![giphy[1].gif](https://o.pinside.com/d/97/5c/d975ce8887cc43b3a9843840723dca2d3f6ad5da.gif)
Smithtown, NY
I think of all the threads that have gone to crap on pinside this is one that deserves it. Poop.
(Topic ID: 50354)
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Taxi
Williams, 1988-
White Water
Williams, 1993
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How much did you guys pay for the topper? Rick takes 20% right off the top, so rick should be able to refund $60 if you paid twisted pins $300
Quoted from lordloss:How much did you guys pay for the topper? Rick takes 20% right off the top, so rick should be able to refund $60 if you paid twisted pins $300
very good point! Even if Rick is unable to provide leverage, he should at least be able to refund the licensing fee that I assume was paid to him.
Quoted from Whysnow:very good point! Even if Rick is unable to provide leverage, he should at least be able to refund the licensing fee that I assume was paid to him.
I would be more likely to get the topper than that. 
rd
Quoted from rotordave:I would be more likely to get the topper than that.
rd
Rick will hound you and threaten you if he suspects you're not paying for a license.. but when its the consumer losing out... well thats not his problem.
Melbourne
Quoted from lordloss:will hound you and threaten you if he suspects you're not paying for a license.. but when its the consumer losing out... well thats not his problem.
See what happens when you ask for a little compassion and customer service?..... a thread eject....
Why was Lordloss ejected for saying this? Rick will hound you and threaten you if he suspects you're not paying for a license.. but when its the consumer losing out... well thats not his problem. This is pretty much the truth. Was there profanity or something that was removed.
Quoted from zr11990:Why was Lordloss ejected for saying this? Rick will hound you and threaten you if he suspects you're not paying for a license.. but when its the consumer losing out... well thats not his problem. This is pretty much the truth. Was there profanity or something that was removed.
there was NO profanity. The comment is just as he originally posted it.
I agree that it is very strange. We should probably all open up moderator feedback threads since even discussing moderation is against Pinside TOS. I recently opened one as I have found the moderation to be increasingly inconsistent. I have requested that Robin look into the metadata of which moderators are doing some of this moderation and possibly do some moderation of his own moderators. Things like this are perfect examples or where any rational person does not see what lordloss said to be anything in violation.
Well this turned orwellian pretty quickly..
Consumers have a legitimate beef with PPS on these products - he authorized someone to make a product, and he possibly took a royalty for the units sold. Several people made payment and received absolutely nothing. He chose to deactivate his account rather than explain the situation. Those are facts.
I would wonder if the off topic-ness of the posts is causing the eject?
I will keep this comment on topic by saying I live in Boise and have never heard of this distributor. I'd love to become a pinball distributor though. I wonder if his "store" is for sale? Then I could provide the toppers at cost (I really would just do it as a hobby) and hopefully help people get their product.
Hey gang, let me update you all on what has happened here:
Lordloss was moderated for violating the "broken record" rule. I did not moderate him, but I understand why he was moderated. This was not a big deal, everyone should have just moved along. The merit of what he was saying is readily apparent to many, he was not moderated due to what he was saying rather how many times he repeated it.
The string of ejects and moderations that followed were due to attacks on the moderation and posters not following requests. We are very clear on this rule, please do not attack the volunteer moderation staff and encourage others to get their pitch forks and torches out. If you don't like what we are doing we will chat with you at length about it in a moderator feedback thread, Robin himself often weighs in there so you will hear from the bossman himself.
A couple of the posters who were ejected from this thread this morning have long moderator feedback threads already and, frankly, they know (or should know) better.
Please move along from this issue or start a mod feedback thread. Thank you for your time and attention.
Quoted from Deaconblooze:Those are facts.
I personally agree with those facts.
I didn't buy one and waited until they were to be delivered to PAGG, my WH20 was there in the color DMD lineup.
When the story was they couldn't get them on the plane my BS meter maxed out and that's when I knew it wasn't going to happen.
Last I heard they were done just having problems with the glue.
Laughable.
Yes, that plane thing really started to sketch me out, too. Then people were asking for pictures and videos, and they didn't deliver on that either. Finally a customer posted video which showed what a fail the product actually was. I was looking through the pages to make sure I remembered it all correctly (I did), and I ran across these gems:
in the OP
Quoted from TwistedPins:Twisted Pins is pleased to announce that we have released a Whitewater foil topper that is approved and available under the PPS license.
