Quoted from uncivil_engineer:(vector graphics)
With the new digital printing and no screens in theory there's no longer a need to do everything vector, high rez raster art should be just fine. Which means a scan and cleanup could be done much easier than a full vector redraw.
Assuming Kevin agrees with that. 
Quoted from Aurich:With the new digital printing and no screens in theory there's no longer a need to do everything vector, high rez raster art should be just fine. Which means a scan and cleanup could be done much easier than a full vector redraw.
Assuming Kevin agrees with that.
I am guessing cut lines would still need to be vectors. I'm curious how one would approach raster art for something that was originally screened.
I'm also now curious how the digital printing of the vectors works. Does it accommodate what would effectively be slight translucency in a layer so that when it's overlapped over another that it creates a new color?
If I'm vectorizing plastics that were originally silk screened, I only have to concern myself with identifying the main colors and I have to ensure that any overlaps are captured in each color layer, and the silk screening process will take care of any resulting colors that come about from multiple layers overlapping.
If I'm producing a raster image of those same plastics, I now have to be concerned with the resulting color from any overlaps. I suppose a layered raster image could be made.
Let's say I had a yellow layer overlapping a blue layer. Flattened vector art with no translucency would just show that as yellow, whereas a layered silk screening would result in a green (perhaps more so when light shines through). So if I'm producing a raster image, I'm losing the concept of depth from the layers, and I'm also potentially not capturing (or misrepresenting) the mixes that result from them.
I'm am an amateur in image processing and printing, so I don't really know how a lot of this works, and could be wrong in my assumptions.
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:I think I could create the digital artwork if it meant I got myself a free playfield.
Did you see the list of artists, impressive. Now we have another ( - :
Interesting idea, community collaboration...
That is great news for the Pinball market as a whole. This is a small industry and a change like this can help cultivate new fans and hobbyists. Thanks to Kevin and the guys at CPR. Can't wait for my Pinbot plastics!
Quoted from winteriscoming:I am guessing cut lines would still need to be vectors. I'm curious how one would approach raster art for something that was originally screened.
I'm also now curious how the digital printing of the vectors works. Does it accommodate what would effectively be slight translucency in a layer so that when it's overlapped over another that it creates a new color?
If I'm vectorizing plastics that were originally silk screened, I only have to concern myself with identifying the main colors and I have to ensure that any overlaps are captured in each color layer, and the silk screening process will take care of any resulting colors that come about from multiple layers overlapping.
If I'm producing a raster image of those same plastics, I now have to be concerned with the resulting color from any overlaps. I suppose a layered raster image could be made.
Let's say I had a yellow layer overlapping a blue layer. Flattened vector art with no translucency would just show that as yellow, whereas a layered silk screening would result in a green (perhaps more so when light shines through). So if I'm producing a raster image, I'm losing the concept of depth from the layers, and I'm also potentially not capturing (or misrepresenting) the mixes that result from them.
I'm am an amateur in image processing and printing, so I don't really know how a lot of this works, and could be wrong in my assumptions.
I'm not a total expert at the graphics, but I have done a fair amount of stuff for work, including both large-scale digital printing for signage and booth graphics as well as offset printing which uses the CMYK format. From what I see so far, it looks like this is a complete digital printing process. That means as you said and as I mentioned before, you don't need vector art necessarily. In fact, you won't even use vector art for the printing even if you created it that way. You will be converting your vector art to a bitmap in order to print it. There are still lots of good reasons to create the art as vector, but if you make a 300 dpi bitmap file at the correct physical dimensions then it will be basically the same. Its possible that 200 dpi or 150 dpi might even work. That is a detail CPR should be able to provide.
So looking at what you wrote above, from my past experience, whatever you are making there in Photoshop or Illustrator or whatever with the layers, the transparencies, and so forth is going to be boiled down to a flattened, single layer RGB file and that's what the printer will take in and print.
At some point you will have to deal with gamuts if you want to get picky about colors. There has been some discussion on that already. The gamuts are different for the ink printing process, the offset printing, the digital printing, as well of course as on your monitor. So these things can degenerate into somewhat of a technical mess if the customer is very picky about color. Just making a file look exactly like you want on your uncalibrated color computer monitor in no way is going to guarantee you will get the end result you want.
The good thing about digital printing is that if you make a test proof on a typical inket printer it probably will be visually close to what this would be. But I am guessing this big printer CPR has will have a bigger gamut so that needs to be considered.
Quoted from xsvtoys:In fact, you won't even use vector art for the printing even if you created it that way.
