(Topic ID: 90903)

ANN: MMR assembly to be done by Stern Pinball for PPS/Chicago Gaming!


By PPS

5 years ago



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There are 539 posts in this topic. You are on page 9 of 11.
#401 5 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

The other question was whether or not Stern would be making the MMR harnesses? Seems like a good idea if they're doing the assembly, it won't be much different than running one of their own games, if at all.

it *shouldn't* be much different than stern making their own game, they will be assembling it just like they do for their own games. The difference is stern didn't design it, stern is not making the choices on suppliers, stern is not specing the design of any of the parts. It is not a stern game. based on your logic stern never made any games and they should all be referred to as Julio and Maria Trons, since they "built the game"

#402 5 years ago

8 page summary:
This is good news.

Congrats!

#403 5 years ago

I think this is great news...

Most of us, who are on board for the LE, interpret this as meaning we'll be seeing our machines much sooner than we had originally thought.

Rick, how soon will we all of know "our place in line"?

A lot of people, including myself, would like to have as much advanced notice as possible. Coming up with the $7000 balance on short notice may cause some people to bail.

When will the deposits become "non-refundable"?

#404 5 years ago

Guessing the trouble-shooting/warranty on these will be through 1-800-KICKERS?

#405 5 years ago
Quoted from NM:

Guessing the trouble-shooting/warranty on these be through 1-800-KICKERS?

You must have missed Rick's post on the previous page :

"Stern is the assembler ... I'm not sure how much more clear we can make this ... you will call MMR support which will route to the right person as well as escalate. Lloyd is one of those people, as is Chicago gaming ... but the support procedures will address all of that ...

rick"

LTG : )

#406 5 years ago
Quoted from NM:

Guessing the trouble-shooting/warranty on these be through 1-800-KICKERS?

No, it won't.

When your iphone breaks do you call Foxcon or do you call Apple?

#407 5 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

You must have missed Rick's post on the previous page :
"Stern is the assembler ... I'm not sure how much more clear we can make this ... you will call MMR support which will route to the right person as well as escalate. Lloyd is one of those people, as is Chicago gaming ... but the support procedures will address all of that ...
rick"
LTG : )

I did; just skimmed the 9-page thread and was hoping for the Cliff Notes.

Thanks for the answer Lloyd.

#408 5 years ago

OK, now everyone is hopefully on board. ( those who wish to be anyway). Rick , you seem to have proven time and time again that this is on like donkey kong.

Q.1. When do you need the balance .
Q.2. When do I finally get to say to my friends ,do you want to come play my MMR!

#409 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

No, it won't.
When your iphone breaks do you call Foxcon or do you call Apple?

Usually the nearest college kid who will fix it for $60

#410 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

When your iphone breaks do you call Foxcon or do you call Apple?

Not sure; I don't own an iPhone.

#411 5 years ago
Quoted from NM:

Guessing the trouble-shooting/warranty on these will be through 1-800-KICKERS?

hDD629F33.jpg

#412 5 years ago

You're mistaken.

I didn't read the entire thread--haven't been reading or posting on the forums much lately at all.

I didn't think reiterating the answer 9 pages into a mega thread for the benefit of others would be a bad thing.

I was hoping someone would be gracious enough to get me up to speed.

Lloyd can always be counted on in that regard.

Anyway back to pinball: great announcement for both companies regarding assembly.

Pencil me in for a CCCr if it becomes a reality one day.

#413 5 years ago
Quoted from burtcam:

Maybe they should repo every (Williams / Bally) title that they think they can sell 1000 off ..

I don't think there are that many pins out in the wild that they can legally repossess for non-payment at this point so I don't see how this is at all a viable business model.

#414 5 years ago

What I've been noticing are the people who have an original MM,obviously are against the new one because they have lost a lot of value on there game,and will lose even more when this game is released and now that a major pin manufactor is helping assemble with better parts and more feature the price of an original will drop even more, I understand that. But the people who don't have any A-list games and don't have any money to purchase a new and improved MM why do they have to try to sway people not to buy this? I just don't get it?