After people found out the repro was garbage, about 2 years ago..
Quoted from TwistedPins:We stand behind everything we sell.
Quoted from TwistedPins:Yes this has been a difficult project but we won't stop until we get it right and every customer is satisfied with their purchase!!
a year (or so) ago:
Quoted from TomN:They are more likely to update on the PPS forum...That was announced a few couple of months ago. Last I read it was in the home stretch, but haven't heard anything in a while.
8 months ago..
Quoted from northvibe:Has anyone asked Rick (pps) about an update? He has twist pins on his site as a licensed remaker of parts...
yours truly (5 months ago)..
Quoted from Deaconblooze:Rick - have you had any contact with the OP? It seems odd that you popped into this thread only after someone else mentioned giving an alternative topper a try..
4 months ago..
Quoted from aeneas:Doesn't the process to approving them to make it include that you at least get a sample to check the quality ?
The last of those went unaddressed, and is one of the most curious to me.. Didn't Rick himself try making the topper a while ago? Since he failed, he must have known that it was a difficult product to get right. What was the approval process? Someone simply saying "I want to make a wh20 topper, I'll give you a cut"? I'm pretty sure Twisted Pins used to be CardFelon, a pinsider with a pretty questionable past.. If Rick approved them to make this product without doing any sort of check on the product or the credibility of Twisted Pins, should the customer be on the hook for that?
When people started to question Rick's involvement he chose to deactivate rather than explain himself.
No, Rick should refund everyone since the PPS/BAA connection added credibility to the project which swayed people into buying.
He didn't do his due diligence IMO and should just man up and refund people and maybe a dollars off coupon off your next order.
Of course now that he is a monopoly you can just pound sand.
Quoted from markmon:Glad Rick is deactivated. Deactivated accounts can't PM innovative people to issue copyright threats to them. Cya
Indeed!!
Quoted from paynemic:I will keep this comment on topic by saying I live in Boise and have never heard of this distributor. I'd love to become a pinball distributor though
How about doing the group a solid and popping down there, and seeing if someone is there?
Here are the details.
7614 W. Lemhi St #9
Boise, Idaho 83709
888-379-2922
Thanks in advance!
rd
I think I will. Hopefully this is all a manufacturing issue. If there's a bunch of half done toppers, maybe people would rather have that than nothing?
Every time I see new posts in this thread I can't help but think 'maybe twisted pins finally pulled it off'
jpop supporter syndrome or something.
Sana'a
Rick is probably under contract to deliver the already paid for MMr's. So unless the contract has some clause about the foil WH2O, he probably can't do much about it.
Rick could refuse to take any new MMr orders, if he so chooses.
Somebody just needs to find the factory in China that make those tacky little "motion waterfall" pictures with the howling wolves on them that you see at every flea market.
It's the same technology, except there are little LEDs mounted in the frame.
Quoted from paynemic:I think I will. Hopefully this is all a manufacturing issue. If there's a bunch of half done toppers, maybe people would rather have that than nothing?
They never were able to successfully duplicate the topper, there was not even one made. The ones they did make were poor imitations with no 3d water effect.
Quoted from vid1900:Rick is probably under contract to deliver the already paid for MMr's. So unless the contract has some clause about the foil WH2O, he probably can't do much about it.
Rick could refuse to take any new MMr orders, if he so chooses.
I would just send him a dark blue knitted beanie and tell him to wear it with pride.
Rick -Planetary Pinball Sales is as bad as Travis - TwistedPins......
Both are very happy to take your money, but if there is a problem with their product or licensed produce produced! They both bury their heads in the sand regarding refunds or help with a replacement!!
Disgrace ...
Many emails sent to deaf ears to Twisted Pin, and only Excuses from Planetary Pinball Sales..
Quoted from Squizz:Rick -Planetary Pinball Sales is as bad as Travis - TwistedPins......
Both are very happy to take your money, but if there is a problem with their product or licensed produce produced! They both bury their heads in the sand regarding refunds or help with a replacement!!
Disgrace ...
Many emails sent to deaf ears to Twisted Pin, and only Excuses from Planetary Pinball Sales..
So the difference between PPS/BAA and Mad Amusements is?
Hey I didn't get ripped off by him so I should keep buying?
