Care to share why?

Sorry for the derail . It was regarding my MMr. And all is well.

Twisted Pins, you are nothing more than a Bull shitter!
your day will come.

Perhaps the guys making 3-d translights in Germany could get this made? Rick from pps is working with them to.

Do not care myself if he is working with them or not, as there was no help from him regarding our lost $$ with Twisted Pins...
All they care about is lining their own pockets!

Do not PM me Rick,
Leave it here for all of us to read please !

PPS_(resized).jpg

You sir are just as bad as Twisted Pins.
You gave them the rights to make this reproduiction under your Licence "Planetary pinball sales"
And have since wipped your hands also on all of US...

Yes, because I have worked behind the scenes to get the Whitewater foils which TP says that they have and I keep asking and asking and trying to get ahold of travis, who has said he has the foils, but somehow cannot provide them to me or anyone else.

So, no problem you can post my PM's, because you post in that I'm somehow supposed to strongarm this stuff from him, when I am 8 hours away, and somehow I am supposed to do what that I have not already done.

Nothing to hide on this one ... travis is the issue, and I have tried and tried and tried to get a resolution to this, but I cannot get water out of a rock.

Nice one.

rick

Yes, because someone has approval to make a product that somehow I am responsible for their actions and accountable for all that they do ... especially when they were credible up to the time that they were working on the product. I certainly am trying to get Travis to produce the goods and fix his issues for his customers, but sorry I am not responsible for others just because you can happen to be able to talk with me ... and I will continue to try to get a resolution with travis because that is the right thing for me to try to do.

rick

dont you also control if they are allowed to be a distributor for MMr? Seems to me you have some leverage since they are a MMr reseller???

Just read this whole saga of a thread, being relatively new here, I'm yet again late to the party. It's pretty disheartening, but I guess these things happen.

What intrigues me the most though is how we cannot reverse engineer something that William's did back in the early 90's with all the additional technology that is now commonplace in today's society. They say that about the Saturn V rockets: Even with all the technology we have, it would be near impossible to reverse engineer the rocket (as it was originally built, bolt for bolt), as a lot of the information regarding the engineering practices has since been lost through the years.

A similar thing happened at Knoebels Amusement Park in PA recently: Their in-house engineers decided to reverse engineer a wooden bobsled style rollercoaster that is near identical in design to a specific ride that once was in Chicago--something that hasn't existed for many years. While they had the track designed and laid out, it took them several years (and subsequent 'pushing back the grand opening') to actually get it open. The mastery knowledge of the train design and woodgrain patterns in rollercoasters was simply lost in time, and the engineers had to essentially teach themselves a lost art.

reverse engineering isn't always the best way to recreate something anyway. This can be recreated many ways (LCD replacement, electrolumincent tape), but it's going to take someone to invest the time. As it has been proven over and over, the pre-order model doesn't work (you can't assume anything in business). Make a product, prove it works, then take orders and make many more.

Unfortunately, that model is creating casualties as well as there are very few interesting in risking investment in pinball items, especially when you have signups and then people bail almost instantly. We just had it happen on a couple of items where people 'committed' to buy and then they disappear when we ask for them to follow thru ... it's a pretty high percentage for some other suppliers as well, making them very gun-shy unless there is a pre-order. Not clear there is a good answer unfortunately, which will result in less stuff overall.

Excellent point, and I couldn't agree more. Just added my thoughts on the matter, since it looked like TP was reverse engineering the dies for the foil on this topper.

We need a pinball escrow.

Why can't someone else commit To this project and Rick fires twisted pines? Also, what happened to the original die-cast template from original press?

I just noticed that Rick PPS deactivated himself after last comments....?
If this is true, that may say it all.

I don't blame him for deactivating. Everyone is beating up on him for things that aren't his fault. The messenger, as they say, has been shot one too many times.

I don't like lots of things Rick has said, but this is all on twisted pins. They did the Taxi spinout which was great.. Then promptly burned that cred with this decal. I imagine Rick has a million better things to do.

Ooof. I really hope I wasn't responsible for any of this. I wasn't even trying to stir the pot. Just thought it was interesting from an engineering point of view after reading all the comments and watching all those posted videos.

This is such a Travisty.

dont worry about it. He likes to run away with his ball and blame others...

Here's the big issue..Rick owns the rights currently...why doesn't PPS make them, anything? He takes a fee and let's others make his product. If PPs owns the rights than they should be making everything.

I don't understand how a sample part is not required before the rights to manufacture are given?

I have recently emailed Travis asking for a resolution to my order for 1x topper, 2 covers plus postage.

He hasn't responded to any of my emails.

Are there any Pinsiders in Boise who are willing to go down there?

rd

Williams didn't make it, it was a small external company.

I did some research and have a lead on the owner.. tried to get some local people in Chicago to follow up on it but no one had time or was really interested.
If anyone is in Chicago and wants to spend some time (google, drive around, make some phone calls) then let me know and I'll provide info.
It's probably a dead end but you never know its still possible to repro the originals.. (and then I'd like at least one free for providing the lead

I haven't looked closely at my topper but is it not just embossed foil paper?
If you had the paper/foil printed .
You could probably emboss it one using a silhouette cameo and the embossing tool.

Id imagine the original was done with a wheel like this machine
3fdc_(resized).jpg

Maybe because they too do not wish to be scammed?