#415 5 years ago

Haters are gonna hate... and the Internet is full of haters ... that simple.

#416 5 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

Haters are gonna hate... and the Internet is full of haters ... that simple.

You have a good point there!

-10
#417 5 years ago
Quoted from Hondanut:

What I've been noticing are the people who have an original MM,obviously are against the new one because they have lost a lot of value on there game,and will lose even more when this game is released and now that a major pin manufactor is helping assemble with better parts and more feature the price of an original will drop even more, I understand that. But the people who don't have any A-list games and don't have any money to purchase a new and improved MM why do they have to try to sway people not to buy this? I just don't get it?

I disagree with this one. I think the MM made by Stern will be enough different than the MM made by WMS that the WMS one will eventually be worth more. Especially a high end restoration by a big name like HEP or Keller or McCune or Kelley. Maybe something like Stern MM +$2,000 = WMS MM. Not saying that will be the formula, just that there might be one down the road. All depends on perceived value and what we pinheads are willing to shell out. But I also think WMS MM has already dropped all it is going to drop.

#418 5 years ago

There's no such thing as a stern MM.

-1
#419 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

I disagree with this one. I think the MM made by Stern will be enough different than the MM made by WMS that the WMS one will eventually be worth more. Especially a high end restoration by a big name like HEP or Keller or McCune or Kelley. Maybe something like Stern MM +$2,000 = WMS MM. Not saying that will be the formula, just that there might be one down the road. All depends on perceived value and what we pinheads are willing to shell out. But I also think WMS MM has already dropped all it is going to drop.

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10
#420 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

I disagree with this one. I think the MM made by Stern will be enough different than the MM made by WMS that the WMS one will eventually be worth more. Especially a high end restoration by a big name like HEP or Keller or McCune or Kelley. Maybe something like Stern MM +$2,000 = WMS MM. Not saying that will be the formula, just that there might be one down the road. All depends on perceived value and what we pinheads are willing to shell out. But I also think WMS MM has already dropped all it is going to drop.

Well guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I know traditionalists will say this sort of thing and I can understand that but there is a flip side to that coin.

Some of us will actually prefer a Remake that has upgrades that include color capable LCD screens, shaker integration through driver board based on various outputs, superior factory sound due to them using uncompressed audio, updated (affordable to replaceable) hardware, native LED support which included three in each insert to cover any rogue LEDs which are all rated at 50K hours, updatability (for things like color LCD integration), adjustable coil/flipper strength, opportunity for technical support direct from manufacturer, trim options, and the machine not being used for 20 plus years but being brand spanking new. To name a few things. I know it's just like my opinion man but I would not pay $8K plus for a 20 year old machine but would for a new one. To each their own as always.

#421 5 years ago

Dude, it's like anything collectible. Eventually there are collectors who prefer the original. Look at , well, Shelby Mustang for instance. Or Arcades. There are guys who prefer the original Defender cab to any sort of "multi game" new fangled things. Originals > Remakes - usually. BBB is a good example. BBB by Capcom > BBB by IP > BBB by PPS made by Stern. On the other hand I LOVE the idea of getting a new MM . I just don't think long term it will fetch the same $$ as a WMS MM . All just my opinion of course for the sensitive pinheads.

#422 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Dude, it's like anything collectible. Eventually there are collectors who prefer the original. Look at , well, Shelby Mustang for instance. Or Arcades. There are guys who prefer the original Defender cab to any sort of "multi game" new fangled things. Originals > Remakes. BBB is a good example. BBB by Capcom > BBB by IP > BBB by PPS made by Stern. On the other hand I LOVE the idea of getting a new MM . I just don't think long term it will fetch the same $$ as a WMS MM .

This is sound logic.

Chris

#423 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Dude, it's like anything collectible. Eventually there are collectors who prefer the original. Look at , well, Shelby Mustang for instance. Or Arcades. There are guys who prefer the original Defender cab to any sort of "multi game" new fangled things. Originals > Remakes - usually. BBB is a good example. BBB by Capcom > BBB by IP > BBB by PPS made by Stern. On the other hand I LOVE the idea of getting a new MM . I just don't think long term it will fetch the same $$ as a WMS MM . All just my opinion of course for the sensitive pinheads.