Just wanted to say that I'm very happy to have spoken to Rick at Planetary Pinball Sales just moments ago,
For Rick to go out of his way to call someone from the other side of the Globe and expain the whole process of what
has been going on in the backgound with the WW Topper. 
He is still going to trying to help us all in the end to recieve our purchased WW topper's.
Again thanks Rick for the call!
Really appreciated and amazed that someone could take their time to go out of there way to reach you.
Cheers - Pitchfork down, Flame torch out. 
Quoted from Squizz:Just wanted to say that I'm very happy to have spoken to Rick at Planetary Pinball Sales just moments ago,
For Rick to go out of his way to call someone from the other side of the Globe and expain the whole process of what
has been going on in the backgound with the WW Topper.
He is still going to trying to help us all in the end to recieve our purchased WW topper's.
Again thanks Rick for the call!
Really appreciated and amazed that someone could take their time to go out of there way to reach you.
Cheers - Pitchfork down, Flame torch out.
I bet he's working hard, that'd be $18000 he made in licensing fee's for a product that never shipped. $72000 in cash twisted pins stole is some serious cash.
Assuming 300 toppers were paid for.
Guys, I doubt Rick seen any money from Twisted for the WH20 toppers since Twisted never actually sold any. Travis taking pre-order money has really nothing to do with PPS unless he actually ships product. Royalties are generally paid for sold product not prepaid product. I know it sucks because I got hit on the Predator scam for 5000US. If Kev had an actual Licence for it but still never finished the project I don't think Fox or whoever owns the IP would have stepped up to refunded the money to pre payers. When we choose to pre pay we take a risk. What I can't believe is that Twisted Pins continues to operate and now uses Facebook as a platform to sell his ramps.
It wasn't a "preorder". Twisted said they had a product ready to go, and in many cases actually shipped it (I received one). That's what's more baffling, presumably they would have had to clear the product first. They avoided showing the product at shows or video online, and for good reason - it was shit. People received the product and quickly figured that out. I received one personally, but never even bothered opening it after seeing what garbage other people were posting.
I received a refund for my topper, less all shipping fees (to me and back to him). Even a simple refund for just the cost of the product was only made because I threatened legal action. I'm out 20-40 or whatever, not a big deal, but I don't like seeing other people get scammed.
Quoted from Deaconblooze:It wasn't a "preorder". Twisted said they had a product ready to go, and in many cases actually shipped it (I received one). That's what's more baffling, presumably they would have had to clear the product first. They avoided showing the product at shows or video online, and for good reason - it was shit. People received the product and quickly figured that out. I received one personally, but never even bothered opening it after seeing what garbage other people were posting.
I received a refund for my topper, less all shipping fees (to me and back to him). Even a simple refund for just the cost of the product was only made because I threatened legal action. I'm out 20-40 or whatever, not a big deal, but I don't like seeing other people get scammed.
Well that I never knew. Definitely sounds shifty on Twisted end. I hate to see people burnt as well. I hope there is a resolution to this at some point.
Quoted from lordloss:I bet he's working hard, that'd be $18000 he made in licensing fee's for a product that never shipped. $72000 in cash twisted pins stole is some serious cash.
Assuming 300 toppers were paid for.
No, not a fact and tired of seeing you post lie and after lie. Rick has never seen a dollar from TP for a WH2O topper. I usually stay far away from theses threads on Pinside as so many that post lies seem to truly believe what you say about our company and Rick but it gets to a point where enough is enough. PPS would only have sold them on our store if they were ever made and the product shipped to us , so again no dollar not even a penny was sent to PPS from TP for the Toppers. If you called Rick yourself or e-mailed to ask him, if you in fact really cared as you seem so passionate on this topic you would know real facts. But you don’t because then you would have the truth and no more lies to post day after day. BTW Rick did not tell me to post this just extremely exhausted from reading the false statements made about PPS/Rick.
Quoted from Xfilelover:No, not a fact and tired of seeing you post lie and after lie. Rick has never seen a dollar from TP for a WH2O topper. I usually stay far away from theses threads on Pinside as so many that post lies seem to truly believe what you say about our company and Rick but it gets to a point where enough is enough. PPS would only have sold them on our store if they were ever made and the product shipped to us , so again no dollar not even a penny was sent to PPS from TP for the Toppers. If you called Rick yourself or e-mailed to ask him, if you in fact really cared as you seem so passionate on this topic you would know real facts. But you don’t because then you would have the truth and no more lies to post day after day. BTW Rick did not tell me to post this just extremely exhausted from reading the false statements made about PPS/Rick.