Although this is true a vector rendering can be converted without loss or artifacts to the native resolution of the print method. Important, plus no compression problems. Very superior.
Quoted from Aurich:in theory there's no longer a need to do everything vector, high rez raster art should be just fine. Which means a scan and cleanup could be done much easier than a full vector redraw.
For plastics and glasses - this could/would/should be suitable, as long as the resolution is there, and it IS a true redraw (as much as possible). I don't think anybody wants essentially a non-redrawn "color-copy" of a cleaned-up scan printed to new media. A re-draw does mean a re-draw. The only exception in recent years is trying to get photographic/oil-painting type backglass artwork off a scan of an NOS source. One then kinda has to stick to leaving the main artwork alone, and only deal with redrawing the fresh score windows, fonts, title logo, white layer, lightblock layer, etc. You can't "redraw" the oil painting found on Paragon's glass, for example.
Playfields are another animal - because there needs to be the ability to scale/move things around to fit as perfectly as possible to features on the wood. You can get a $300 Cruze scan of a playfield, off a $500,000 fine art scanner... and use that as a background guide to redraw a whole new art package... but I can tell you, once it's physically printed to say a clear film, and laid down on the physical wood - it's often up to 1/8" too wide, too tall, too short, etc. Then the "tweaking" begins to make it marry to the wood perfectly. Doing small stretches/shrinks to the length. Pulling an insert ring 1/16" to the right. Etc Etc.
There is no utopian system, and a playfield layout does take final verification and tweaking before ever considering the artwork final/usable. I always used the transparency method - printing the artwork to clear film (see-thru) and laying it down on the actual whitewood for analysis. Make your changes. Print another transparency. Lay it down. Check your work. Make more changes and tweaks. Print another transparency. Etc. I got to the point I could do it in two passes. But for somebody starting out, it's likely going to be more.
I fear being bootstrapped to raster for playfields will allow no freedom to grab and move anything around. Crucial for playfields. Which one will find out when they lay down their first transparency of everything they have drawn.
The key for playfields is the artwork must arrive glove-fit and scaled properly.
Backglasses are a rectangle of X by Y in width/height. Way easy. None of the drama or tweaking. Plastics are similar.
Quoted from xsvtoys:There are still lots of good reasons to create the art as vector, but if you make a 300 dpi bitmap file at the correct physical dimensions then it will be basically the same. Its possible that 200 dpi or 150 dpi might even work. That is a detail CPR should be able to provide.
...and we will provide those details in due time.
Basically, vectorized redraws, with no layering required (WYSIWYG on your screen) is all I can generally say right now to quickly answer the question. If you're doing that, you're safe, and everything you are doing is controllable/scalable/movable later. That will have most who are "raring to go" guaranteed 95% on the correct path. We can deal with final details later. We're not open for submissions just yet. It was an idea for the future - like the end of the year we should be ready.
Reason being, we're in the midst of one primary thing at this moment - getting those ~130 mothballed CPR plastics and glasses since 2004, all back into availability from the digital suite. That will be a couple more months. After that, we move onto the CPR playfield back-catalog, getting all our sold-out titles available again for on-demand ordering. THEN we can open up for hobby submissions.
The new site will be online in about 3-4 weeks I'd say... it will include the guidelines section for preferred format and considerations.
If anything, that gives those interested a good 5 months to get their ducks in a row. Whether they are stewing on a custom project, or a "D-list" repro project they always wanted to see done. Stuff like that.
We realise many are excited with possibilities. We just don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves here. Baby steps through our ramp-up process. We have a great deal of work to see completed to get our back-catalog available. That has to come first. Pet projects/ideas later. Hope everybody understands.
KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com
Quoted from KevinCPR:I don't think anybody wants essentially a non-redrawn "color-copy" of a cleaned-up scan printed to new media. A re-draw does mean a re-draw.
I'd rather have the cleaned up scan over someone doing a vector redraw of the original actually. Might depend on the art in question, and of course the quality of the original being scanned, quality of the scan and cleanup, but in general I don't want someone's attempt at recreating the original artist's line quality with vectors.
Playfields are a different beast, having done original playfield art now I hear your concerns completely.
Thanks Kevin, great info.
Good luck on the project, and we have some time to start working on those art files. I have some ideas, but it’s gonna take a good while to get some art produced. 5 months will go by plenty quick!