Pinball has been its own little beast in that regards for many years.

A true "original" HOU MM is a rare beast.

An "orginal" MM with a replaced playfield, ramps, backlight tub, translight, cab decals etc, etc... is not that original any more. But this "not original" was preferred to an original routed game with usual wear and tear. This preference was shown in the higher prices these sold for, and in the active restoration business itself.

Given that pinball games have a cannon ball rocketing around the playfield at what appears to be a high velocity and they are meant to be played this way makes me think comparisions to many other "put it away sealed in the package" sort of hobbies is off.

#424 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

But I also think WMS MM has already dropped all it is going to drop.

I think this is 100% dependent on what the finished product MMR machine turns out to be. If it ends up being a super reliable/glitch free game that plays just as good or better than an original MM than I think the value of the originals will go down even further because of the added MMR improvements such as the sound, lighting, shaker support, etc. Who would pay more for a routed MM in need of some TLC when they can get a brand new one that's perfect, more reliable, and has a warranty and more features.

On the contrary, if MMR comes out and has a lot of hardware/software issues and the system proves to be less reliable than the original MM than I think MM prices will go up from where they are today because people won't want to purchase a seemingly inferior product. It really all comes down to the final product.

#425 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Dude, it's like anything collectible. Eventually there are collectors who prefer the original. Look at , well, Shelby Mustang for instance. Or Arcades. There are guys who prefer the original Defender cab to any sort of "multi game" new fangled things. Originals > Remakes - usually. BBB is a good example. BBB by Capcom > BBB by IP > BBB by PPS made by Stern. On the other hand I LOVE the idea of getting a new MM . I just don't think long term it will fetch the same $$ as a WMS MM .

But you're assuming all buyers are "collectors" or preoccupied with "collectibility." It doesnt seem like the MMr is all that apealing for folks that are trying to build some exclusive "collection."

Seems pretty simple:
MMr is catering to the folks that are PLAYERS first, collectors second. I suspect they are making their buying decision based on a couple simple criteria:
1. Will it play like the original
2. Is it built as well (and/or better) than the original
3. Is it worth the asking price...TODAY.

Future resale price is likely far down the list of worries. Similar to someone who buys a premium (vs LE) NIB Stern or WoZ....

#426 5 years ago

Speculators and collectors will always be more interested in the originals, players not so much.

#427 5 years ago

Made does not equal assembled

Pretty easy concept

#428 5 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

Speculators and collectors will always be more interested in the originals, players not so much.

You are totally wrong,I myself am a collector and that's why I'm in on purchasing the new and improved MM, as for all the talk about the original value decreasing, of corse it already has the day of the announcement by PPS last OCT. people started dumping there originals. And they will when it finally gets out in public, in bars and collectors basements.When collectors compared to there old junky routed originals, the price of MMR will surpass the original, now as for the restored ones that's a whole different situation?
It's simple supply and demand when the supply increases and the demand for the old product decreases the bubble burst's! I feel sorry for all the people who payed huge sums of mine for an original and try to re-sell it and discover that the price and demand has dropped so much.

#429 5 years ago
Quoted from Hondanut:

You are totally wrong,I myself am a collector and that's why I'm in on purchasing the new and improved MM, as for all the talk about the original value decreasing, of corse it already has the day of the announcement by PPS last OCT. people started dumping there originals. And they will when it finally gets out in public, in bars and collectors basements.When collectors compared to there old junky routed originals, the price of MMR will surpass the original, now as for the restored ones that's a whole different situation?
It's simple supply and demand when the supply increases and the demand for the old product decreases the bubble burst's! I feel sorry for all the people who payed huge sums of mine for an original and try to re-sell it and discover that the price and demand has dropped so much.