Well he is the licensor so how was TP allowed to sell these without PPS seeing one and approving it first?
TP was not only allowed to sell these but you are saying PPS didn't get their fees either?
Where does the buck stop?
Ridiculous, a lot of these guys no longer have the game after two years, their money has been tied up and a half assed promise that they will get what they paid for "someday".
I hear the sound of one hand clapping.
Quoted from BBC:Never sold any? What is the crap that I bought from them with the non working foil?
Did it have the PPS hologram sticker?
Quoted from Xfilelover:No, not a fact and tired of seeing you post lie and after lie. Rick has never seen a dollar from TP for a WH2O topper. I usually stay far away from theses threads on Pinside as so many that post lies seem to truly believe what you say about our company and Rick but it gets to a point where enough is enough. PPS would only have sold them on our store if they were ever made and the product shipped to us , so again no dollar not even a penny was sent to PPS from TP for the Toppers. If you called Rick yourself or e-mailed to ask him, if you in fact really cared as you seem so passionate on this topic you would know real facts. But you don’t because then you would have the truth and no more lies to post day after day. BTW Rick did not tell me to post this just extremely exhausted from reading the false statements made about PPS/Rick.
So, wait - obtaining a license from ya'll is free?
.. Huh. Cool!
Quoted from Coyote:So, wait - obtaining a license from ya'll is free?
.. Huh. Cool!
Sounds like it. I asked a friend who licensed artwork for a project they did for a williams item and it was 20%. Not sure if that was gross or just on the profit.
3 weeks later
Hi, I don't have any pinball but whitewater is the one I have the fondest memories of, especially the topper. I read through this thread and I made me curious how one would reproduce the topper. Earlier it was mentioned that Philip Grear was the original artist who made the effect and had some deal with Williams and was involved in making it. I found he has two patents on the subject:
6,760,959
6,361,702
Both of these seem to be the same process, You take a .0003" aluminum foil and layer it onto something pliant of the same thickness then mount it to a plastic plate and micro engrave parallel lines on the surface at about 100/inch. The artistry comes in making the lines in swaths that differ in angle (actually i'm not sure what the trick is, but i'm dying to know) so chaser lights reflect off of them to make the animation. I might buy a cheap damaged topper to put it under my microscope and see the artist's work, or what's left of the evidence. Then you electroplate nickel and iron onto the foil to .01-.03" and then peel the foil off of it (destroying the original I imagine) and stick it in a web offset printer cylinder and then use metalized mylar and heat pressing which will seal the mylar to a print coming out of an offset color printer in the outline of the die cut you make and press the engravings of the die into it in one pass. I saw someone allege they talked to Grear and was told the plates are no more. (This makes sense because it's a rolling press and plates do wear out and there are no plate copies. Would be interesting to check different toppers for different impression depths, though not sure how. Microscope?)
Trick is, it's still covered by these patents. I think it's 20 years from 1999 or 2001, so not sure if his estate still keeps up on the patent. The referenced patents are an interesting read.
I found another modern company "Dufex" that prints those decorative pattens in packaging and their similar patent
5,168,646
Which Grear references, patented in 1991. What's interesting is the patent I found that google referenced with the UK based Dufex was actually registered to NCM International Inc in Chicago where Grear was/is based. (I heard mentioned he passed in this thread or another? If so, i'm sorry to not have the chance to talk to this fellow.) There seems to be some history with this graphics trick. It's referenced in the wikipedia article on Lenticular Printing, though not a lenticular process and the image is created differently, but applied the same way holograms are to things like credit cards.
Which leads me to believe you'll have to do some microscopy to see the original engraving art from the White Water topper and save the pattern to a computer and re-engrave it by CNC or even do it close enough by hand which would be quite the work, then there is even mention of an acid wash (though not which acid to etch nickel/iron) to deepen the ridges after the electroplate to make a sharper depression, and the photos of the reproduction in this thread that were not 'good enough' seemed to be a full sheet of foiled cardboard like a bounce card material due to the metal background around the border of the print, where the original seems to be a hot transfer only where the foil part of the image is. I don't think this has the reflectivity of the original, mylar is quite striking when metalized like those plastic metal balloons you see at the florist or those greeting cards with unicorns and shimmering backgrounds.
