for me entirely, it has certainly narrowed it extensively and delayed it for a good while, for sure.

I just don't see anything gained by the hard line drawn in the sand here. If you want to have a written, official "policy", but make it known that the support for these initial flaws will be there for whoever owns the game down the line, fine. But to double down on the policy now, in an aggressive manner on a public forum? Just another poorly executed and communicated business decision. Those that continually shoot at their feet should not complain when they find that they can no longer stand.

Actually, the receiver does. It'll lockup occasionally when switching HDMI signals and disagrees with my projector on proper HDMI range every bootup. Firmware upgrade might fix it but I haven't gotten around to it. I'm certainly not calling Pioneer, though Also, I think Jack would fix LED issues in any released game, but it's still probably best to get your machine from someone other than Bene.

This is a bullshit statement, because "most of the people who have WOZ" bought from Jack or an authorized distributor and will be taken care of no questions asked. We're specifically talking about unauthorized sales, and even more specifically, a machine for sale from BenePinballs.

What if Bene sells the game to someone in Mexico? Is Jack supposed to support it then? What if he sells it two years from now? Whomever buys this game can receive all the support they need... from Bene himself. Or, if Bene opens and keeps it, he can go to Jack for any support needs.

You guys don't get it. The game IS warranted... to Bene, the original buyer. If it breaks, Bene needs to put in the service call, not the next owner, or the one after that, or the one after that.... etc. Cars are a different industry; we're talking electronics here.

If Bene sells the game, he can support that end user and then go to Jack for parts/service as needed.

"What if" is a phucked up world to live in ! Trust me I know !

Sure Bene was the original buyer?

Not to change the subject but, it will be interesting to see how smaller start ups like skit b, jpop, or others will handle warranty service with such a small company. I guess less games less problems.

The Pioneer is a different issue altogether.

When you buy a Pioneer product in the USA, you are being supported by a company called "Pioneer Electronics USA". This is a totally different company than the Pioneer located in Japan.

Pioneer Electronics USA buys receivers from Pioneer and distributes them in America. They make a profit on each one they sell, and offer warranty service on each one they sell.

If you buy a Pioneer receiver that is sold outside of the USA (the so called "grey market"), Pioneer Electronics USA never made any profit on it. Since they never made any money on it, they are not going to warranty it.

The actual Pioneer company in Japan WILL warranty their products, no matter where you bought them - but you have to send the receiver to Japan for service.

I was waiting for someone to say that!

Thank you!!

And to be clear, if someone buys a Rolex from an Authorized Dealer, Rolex will honor the warranty, no matter if you're the first, second, third, or tenth owner.

The problem from my perspective is that (and somebody correct me if I'm wrong) you can only legitimately buy a WOZ by pre-ordering years in advance. There doesn't appear to be any stock of brand new WOZ machines sold by authorized destributors. So, if you want to buy a WOZ and actually GET IT simultaniously, you have to give up your warranty rights. This puts Jersey Jack in a substantially different position than a company like Rolex, or Pioneer, where you are able to get a product pretty much immediately upon payment (or within a reasonable time after you pay).

In other words, by refusing to honor warranties due to a sale by the original owner to a 3rd party, Jersey Jack is basically preventing buyers who aren't willing to preorder from safely buying games on the secondary market. The ultimate message being sent is, "you better pre-order otherwise your warranty is questionable." As a potential purchaser, it's a little annoying because, if I want to buy a WOZ with a warranty, I have to wait for some indefinate period of time and I'm not comforatable with that business model. If I send $8000 to Jersey Jack, I have no true guaranty I'll get my money back if the company goes under. So, it's either, risk my funds by sending them to Jersey Jack and wait for an indefinate period so that I get a warranty, or, I buy one on the secondary market, get my game immediately, but risk having no warranty at all. I don't really like either of those options.

It seems to me that, because WOZ is not available to purchase on the primary market under normal terms (i.e. you get the product shortly after ordering) the reasonable thing to do would be to honor warranties for the first year regardless of transfer of ownership, so long as the transfer of ownership is registered with Jersey Jack. Or, in the alternative, make sure that there is stock available for the general public to buy. This whole "preoder" thing just causes a mess for so many reasons. Hopefully we'll see a move away from that model.

Incorrect, I bought my WOZLE from "Automated Services" (and authorized JJP dist) it was in stock. I also could have bought it from another jjp dist here in CA, but he only had regular versions (sold out of WOZLE).

I assume many of those distributors also bought in on the pre-sale and that’s why they had them.

Yes i paid more than those who bought in early, but i bought it to play it (not to collect and appreciate value). And now that my initial out of box issues are gone, i am quite a happy woz owner.

But i agree with most, this is a drama-fest, and Jack's comments could have been phrased much better.

*shrug*

Stern has always supported their products and taken care of their customers; regardless of if you are the original owner or not; this is definitely a bad move for JJP.

You're right, many don't get it. Because what you posted above doesn't mesh with what Alex was saying on here a month ago.

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/selling-huo-wizard-of-oz-le-pinball-machine-7000/page/3

Amnesia? Very selective memory for a few here.

If I was a Stern shill, this is exactly what I would post here.

I know we don't always agree...but that was good!

There is a lesson to be learned by Stern here: Never let Gary figure out how to use a computer.

I can see both sides of the argument here. In some ways I'm happy JJ won't honor a warranty from a non-distributer. This keep the jack-offs that buy two NIB machines, squire one away, then price gouge people looking for a title that is no longer in production. TronLE anyone?

You mean like this guy?

used-101.jpg

They do...for 6 months and then you have to pay for parts.

I bought my TronLE second hand and am very glad Stern still honored the warranty.

so if I buy something with a 1 year warranty at best buy and it breaks 6 months later best buy is going to help me? no way man it falls on the manufacturer... resellers are just that, resellers, some might be nice enough to give you a 30 day return policy, but how does the *manufacturer* warranty fall on the reseller? it's called a manufacturer warranty for a reason...

*Facepalm*

Ha! That pic makes me think of this guy we had in Florida....

It doesn't.

Warranty claims are handled........never mind, im not here to educate those who are dense lol

in what world do resellers honor/deal with manufacturer warranties?

the reality distortion field is strong in this thread

Yes, Stern's customer support is top notch..

The retailer (distributer you bought from) handles your warranty claims. When I was a retailer of X products (not important what I was selling), all claims were handled by myself in which I would deal directly with the manufacturer or wholesale distributer(who would then deal with the manufacturer).

You do realize that many of the people who are "squiring away games" are the distributors themselves? Automated routinely does this.

huh?

This is true.

You know....there are some cases where manufacturers want the end user to deal with them directly. Like the baby crib I bought not too long ago that had a big sticker on the bottom that said "for warranty claims do not contact the store you bought it from!" This is a rare case though....I doubt we have people squirreling away baby cribs just to mark them up by 150% a year later lol

It's a very easy move for a company that is confident in their product and market to say "Warranty is 1 year from date of manufacture" and not give two sh!ts about how it ended up in the customers hands.

In my opinion, there are very few reasons not to do that from a customer service standpoint.

I guess Jack can't have people cancelling their pre-order when they figure out they can get the same thing for less, and right now to boot.