I think you may be wrong. I am a collector and I prefer originals. Just can't afford them usually. MM is down to what now, $6k or so? I don't see it going much lower than $2k less than a NIB one. At that price it is getting reasonable to own both. I don't like MM THAT much though. Maybe on AFM I will be able to have both (assuming that one is next) . And same on AFM for that matter - I don't see the AFMs dropping much below $2k less than a new one, and they are already $6k or less now.

-1
#430 5 years ago
Quoted from Hondanut:

When collectors compared to there old junky routed originals, the price of MMR will surpass the original, now as for the restored ones that's a whole different situation?.

Compare apples to apples. All things being equal an MM will be worth more than an MMr to just about everyone. How is that even a question?

#431 5 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

Some of us will actually prefer a Remake that has upgrades that include color capable LCD screens, shaker integration through driver board based on various outputs, superior factory sound due to them using uncompressed audio, updated (affordable to replaceable) hardware, native LED support which included three in each insert to cover any rogue LEDs which are all rated at 50K hours, updatability (for things like color LCD integration), opportunity for technical support direct from manufacturer, trim options, and the machine not being used for 20 plus years but being brand spanking new. To name a few things. I know it's just like my opinion man but I would not pay $8K plus for a 20 year old machine but would for a new one. To each their own as always.

There is an assumption on the part of the supporters/investors in this project that the game will automatically be as functional/dependable/playable as the outdated model that it is based on. And built on that they will also be getting your aforementioned lists of upgrades and enhancements.

But, just in the off chance that the new games exhibit some flaw that wasn't seen in the WMS version, I think it's premature to declare the remakes either better (or worse) than the original game. I could rattle off my own list of technical concerns on the remakes but I know I would get my hand slapped for doing so. Until the games get into owners hands (or at least games make it to a show and are plugged into a good wall outlet) it's way early to make any assumptions on their awesomeness...

#432 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

MM is down to what now, $6k or so? I don't see the AFMs dropping much below $2k less than a new one, and they are already $6k or less now

Where?!?

Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg

-2
#433 5 years ago

Oh yeah noodle this one - if PPS has Stern make BBB , what will happen to the value of the Capcom BBB ? Nothing, nada, zero, zip. They will still be $25,000 - $40,000. Why is that different than the current situation? Well they only made less than 12 of them and maybe 8 are left. Remaking it will not affect their value at all IMHO. The 8 guys that have one of those originals paid crazy money for it and to get it out of their hands requires a special collector with that same kind of cash.

#434 5 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Compare apples to apples. All things being equal an MM will be worth more than an MMr to just about everyone. How is that even a question?

I don't see why. MMR seems like the better game, if the new system lives up to its promise.

#435 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

There is an assumption on the part of the supporters/investors in this project that the game will automatically be as functional/dependable/playable as the outdated model that it is based on. And built on that they will also be getting your aforementioned lists of upgrades and enhancements.
But, just in the off chance that the new games exhibit some flaw that wasn't seen in the WMS version, I think it's premature to declare the remakes either better (or worse) than the original game. I could rattle off my own list of technical concerns on the remakes but I know I would get my hand slapped for doing so. Until the games get into owners hands (or at least games make it to a show and are plugged into a good wall outlet) it's way early to make any assumptions on their awesomeness...

Totally fair. MMR isn't out yet. Assuming it is as reliable as and plays as well as the original (huge assumptions, yes!) I don't see any reason for the original to be worth more, given the added features of the new version.

#436 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

I don't see why. MMR seems like the better game, if the new system lives up to its promise.

Seriously?

This argument has been beaten to death. If it's apples to apples it can't be a better game. Not talking about innards. I'm talking about exact same condition. You would still choose an MMr?

Does not compute, does not compute...

#437 5 years ago

I mean the whole reason I jumped on MMr before Rick was even done speaking was...MM FOR $8,000!!! Crazy cheap! Now that the dust has settled will we all like the new stuff? Will it be as easy to mod? Surely we ALL know the answer to that... some guys here love new, some guys love old, it is pinball after all. (oh where is my meme skill)

Personally - I have never played a pinball I don't like. MM is awesome, not my favorite and AFM is better, but it's the only Monty Python pin so it's a MUST have imho for a collector, or at least me. Being able to buy one and have it nice and shiny for $8,000 is, well, a Godsend for us. Before this, MM was a major investment, a big decision. "I could have all these pins instead of spending 15k, or more to have a killer restoration".