I got obsessed and didn't want my research to go to waste. Hope it's interesting. Links to patents and materials removed cause it's my first day with a username.
Quoted from howdoyouafford:Hi, I don't have any pinball but whitewater is the one I have the fondest memories of, especially the topper. I read through this thread and I made me curious how one would reproduce the topper. Earlier it was mentioned that Philip Grear was the original artist who made the effect and had some deal with Williams and was involved in making it. I found he has two patents on the subject:
6,760,959
6,361,702
Both of these seem to be the same process, You take a .0003" aluminum foil and layer it onto something pliant of the same thickness then mount it to a plastic plate and micro engrave parallel lines on the surface at about 100/inch. The artistry comes in making the lines in swaths that differ in angle so chaser lights reflect off of them to make the animation. I might buy a cheap damaged topper to put it under my microscope and see the artist's work, or what's left of the evidence. Then you electroplate nickel and iron onto the foil to .01-.03" and then peel the foil off of it (destroying the original I imagine) and stick it in a web offset printer cylinder and then use metalized mylar and heat pressing which will seal the mylar to a print coming out of an offset color printer in the outline of the die cut you make and press the engravings of the die into it in one pass.
Trick is, it's still covered by these patents. I think it's 20 years from 1999 or 2001, so not sure if his estate still keeps up on the patent. The referenced patents are an interesting read.
I found another modern company "Dufex" that prints those decorative pattens in packaging and their similar patent
5,168,646
Which Grear references, patented in 1991. What's interesting is the patent I found that google referenced with the UK based Dufex was actually registered to NCM International Inc in Chicago where Grear was/is based. (I heard mentioned he passed in this thread or another? If so, i'm sorry to not have the chance to talk to this fellow.) There seems to be some history with this graphics trick. It's referenced in the wikipedia article on Lenticular Printing, though not a lenticular process and the image is created differently, but applied the same way holograms are to things like credit cards.
Which leads me to believe you'll have to do some microscopy to see the original engraving art from the White Water topper and save the pattern to a computer and re-engrave it by CNC or even do it close enough by hand which would be quite the work, then there is even mention of an acid wash (though not which acid to etch nickel/iron) to deepen the ridges after the electroplate to make a sharper depression, and the photos of the reproduction in this thread that were not 'good enough' seemed to be a full sheet of foiled cardboard like a bounce card material due to the metal background around the border of the print, where the original seems to be a hot transfer only where the foil part of the image is. I don't think this has the reflectivity of the original, mylar is quite striking when metalized like those plastic metal balloons you see at the florist or those greeting cards with unicorns and shimmering backgrounds.
I got obsessed and didn't want my research to go to waste. Hope it's interesting. Links to patents and materials removed cause it's my first day with a username.
This is the stuff that makes Pinside so F'ing great! 
Quoted from howdoyouafford:Hi, I don't have any pinball but whitewater is the one I have the fondest memories of, especially the topper. I read through this thread and I made me curious how one would reproduce the topper. Earlier it was mentioned that Philip Grear was the original artist who made the effect and had some deal with Williams and was involved in making it. I found he has two patents on the subject:
6,760,959
6,361,702
Both of these seem to be the same process, You take a .0003" aluminum foil and layer it onto something pliant of the same thickness then mount it to a plastic plate and micro engrave parallel lines on the surface at about 100/inch. The artistry comes in making the lines in swaths that differ in angle so chaser lights reflect off of them to make the animation. I might buy a cheap damaged topper to put it under my microscope and see the artist's work, or what's left of the evidence. Then you electroplate nickel and iron onto the foil to .01-.03" and then peel the foil off of it (destroying the original I imagine) and stick it in a web offset printer cylinder and then use metalized mylar and heat pressing which will seal the mylar to a print coming out of an offset color printer in the outline of the die cut you make and press the engravings of the die into it in one pass.
Trick is, it's still covered by these patents. I think it's 20 years from 1999 or 2001, so not sure if his estate still keeps up on the patent. The referenced patents are an interesting read.