Just to summarize, if you stick with vector art for your digital design, you don’t have to worry about 300 dpi or any dpi, or overall size. You will be able to scale it to whatever size/resolution you want with perfect resolution. It’s definitely the best way to go, but possibly not suitable for all types of artwork. If it has to be bitmap, it’s probably best to work at actual size with 300 dpi, maybe even higher. You can always go down in resolution, but never up without some loss.
Here is an example of a redone vector piece of pinball artwork. Not only completely redone to vector art, but the art was modified by adding the rest of her legs which are not shown on the Bon Voyage backglass. Of course this attached file is a bitmap jpg made from the vector art, but it can be made to any desired size always with perfect resolution. So many possibilities!
Quoted from KevinCPR:When we get to the point where we're ready to accept those kind of projects from individuals in the hobby, that will be the whole point.
If I wanted to take a crack at doing the art for a playfield, do you have any tips on how to get started? Dimensions of the playfield? What things are you looking for? Do you have any test files I can use to get started?
I've never seen a full playfield artwork file, and I am not sure if it is even possible to see one because how could it be shared? If it were a bitmap at full size with high resolution like 300dpi, it would be a huge file, at least a few hundred megabytes I would guess. If an entire playfield were completely recreated as vector art, the file size would be much smaller. But that would be a massive undertaking. I'm sure it has been done but I can't imagine how much work that would be. If someone has made one I would love to see what it looks like.
Here is an example of a single plastic that I did as an experiment. Again this pic of course as a bitmap of the vector art file, but rest assured that this is a full vector file. It is compared to a photo of the plastic and a scan of the graphic. The vector SVG file is only about 25k file size.
Granted I am far from a pro, but I'm not gonna lie, it was a lot of work just to get that single plastic recreated as all vector art. And this is a fairly simple graphic really. More complex graphics take more time and effort. Just recreating an entire set of plastics would be a pretty hefty job timewise.
Light Shield M-1330-107-2 graphic comparison small (resized).jpg
Quoted from xsvtoys:I've never seen a full playfield artwork file, and I am not sure if it is even possible to see one because how could it be shared? If it were a bitmap at full size with high resolution like 300dpi, it would be a huge file, at least a few hundred megabytes I would guess.
File sizes in the range you are talking about aren’t a problem. I routinely work with (and share) art that is hundreds of megabytes in size. Those problems were solved a long time ago, and there are many options.
Quoted from Brijam:File sizes in the range you are talking about aren’t a problem. I routinely work with (and share) art that is hundreds of megabytes in size. Those problems were solved a long time ago, and there are many options.
Yeah, it's easy to share them, and the layered file isn't something you'd share anyways.
So for example, the layered Photoshop file for my Alien playfield is 2.89 gigabytes, but the flattened TIFF for printing is only 381 megabytes, easy to send over WeTransfer or the like.
Quoted from xsvtoys:I've never seen a full playfield artwork file, and I am not sure if it is even possible to see one because how could it be shared? If it were a bitmap at full size with high resolution like 300dpi, it would be a huge file, at least a few hundred megabytes I would guess. If an entire playfield were completely recreated as vector art, the file size would be much smaller. But that would be a massive undertaking. I'm sure it has been done but I can't imagine how much work that would be. If someone has made one I would love to see what it looks like.
Here is an example of a single plastic that I did as an experiment. Again this pic of course as a bitmap of the vector art file, but rest assured that this is a full vector file. It is compared to a photo of the plastic and a scan of the graphic. The vector SVG file is only about 25k file size.
Granted I am far from a pro, but I'm not gonna lie, it was a lot of work just to get that single plastic recreated as all vector art. And this is a fairly simple graphic really. More complex graphics take more time and effort. Just recreating an entire set of plastics would be a pretty hefty job timewise.
Don't miss the part number from the edge.
All I can say is thank you. You guys rock and have made a couple of my games fantastic for a whole new generation to enjoy! looking forward to being able to order any plastic set you offer and not having to wait for it to be on a run!
