Given that the rest of your posts in this thread are dubious (at best), I'm not sure about this one either. Unless you ordered from another distributor, my completed order form was the first handed to Rick.

Your "logic" at how MMR is now somehow a Stern game is nothing less than mind-blowing...

I suspect there are two reasons for this as I've stated before:
1) Jack/JJP is unable to keep the line running due to piss poor management
2) They don't have the cash to prime the line.

I suspect they are living month-2-month... picking and choosing exactly what to buy.
It's just sad really. Cause they have potential... but they don't seem to have the expertise to make it right.

I see this is a good thing. Gets things out the door, regardless of the manufacturer.

Not to play the car card, but aren't there auto plants that are utilized by 2 car companies? Same plant, different vehicles(all badge engineering aside).

Car card 2: Is CGC a "coachbuilder" in a way?

Are you just pretending to have no clue, or in fact you have no clue at all?

With your logic I "made" all the furniture I bought from IKEA? Uh no I was provided parts by IKEA and then I assembled these parts. They are still IKEA parts, but I assembled them..... It does not say "Made by Decat" because I had nothing to do with its design, parts, or concept, I just followed a diagram, and Stern has the best most experienced people when it comes to assembling a pinball machine. Now if all of a sudden they are using Stern flipper components and parts from Stern patents, that would be another thing completely, but they are not. Experienced Stern employees will be following the build sheets and using the parts for MMr. Not made by Stern at all. Assembled by Stern employees.

New Medieval Madness made at Stern....Priceless

Love the Stern's and i C'ant wait to get mine

I ordered before the forms were handed out.

Edit - you can call jack Guarnieri and ask him yourself, that way you don't have to take the word of an American pinhead.

Edit again - I was sitting with Marc and bakushan with fatrains whole crew right behind me. I got up while rick was still speaking and found jack in the corner. Very dubious , I agree. But that's how it went down.

lol, I know. It's the same people doing it too. Over and over again for months on end. Maybe they should go play the pins they actually own instead of trolling about one they have no interest in buying.

JJP started from nothing (no parts, no vendors, no platform) and it's unreasonable to think they should be like Stern within 3 years producing 3 games a year. For one a game like WOZ has much more going on in it then any Stern game ever made so of course it's going to take longer to build. There are more toys, more tech and more features in WOZ compared to any Stern game made to date and building a game like that simply takes more parts and time. You have one company making games for 20+ years and another that has been around for 3 and they choose to make a very complex pin for their first game.

JJP is getting better and better with every game they get out the door so hopefully the amount of pins they can produce per week will increase. I agree that things need to go faster and I'm hopeful that the number of machines produced will increase again like we saw last year and a couple months ago. When JJP hasn't had issues with receiving parts we know that they can produce a pretty good number of machines per week.

Also, I'm glad that Stern is making MMR for PPS. Like many have said they have a proven system for making games and appear to be able to take on the extra work. JJP needs to focus on increasing production of their own games, finally get the rest of the WOZ LE's out the door, and have a decent chunk of Hobbit machines out the door by the end of the year.

First laugh today, thank you.

This goes well beyond 4-5 titles. Maybe you could explain to me how much more there is to a high end restoration business then when 90% of your business is in those "A" titles? Take a look at what high end "B" titles fetch. Sure, there is much more if you like to lose money. From a players perspective I agree with your statement. To someone in the high end restore business your statement is clueless.

SO WHAT !!!!! I get so tired of this shit ! Panzer stirs the pot then cries about it . Freak, put a lid on it already .

i mean if you are worried about the state of your business i can't help you. no line of income is guaranteed in perpetuity. that's capitalism. pinball in general seems to be a growing hobby with a lot of exciting stuff on the horizon. someone moved your cheese, but that doesn't mean pinball itself is in trouble.

Hey Chad. Well I for one am starting to see the difference. The price of WMS MM going down actually makes it MORE likely I would send you one. There was no way I was gonna do it at 12k for the base game. If it's like MB and AFM ... well there is the likelihood that collectors will value the originals over the remakes eventually.

It would be great though if Rick would release his intended list. He already said whatever will make money he will remake and at 8k we can "sort of" see what would sell at that price. Roadshow ? probably not. AFM ? probably so.

Makes you wonder with the new Stern deal - they could run small batches if they wanted to. 200 people want RS at $8k ? BAM new RS remake on the way. I suppose now all the titles are on the table.

rommy is just trolling, don't feed him, I already made that mistake.

You're slipping.... you forgot to mention "wide-body" in the soliloquy

How this topic turned into a Stern vs JJP is beyond me.

I've said it MANY times. If they (PPS) think they can do every A title at $8K and get the sales MMr has they are sorely mistaken. And have they ever said that? No. Stop assuming $8K for every remake. Not every title can support that model.