I found another modern company "Dufex" that prints those decorative pattens in packaging and their similar patent
5,168,646
Which Grear references, patented in 1991. What's interesting is the patent I found that google referenced with the UK based Dufex was actually registered to NCM International Inc in Chicago where Grear was/is based. (I heard mentioned he passed in this thread or another? If so, i'm sorry to not have the chance to talk to this fellow.) There seems to be some history with this graphics trick. It's referenced in the wikipedia article on Lenticular Printing, though not a lenticular process and the image is created differently, but applied the same way holograms are to things like credit cards.
Which leads me to believe you'll have to do some microscopy to see the original engraving art from the White Water topper and save the pattern to a computer and re-engrave it by CNC or even do it close enough by hand which would be quite the work, then there is even mention of an acid wash (though not which acid to etch nickel/iron) to deepen the ridges after the electroplate to make a sharper depression, and the photos of the reproduction in this thread that were not 'good enough' seemed to be a full sheet of foiled cardboard like a bounce card material due to the metal background around the border of the print, where the original seems to be a hot transfer only where the foil part of the image is. I don't think this has the reflectivity of the original, mylar is quite striking when metalized like those plastic metal balloons you see at the florist or those greeting cards with unicorns and shimmering backgrounds.
I got obsessed and didn't want my research to go to waste. Hope it's interesting. Links to patents and materials removed cause it's my first day with a username.
I own a commercial printing company and looked into this project. I can tell you we will never see the reproduction of the wh2o topper (at least not at a reasonable price). They got way in over there heads even trying this project. It is definitely not as easy as it looks. I'm waiting on laserifics version hopefully soon.
Quoted from howdoyouafford:Hi, I don't have any pinball but whitewater is the one I have the fondest memories of, especially the topper. I read through this thread and I made me curious how one would reproduce the topper. Earlier it was mentioned that Philip Grear was the original artist who made the effect and had some deal with Williams and was involved in making it. I found he has two patents on the subject:
6,760,959
6,361,702
Both of these seem to be the same process, You take a .0003" aluminum foil and layer it onto something pliant of the same thickness then mount it to a plastic plate and micro engrave parallel lines on the surface at about 100/inch. The artistry comes in making the lines in swaths that differ in angle (actually i'm not sure what the trick is, but i'm dying to know) so chaser lights reflect off of them to make the animation. I might buy a cheap damaged topper to put it under my microscope and see the artist's work, or what's left of the evidence. Then you electroplate nickel and iron onto the foil to .01-.03" and then peel the foil off of it (destroying the original I imagine) and stick it in a web offset printer cylinder and then use metalized mylar and heat pressing which will seal the mylar to a print coming out of an offset color printer in the outline of the die cut you make and press the engravings of the die into it in one pass. I saw someone allege they talked to Grear and was told the plates are no more. (This makes sense because it's a rolling press and plates do wear out and there are no plate copies. Would be interesting to check different toppers for different impression depths, though not sure how. Microscope?)
Trick is, it's still covered by these patents. I think it's 20 years from 1999 or 2001, so not sure if his estate still keeps up on the patent. The referenced patents are an interesting read.
I found another modern company "Dufex" that prints those decorative pattens in packaging and their similar patent
5,168,646
Which Grear references, patented in 1991. What's interesting is the patent I found that google referenced with the UK based Dufex was actually registered to NCM International Inc in Chicago where Grear was/is based. (I heard mentioned he passed in this thread or another? If so, i'm sorry to not have the chance to talk to this fellow.) There seems to be some history with this graphics trick. It's referenced in the wikipedia article on Lenticular Printing, though not a lenticular process and the image is created differently, but applied the same way holograms are to things like credit cards.
Which leads me to believe you'll have to do some microscopy to see the original engraving art from the White Water topper and save the pattern to a computer and re-engrave it by CNC or even do it close enough by hand which would be quite the work, then there is even mention of an acid wash (though not which acid to etch nickel/iron) to deepen the ridges after the electroplate to make a sharper depression, and the photos of the reproduction in this thread that were not 'good enough' seemed to be a full sheet of foiled cardboard like a bounce card material due to the metal background around the border of the print, where the original seems to be a hot transfer only where the foil part of the image is. I don't think this has the reflectivity of the original, mylar is quite striking when metalized like those plastic metal balloons you see at the florist or those greeting cards with unicorns and shimmering backgrounds.
I got obsessed and didn't want my research to go to waste. Hope it's interesting. Links to patents and materials removed cause it's my first day with a username.
did he own embossing concepts who made them
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