And once again, once the dust has settled even more, I think we will find reasons to still like the WMS version. I for one think you can have WMS MM valued at well more than MMr and everything in PPS model still works. Time will tell and while I do not have any skin in the game for MMr except having one on order, for AFM I definitely have skin in there. My McCune high end restore should be here within a couple weeks.

edit: I will be ordering an AFMr if it is next. Having both , right next to each other, even if only for a few months would be too cool

#438 5 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Seriously?
This argument has been beaten to death. If it's apples to apples it can't be a better game.

Well, I'm kind of confused on what you consider apples to apples here. Are you talking about a high-end restoration full of reproduction parts, or some mythical non-existent mint condition original game that fell through a time tunnel from 1997? Either way it doesn't matter ... "Better game" would still go to MMR due to better sound and lighting. But I think you're talking desirability, which I guess would depend on the person. It seems kinda like apples to oranges no matter how you slice it to me.

#439 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

Well, I'm kind of confused on what you consider apples to apples here. Are you talking about a high-end restoration full of reproduction parts, or some mythical non-existent mint condition original game that fell through a time tunnel from 1997? Either way it doesn't matter ... "Better game" would still go to MMR due to better sound and lighting. But I think you're talking desirability, which I guess would depend on the person. It seems kinda like apples to oranges no matter how you slice it to me.

Valid points. I am saying if you have an original (meaning B/W, not necessarily all original parts) and an MMr. Same condition, same LED's, etc. etc. people will choose the MM 9/10 times.

I also agree that more times than not you will end up with an apples to oranges comparison.

Now if someone can point me to the AFM's and MM's for $6K I'd appreciate it, thanks!!!!!

#440 5 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Seriously?
This argument has been beaten to death. If it's apples to apples it can't be a better game. Not talking about innards. I'm talking about exact same condition. You would still choose an MMr?
Does not compute, does not compute...

Why not? I'd take the MMr brand new over a MM, brand new. If you offered me a MM, NIB, for $8k? Sure, I'll take it, flip it without opening it to someone who cares, and buy a MMr plus some other games with the profits.

Assuming MMr doesn't have some fatal flaw, I haven't seen one in person. But I don't care about it being original. Don't care. Not at all. You could enjoy your history and empty wallet after paying whatever ridiculous price a NIB MM would command, and I'd enjoy the cash and upgraded sound etc.

I love pinball, I love the Williams game era, but I'm not in love with aged plywood. The vision of Brian Eddy and Lyman is what attracts me, in whichever is the nicer package.

#441 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

or some mythical non-existent mint condition original game that fell through a time tunnel from 1997?

Hmm seems i must have a myth in my house then.

#442 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Why not? I'd take the MMr brand new over a MM, brand new. If you offered me a MM, NIB, for $8k? Sure, I'll take it, flip it without opening it to someone who cares, and buy a MMr plus some other games with the profits.
Assuming MMr doesn't have some fatal flaw, I haven't seen one in person. But I don't care about it being original. Don't care. Not at all. You could enjoy your history and empty wallet after paying whatever ridiculous price a NIB MM would command, and I'd enjoy the cash and upgraded sound etc.
I love pinball, I love the Williams game era, but I'm not in love with aged plywood. The vision of Brian Eddy and Lyman is what attracts me, in whichever is the nicer package.

I am a fan of MMr, have said a few times and I'll hopefully be in the market for either MM or MMr sometime.

If I found 2 and they were identical in every way cosmetically and price give or take a few bucks, I'm going with the original. That has been my point all along.

#443 5 years ago

Great news for all involved in making and buying it.
I look forward to playing it!

#444 5 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

A true "original" HOU MM is a rare beast.
An "orginal" MM with a replaced playfield, ramps, backlight tub, translight, cab decals etc, etc... is not that original any more. But this "not original" was preferred to an original routed game with usual wear and tear. This preference was shown in the higher prices these sold for, and in the active restoration business itself.

