Quoted from calvin12:I'll likely have a set of one or the other on Space Shuttle or White Water
GravitaR you better play it first before they break.
(Topic ID: 64568)
Oviedo, FL
Quoted from PPS:Anyone that had any breakage issue, just email me direct and we will take care of, maybe also some bonus to help alleviate any pain and suffering!
Good luck getting him to refund or "alleviate any pain". I asked politely for a refund 3 times. He just replies with childish and almost unintelligable rantings. I think he's lost it. Poster boy for damage control gone awry.
Quoted from DrJoe:Saturn Rings,
You bashed my product. "Superballbands that are 72 durometer..anyone can do that"?? I'm just keeping the facts in check.
For the record for most folks that aren't well-versed in polyurethane chemistry....
With flipper rubber, the resilience, or rebound of the material is basically inversely linear with durometer (to a degree). The harder the rubber, the lower the rebound. Therefore the 45 shore "A" flipper rubber that is usually colored red in this industry has a higher rebound (is bouncier) than the 65 shore "A" black rubber that is common on flipper rubbers. So soft rubber give more bounce. But, it also gives shorter life as it is less tear-resistant and abrasion-resistant. Black rubbers last longer, but are less bouncy. This has forever been the trade-off in flipper rubber.
Polyurethanes can behave completely different than rubber. The durometer (hardness) actually isn't very important. The resilience of the material and the tear strength are key in this application. Now, I can provide 3 different urethane rings, all in the same durometer, that all look the same, and they can have very different rebound properties. In other words, I can make a soft urethane that is dead and a hard urethane that is bouncy, or vice versa. Durometer and resilience (rebound) are independent of one another in urethane chemistry. Why offer three durometers then?
When I decided to make polyurethane flipper rings last year, I decided they must behave like red 45 "A" rubber in play. When a saucer kicks a ball out, measure the bounce off a red rubber flipper and a black rubber and you'll see the difference. But, the trouble is, it's hard to make a high-rebound cast polyurethane that has good tear strength. I think we've seen real-world examples of this in the last few days.
I can make a flipper ring that will last forever but that won't do any good if it plays dead. So my challenge was to provide the best of both worlds...toughness that exceeds black rubber and the play of red rubber. After many, many iterations of proprietary formulations, we hit on a winner. I tested it, tweaked it, tested it, tweaked it, etc...Finally I got the right material.
The material I settled in on happens to be 63 shore "A" durometer. More important though is the resilience, in a laboratory ASTM-standard test, is 63%. This means that my Super-Bands return 63% of the energy in rebound. Drop a ball from 10" high and it will rebound 6.3". Red rubber varies from 60 - 63% rebound depending on the manufacturer. Black rubber has a 50 - 52% rebound which gives it a deader feel. The durometer I chose helps reduce the tacky feel you can get with softer urethanes as well.
I'm just trying to keep the facts straight as two product were introduced almost simultaneously and there seems to be some confusion out there, especially as it relates to durometer.
I wish you good luck Saturn Rings, just please keep the facts straight if you are going to reference my product.
Thanks for reading everyone,
Joe
Thanks, this is interesting. I just installed your blue superbands on my Avengers, and my thought was that they play more like black in terms of hardness and rebound, while retaining a tackyness closer to red rubber. They are very interesting to be sure. They feel really good, but they take getting used to. They feel soft but they play alot deader than the (fairly new) red rubber I removed. It doesn't really feel like pinball as I've played it before. First thing my daughter said was "wow I love these! It makes the shots easier." Not sure I agree with that, but they are pretty cool. I'm a straight cold purist about a lot of things, and I think I like these.
I have Saturn Rings on order and am looking forward to trying them as well.
Quoted from exflexer:GravitaR you better play it first before they break.
And if that happens I'll just walk to the other room and let them know.
Quoted from alveolus:My initial impression was that the rings made my flippers seem weaker. Can anyone verify this, or was it just my imagination?
Playing on a Pinbot last week, this is exactly what it felt like. (the ones we were playing were the IFPA maroon ones)
Quoted from alveolus:My initial impression was that the rings made my flippers seem weaker. Can anyone verify this, or was it just my imagination?
Yep. Feels more like playing air hockey with flipper bats with the ball sliding rather than the ball just "snapping off the flipper" action. Especially backhands.
Quoted from alveolus:My initial impression was that the rings made my flippers seem weaker. Can anyone verify this, or was it just my imagination?
Which number?
#2 makes my flippers feel stronger, not weaker.