So,.. just who am I gonna talk to about a Bride of Pinbot playfield then, once this is all up and running.. CPR seem to have done all the BOP plastics,.. faces, mini playfield and translite,.. but cant see if they had ever done a BOP playfield run,.. and I really like the idea of dialling in an order rather than joining a queue,.. or hoping for a rerun
Quoted from mcbPalisade:Can you share the brand/model of digital press you selected? Thanks
It won't be a press it will just be a flatbed printer
Quoted from Ballypinball:It won't be a press it will just be a flatbed printer
Any details? Want to check out the technology, not compete with CPR ( - :
Ours is a lej 640FT
https://www.rolanddga.com/products/printers/versauv-lej-640ft-flatbed-uv-printer
Better than a 300k machine
As it uses flexible ink and registers perfect for cmyk white cmykwhite you can layer the ink
We have been doing this stuff since 2000 and invented next gen
The printer is only one part the special software that image sets the art and controls ink level without the printer is useless
Quoted from Pinzap:Nice printer... but I hear the company makes all its money on the ink cartridges!!
yes but the ink is why its good and a cost of doing business
Quoted from mrWol64:So,.. just who am I gonna talk to about a Bride of Pinbot playfield
Bride of Pinbot playfields have been already been run a couple years ago, and re-running recently, by Peter in Germany:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bop-bride-of-pinbot-playfield-repro-2018-pl-50002
BoP playfields are Peter's tacit 'territory', and he's got all the programming and groundwork already done to run them. So CPR won't be going near that playfield title, unless Peter wants to pass on all his materials to us to continue its legacy. We're not going to duplicate all his hard work in the interim.
Quoted from jhagen:So when it comes to making one-off PF requests from the back catalog-What about unique inserts? Didn’t that hold up TOTAN for a while?
We stock all the ready-go insert sets, or we don't list the playfield up for orders. It'll be that simple, really.
ok, so why dont you produce backglasses?
you already deal with PPS, you could do a deal with CPR for their files
save us Aussies getting hosed on postage
Quoted from KevinCPR:Bride of Pinbot playfields have been already been run a couple years ago, and re-running recently, by Peter in Germany:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bop-bride-of-pinbot-playfield-repro-2018-pl-50002
BoP playfields are Peter's tacit 'territory', and he's got all the programming and groundwork already done to run them. So CPR won't be going near that playfield title, unless Peter wants to pass on all his materials to us to continue its legacy. We're not going to duplicate all his hard work in the interim.
,.. mind you,.. it makes it interesting when the competition has moved to an “almost” click and order supply method as opposed to signing up to a run,.. and maybe missing out coz cash and timing weren’t good,.. may have to do my PB first Quoted from PopBumperPete:ok, so why dont you produce backglasses?
you already deal with PPS, you could do a deal with CPR for their files
save us Aussies getting hosed on postage
We already have permission to yes , but that's a cpr product.
We do cabinet art and translites and we don't ship glass
Quoted from WeatherbyMAG:Best announcement I have seen since I've been in the Pinball hobby.....Along with Pinball Pimp constantly adding to his stencil lineup, this is going to be great for future restorations.
Thanks for the compliments on my stencils! I aim to please! Jeff
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:A quick question for CPR. You have converted Star Trek the Next Generation into a mirrored backglass/translight. I love how you did that. With this new model could you do one offs for mirrored backglasses/translights? And can you convert any translight? For example, I would really Love to have a mirrored Terminator 2 backglass/translight, but if i am the only one who wants this could you make one just for me with your new machine and process??
I'd be in for a T2 backglass!
Will you be considering the two piece playfields that you previously were not going to re-run? Specifically Black Knight.
Will you be offering the service whereby customers can send in their prepped pf for you to print on rather than starting from scratch? I have seen it mentioned in this thread but there was no definite yea or nay.
It will be interesting to compare the screenprinted original run playfields with the digital print short runs of the same title.
Are there obvious differences Kevin?
Thanks
I eagerly await ordering an Eight Ball Deluxe play field from you, since I missed the run on them. Price-gouging hoarders want $1200+ for one now. This should put them out of business.
** WAVE TWO ** Just released on the site. Next batch of legacy plastics and backglasses brought back from the dead:
All of this wave was prompted by suggestions/requests of Pinsiders in this and the other thread, BTW.
Quoted from KevinCPR:** WAVE TWO ** Just released on the site. Next batch of legacy plastics and backglasses brought back from the dead:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cpr-floodgates-open-plastics-amp-glasses-releases/page/3#post-4484246
All of this wave was prompted by suggestions/requests of Pinsiders in this and the other thread, BTW.
T2 mirrored backglass. Is that possible to do with the new technology?
Quoted from KevinCPR:All of this wave was prompted by suggestions/requests of Pinsiders in this and the other thread, BTW.
What are the chances of a Black Knight backglass coming from CPR...?
This is super exciting! Where are you guys located? Do you offer tours of the shop? I would like to hug your new printing press. 
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/announce-cpr-begins-its-new-business-model/page/5?hl=mrwol64 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Torrance, CA
Budapest
Melbourne
Laval, QC
Worksop