The thing that stays different between the MMR and an original run MM (restored or not) is the electronics. Original run MM is one boardset and wiring rig, MMR is a completely different beast. Not that it has to be a bad thing, the new system may be just fine and play just fine (that is their goal after all). But for people looking for an 'original' I think it's the 'original' design/hardware that really matters.

#445 5 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

If I found 2 and they were identical in every way cosmetically and price give or take a few bucks, I'm going with the original. That has been my point all along.

Obviously everyone would pick a MM in NIB or better condition over a MMR because it will be way more rare and collectible.

A better question would be: What would a typical routed MM with some dings and scrapes on the cabinet, a switch error or two, slight playfield wear and maybe a raised insert or two, maybe a broken plastic and less than perfect ramps, flippers and pops could use a rebuild, etc. be worth if a brand new MMR is $8K and probably even less on the HUO secondary market? I think these are the games that will take the biggest hit.

#446 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

Either way it doesn't matter ... "Better game" would still go to MMR due to better sound and lighting.

Again, too early to say which is better. Just one major flaw (or worse, a succession of them) and NOBODY will remember that their game had better lighting, or that they got to choose the finish on the cabinet trim. They will just be complaining that it won't make a ramp shot, or that something that is newly designed for the game is not holding up, etc, etc.

The one thing that is almost a surety, if this thing goes south there will now be 3 companies involved (not even counting parts suppliers) to point fingers at each other.

13
#447 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

Again, too early to say which is better. Just one major flaw (or worse, a succession of them) and NOBODY will remember that their game had better lighting, or that they got to choose the finish on the cabinet trim. They will just be complaining that it won't make a ramp shot, or that something that is newly designed for the game is not holding up, etc, etc.
The one thing that is almost a surety, if this thing goes south there will now be 3 companies involved (not even counting parts suppliers) to point fingers at each other.

the good news here with you is you will always be able to find something wrong with anything and everything (especially having no stake in the game which which makes it a bit obsessive), so you will never run out of material for pinside ... lol

#448 5 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Compare apples to apples. All things being equal an MM will be worth more than an MMr to just about everyone. How is that even a question?

I consider a professionally restored MM being new. That one will cost me $12-$15k? A NIB MMr costs me $8k. That is also new. To me, that's comparing apples to apples.

I will take the NIB MMr and save $4k to $7k. I'm OK with not being considered a 'collector'.

#449 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Obviously everyone would pick a MM in NIB or better condition over a MMR because it will be way more rare and collectible.
A better question would be: What would a typical routed MM with some dings and scrapes on the cabinet, a switch error or two, slight playfield wear and maybe a raised insert or two, maybe a broken plastic and less than perfect ramps, flippers and pops could use a rebuild, etc. be worth if a brand new MMR is $8K and probably even less on the HUO secondary market? I think these are the games that will take the biggest hit.

Not everyone. MMr has improved clear, improved sound, capacity for increasing/decreasing flipper/coil strength.
I don't know, seems like MMr for someone planning on playing the game for years to come would go with the newer version.

We are not all collectors and pinball is thriving right now because of the infusion of new players, not collectors.

PPS is making speculators and collectors the dinosaurs of the hobby.

#450 5 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

Not everyone. MMr has improved clear, improved sound, capacity for increasing/decreasing flipper/coil strength.
I don't know, seems like MMr for someone planning on playing the game for years to come would go with the newer version.
We are not all collectors and pinball is thriving right now because of the infusion of new players, not collectors.
PPS is making speculators and collectors the dinosaurs of the hobby.

edited version:
Not everyone. MMr has different clear, different sound, capacity for increasing/decreasing flipper/coil strength (which was ever needed in the original).
I don't know, seems like MMr for someone planning on playing the game for years to come might go with the newer version.
We are not all collectors and pinball is thriving right now because of the infusion of new players, not collectors.
PPS is not making speculators and collectors the dinosaurs of the hobby.

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