Quoted from calvin12:exflexer said:
GravitaR you better play it first before they break.
And if that happens I'll just walk to the other room and let them know.
Either that or let Calvin12 know. Works for me.
I will be hosting our pinball league night soon.
If either Saturn Rings, or Superbands would like to send me samples for heads up testing, I would be willing to take pictures and document a comparison (left sling company A/ right sling company B).
Private message me if you are interested, and if you would like to see this comparison for wear.
Pictures will be provided.
Blue samples would be preferred.
I'm accepting donations for retirement. Depending on amounts florida or socal will be considered. cash is preferred.
Quoted from RobT:Which number?
#2 makes my flippers feel stronger, not weaker.
#1
I will try the #2s next.
1 week later
Interesting that the IFPA says they want the players to have maximum control. I thought I read many tournament players saying that red was better because it is more challenging to control the ball and thus makes for better competition.
If what IFPA says is true and that all colors of rubber should be equal and the rubber that gives the player the best and easiest control is desired then Superbands is the a great choice.
Quoted from DCFAN:If what IFPA says is true and that all colors of rubber should be equal and the rubber that gives the player the best and easiest control is desired then Superbands is the a great choice.
That's the last thing I want in a tournament. Harder to control the better IMO
Quoted from DCFAN:Interesting that the IFPA says they want the players to have maximum control. I thought I read many tournament players saying that red was better because it is more challenging to control the ball and thus makes for better competition.
If what IFPA says is true and that all colors of rubber should be equal and the rubber that gives the player the best and easiest control is desired then Superbands is the a great choice.
We never said we want to give players maximum control. It is up to the tournament director to determine whether they want flipper rubber choice to be made to increase/decrease game difficulty. Depending on the tournament format, there are definitely reasons to make games more/less controllable.
The only thing we've ever said was that the specific maroon Saturn rubbers that we endorse offered maximum control for players, and most importantly to us was that it's in a custom color so players stepping up to a game for the first time can know what to expect if these rubbers are on that machine.
When I walk up to a game with Red rubbers right now, I don't know if it's PBL red rubber, Happ rubber, Wico rubber, Saturn #1 rubber, Saturn #2, Saturn #3 or Super Band Red. Clearing up some of this confusion for players with a custom color was at the top of the list for our endorsement of this product.
As one of our biggest sponsors PPS is offering a great deal for IFPA endorsed organizers to give the Saturn rubber a try. By no means do we enforce the use of any particular rubber, the same way we don't enforce any particular type of tournament format or machines used for IFPA endorsement.
Josh
Quoted from ifpapinball:We never said we want to give players maximum control. It is up to the tournament director to determine whether they want flipper rubber choice to be made to increase/decrease game difficulty. Depending on the tournament format, there are definitely reasons to make games more/less controllable.
The only thing we've ever said was that the specific maroon Saturn rubbers that we endorse offered maximum control for players, and most importantly to us was that it's in a custom color so players stepping up to a game for the first time can know what to expect if these rubbers are on that machine.
When I walk up to a game with Red rubbers right now, I don't know if it's PBL red rubber, Happ rubber, Wico rubber, Saturn #1 rubber, Saturn #2, Saturn #3 or Super Band Red. Clearing up some of this confusion for players with a custom color was at the top of the list for our endorsement of this product.
As one of our biggest sponsors PPS is offering a great deal for IFPA endorsed organizers to give the Saturn rubber a try. By no means do we enforce the use of any particular rubber, the same way we don't enforce any particular type of tournament format or machines used for IFPA endorsement.
Josh
This is on your website:
"For tournament play, it was important for the IFPA to find a flipper rubber solution that will allow players maximum control and feel, to be able to perform all the flipper skills needed to play at their best."
http://www.ifpapinball.com/saturn-pinball-rubber-rings-discount-for-ifpa-tournament-organizers
Yes, it was important to us to find "A" flipper rubber solution for maximum control and feel.
This by no means is "THE" flipper rubber solution that all tournament directors should use.
Like I just mentioned, we expect tournament directors to use flipper rubber choice as a way of setting the difficulty level for a machine. For certain tournaments where we want to get players through a qualifying line over and over again, maximum control probably isn't the best option for that organizer.
What is important to us is that if players walk up to a machine with these IFPA endorsed maroon flipper rubbers, they can expect that particular machine to play with maximum control and feel, to be able to perform all the flipper skills needed to play at their best.
Josh
Unless they walk up to the machine and go 
because the maroon rings are sitting there snapped and lying on the playfield.