After reading about all this Whitewater Topper Blunder ( He is going to replace non working WW Toppers soon, next month, next year etc etc - Also will refund you if you are unhappy with product - to where no one returns your emails )

Rick - Grow a pair and get Travis to refund US.
Why not Cancel their MMr. But No, you would lose too much $$$$.

Rick you're just as bad as he is!

You stated above that you worked in the backgroung with TP with the WW Topper. But you seem to wipe your hands from the problem that you allowed TP to reproduce these and Sell them to the publick!

Now you too run and hide from it all...............

P.s - Don't let the door smack you in the (_*_) on the way out!

I'm not sure what in god's name you were talking about. Is this whole thing an absolute cluster $?@&"?? Absolutely! But please explain to me from a legal standpoint or personal standpoint how Rick has any leverage at all over twisted pins in this situation? Exactly what is he supposed to take away from Travis when there is nothing to take away. If you're going to come on here and rant and bash someone, you should at least try to make sense. Rick has absolutely nothing he can take away from Travis at this point, not to mention, nobody knows where the hell Travis is or how to find him. It's not like he's currently still taking orders on games from Travis or giving them rights to other things to manufacture. There's nothing to take away

he can take away his distributorship of MMr. he can refuse to give him MMr games unless he provides evidence of refund to ALL people that Travis has stolen from for the topper.

It really is not that hard to apply some pressure. Heck, if Rick does it correctly he could possibly get Travis to refund for all the topper cash and then still pull his MMr orders and sell directly to those buyers to make more $$$.

Because that is not always how a business works. Ford owns the rights to 'Mustang.' Do you really think they make every single piece of merch that is out there for the Mustang? By your logic, Ford should have built the Mustang pinball, not Stern.

It is, but the big trick is getting the pattern right so the light is reflected properly. The original die was lost years ago, so any progress that was/is done starts from scratch.

You're missing the point. The only people it hurts at this point if he takes away Travis' right to distribute MMR games are the people who have paid for them. It doesn't hurt Travis in anyway shape or form. Travis is dust in the wind, he left all of this crap long behind, so if you think that somehow hurts him, you're absolutely wrong!

And any chances of getting Travis to refund anything at this point unfortunately is truly like trying to get blood out of a rock! It's pretty obvious the Travis washed his hands of all of this both mentally and financially along time ago. That's my point, you don't have leverage against someone who has nothing to leverage. You can't do anything at this point that's going to hurt him and benefit those who's money he took other than to prosecute him and that's not something Rick has any control over.

It really is such a terrible bummer that it ended up like this. The spinout ramp and the MPF cover for DW that he made were a huge deal.

His approach is just backwards.. If someone comes up with some improved code for a game, or a re-orchestration of sound, he's right there threatening legal action (and from what I've seen has a pretty unprofessional approach in doing so). Some guy with a shady past says he wants to make a topper and he gives them the go ahead to start collecting money.

Why not try to help those that have a value-added product ready? Those that have put in the work to make his games better? If it's a licensing problem, why not try to help them?

At best he's a poor businessman. Some of the best ideas in the hobby are stifled because of greed.

What were the terms of the deal with Travis? Did PPS collect any royalties or payment in some other method? If so, why hasn't that money (however small) been paid back to those that got scammed. If no money has gotten to PPS, doesn't he have as much grounds to take Travis to court as anyone else he's ever threatened?

Pretty sure Travis has some profits for being a MMr distributor???

Highly doubtful that he has any coming to him from this point forward. That's about the only thing you could attach at this point, and even at that, Rick would still have to go through the legal channels of getting a judgment against him to legally withhold any of those if they are even funneled through PPS.

There are thousands of parts he can make, have to assume that the effort to get this one made is not worth it to him. Others have tried without success, so while it seems that this should not be that hard, clearly it is a lot harder than you would think.

While it seems clear Rick has tried to get some resolution here, but he is only willing to go so far and put in so much effort. However, Whysnow has certainly raised some interesting points that indicate that Rick may have some additional leverage he has not chosen to use. While I can't say for certain, seems to me that twisted is selling PPS authorized products on their site and I have to assume that Twisted has been paying Rick his royalties on the items twisted is selling (or he would be all over them), so it would seem that Rick could be sending them a C&D relative to that until they make good on this topper thing. So which is more important to Rick, continuing to get that revenue or getting the pre-pay buyers of these toppers their refunds?

no, he just needs to apply some leverage to get topper refunds completed and then it is all good.

The mere threat (which he seems to be very good at in most situations) could be enough to get Travis in gear.

BINGO!

It will just end up in the public anyway.

What part of Travis not giving a shit about any of this anymore is so confusing? Travis doesn't care whether not he's a distributor and he doesn't care about the toppers anymore. That equals zero leverage. You're trying to create some sort of strong-arm opportunity that simply doesn't exist. While I think it's a noble thought, it's just not realistic.

Glad Rick is deactivated. Deactivated accounts can't PM innovative people to issue copyright threats to them. Cya

Markmon, I don't always see eye to eye with you, but somebody had to say it!

I have a feeling this is going to be a much better place from now on.

So you're allowed to infringe on copyright law if the owner can't "PM" you? I"m confused.

He'll PM you if you infringe on a bowel movement.

Well, I did crap out a perfect WH2O topper one time but I didn't figure there was a market for it so I just flushed.

That's one more than Twisted Pins made.

rd

Perhaps a bowel movement in both of their honors is in order.

I think of them every time I poop.

rd