There's been utter official radio silence in this thread about the crap longevity of these rings, it basically makes me think I shouldn't bother to order them again. Not paying extra for something that breaks after a few weeks of light home use. In the middle of the night mind you, not even during game play.
Which sucks, I like how they feel, love the colors, was excited to see matching playfield rings, but now ...
Quoted from Aurich:Unless they walk up to the machine and go because the maroon rings are sitting there snapped and lying on the playfield.
There's been utter official radio silence in this thread about the crap longevity of these rings, it basically makes me think I shouldn't bother to order them again. Not paying extra for something that breaks after a few weeks of light home use. In the middle of the night mind you, not even during game play.
Which sucks, I like how they feel, love the colors, was excited to see matching playfield rings, but now ...
I am excited about the colored rings that Superbands will be selling. Hopefully they will be a great option to brighten up games for people that already enjoy the colored Cliffy post sleeves.
Quoted from Aurich:Unless they walk up to the machine and go because the maroon rings are sitting there snapped and lying on the playfield.
I've had two of the maroon rubbers on 3 different games, including a league game that got hammered, and both are fine.
Quoted from Aurich:There's been utter official radio silence in this thread about the crap longevity of these rings...
Wrong thread.
Quoted from PPS:All ... we had some issues with some of the rings coming out of the mold to quickly and creating a breaking point - probably in a rush to replenish on a few different batches ... not good, but more of a production QA thing than anything about the fundamentals of the rings themselves. Anyways for all but the early couple of days there may be some issues and that is why. And as always if there is an issue, we will replace them. We are testing them on every order now to minimize any issue.
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/review-saturn%E2%84%A2-pinball-rings/page/3
Quoted from phishrace:I've had two of the maroon rubbers on 3 different games, including a league game that got hammered, and both are fine.
I've got them on my Shadow and they're fine. I had them on my Scared Stiff, one broke in the middle of the night or something, was like that when I walked up. It doesn't really fill me with confidence in the product.
Quoted from phishrace:All ... we had some issues with some of the rings coming out of the mold to quickly and creating a breaking point - probably in a rush to replenish on a few different batches ... not good, but more of a production QA thing than anything about the fundamentals of the rings themselves. Anyways for all but the early couple of days there may be some issues and that is why. And as always if there is an issue, we will replace them. We are testing them on every order now to minimize any issue.
These are just words - not evidence or fact. I have not been given any replacements/refunds. Ask him how he plans on testing them. I did. He never answered the question. Guess why.
Yeah what happened? Communication just up and died. Is the product just boned and no one wants to admit it?
Quoted from PPS:All ... we had some issues with some of the rings coming out of the mold to quickly and creating a breaking point - probably in a rush to replenish on a few different batches
Just dont rush the MMr
they had the same problem with the colored flipper bats they introduced at expo a few years ago.
the first ones were molded without "ribs" to bite into the plastic so the plastic would turn on the shaft causing the flipper to not be aligned.
I posted on RGP about it and got a nasty email saying I need to only talk to him about it and not make it a public problem. WTF? I was just asking if anyone else was having the same issues.
it's probably true that super bands were hurried to market and it remains to be seen if it was a "removing from the molds early" problem or a bigger problem.
he just wants problems to not be spoken of in public.
You better not have a complaint about your MMR's when you get them and if you do, by all means don't compare notes with other pinsiders.
Quoted from dgoett:it's probably true that super bands were hurried to market
I think you mean Saturn rings
To be fair(disclaimer I have not owned Saturn rings) one of my super bands also had a nick in it after 1 night of heavy play. I like the control polyurethane gives, all parties should just keep upping their game! It's new to the hobby, bound to be growing pains.
Quoted from vid1900:Every condom is tested both by inflating with air, AND by seeing if high voltage will arc through it.
Just as well. You should see how many volts shoot out the end of my penis.
rd.
2 months later
Quoted from PW79:HOT PINK needed
Any plans to make a pink fluorescent?
At Modern Pinball NYC we have used Superbands since the first week.
The machines are played 7 days a week almost constantly and as of yet there havent been any problems or wear to be noted.
MPNYC is really the best test bed for pinball stuff as the machines are played hard and for long periods.
If it lasts here it will last anywhere.
We hold Tournaments and the staff are all top ranked tournament players so we do know a thing or to about flipper feel and control.
No we are not endorsed or supplied by Superbands.
1 year later
They are still breaking on me! (and after a few plays less than 2 days)
https://instagram.com/p/35njafPy63/
They still sell them too!
http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?
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