Rick already acknowledged that $8K was just the price he came up with for MMR which seems to be right on the money based on how quickly they sold out. I would assume that he'll price future games based on where he deems price and demand will be met.

Exactly! I think what Rick/PPS did with MMr was genius so pls don't take my posts about this as negative. Just think people need to stop saying BBBrr for $8K, AFMr for $8K, MBr for $8K. We have no idea what is next and what they will retail for.

I thought he just cut and pasted the standard response again. I'm slipping.

Just like your canned WOZ responses?

I seriously doubt that if a title like MB is remade that it will sell for less than $8k. If pins like WOZ and STLE sell for close to that mark, as did MMr, I see no reason that MBr would sell for less.

Don't they need a second game out the door before such an assertion can be made?

I totally agree. I'd like to see $7000-$7500 on MBr, but do concede it would likely be $8K. Beyond that I would be out on any other remakes, including BBBrr and CCCr @$8K....

I appreciate you coming out with this information. But, it will not stop the speculating that goes on in this thread.

I respect that Rick is taking on a whole new journey with this, there were a lot of setup costs to get new infrastructure and development in place etc. Using MM as a stepping stone was a smart move, $8k seemed like a deal to people, and brought in the kind of capital that could make this all a reality.

What people will pay for other potential remakes is up to them (and Rick!). All I can say is that personally anything that's over Stern Premium pricing (a more than fair price point for the BOM and all the design work that doesn't have to be done IMHO) is an auto pass for me.

There was a time when I would have said "let's see Rick actually ship a game before even worrying about it", but frankly with Stern building MMr I'm confident it's going to go well now and we'll be out of speculation land sooner rather than later.

Enjoy getting bombarded with WHERE IS MMR??! questions today at PAGG Rick!

x2

I agree.

Obviously PPS was sailing into uncharted waters with MMr. Given the speed at which it sold out, it's certainly possible the "market price" for this was > $8k!

If MMr turns out as good as it looks, you may also then add on top of that "market price" a potential premium for the PPS "updates" .... Or in other words, the value delta between the old WMS machines and the NIB remakes may shrink to zero, or even reverse....

Compete with Stern at Pro pricing, and my location(s) would swell with B/W classics along side new Sterns.

i can see a time very soon where 8k pins will be really difficult for the manufacturers to sell, regardless on the title. either the builders adjust prices lower to sell more units or have very shallow sales in the future. mustang le might just be the canary in the coal mine...

nothing wrong with companies making as much money as possible but sustainability going forward on the 8k gravy train might be a short lived phenomena.

you may be right about future games moving downward in price, but i don't think broader trends can be gleaned from that particular game. it was a theme with very narrow appeal and very little promotion or hype that i saw.

True....but I think the theme/game has a lot to do with it as well. Mustang is a triple whammy.

-It's a very specific theme without broad appeal.
-There are ZERO playfield toys or cool mechanical features, even on the Prem/LE (spinning car doesn't count...who cares lol)
-The art is pretty terrible, and gets worse with each pricier version

Part of it is market psychology ...people were buying LE games sight unseen after BBB, Tron LE, and AC/DC BIBLE shot up in crazy value....but part of it was actual "cool" themes that people really loved - and cool games with cool features as well. Now that its less likely that a game is going to shoot up in value, you've lost your speculation buyers. A game is going to have to be reallllly f*cking special for people to drop big money on it now. Good game + good theme + good code....that's a whole other story that still refuses to go away. Too many games still need updates, and each time a game comes out with a queue of code-thirsty games behind it....more people will sit on their wallets.

I wouldn't know, I hate comic books and sci-fi so just about every late Stern game minus a couple were themes I couldn't stand.

I liked Mustang a LOT more than I thought I would, and I am not a car guy at all.

Or if there is a next.

LTG : )™
Disclaimer : I hope there is, but only time will tell.

Ditto that. Over $5K for a location machine doesn't make sense. That doesn't mean I won't do it, but at pro pricing it is safe for an op to be all in.

I completely agree with what you are saying (except that Mustang LE is of very little significance here because of it being a theme that few pinheads wanted, so the price of the LE on that title is irrelevant), but my comments were specific to a MB remake.

But you knew that. So...I agree!

The Rumor Mill told me he is making a $1200 pinball machine. Lucky 7.

Put your own bias aside...objectively, you have to realize that comic books/comic book character movies & sci-fi are hugely popular & appeal to both genders, all ages, and people worldwide. The hardcore fans of the genre spends TONS of money on trinkets and memorabilia.

Mustang appeals to men who are really into a specific car. That's it.

Also, liking a game is different than spending thousands on one for home or location. I'm sure I'd like Mustang if I played it...I'd never buy one, though.

comics/ superheroes are a male dominated market, just like mustangs. Liking comics/ superheroes is very different than spending 1000's of dollars to put one on location or in your house too.

I don't completely understand how the announcement fueled any kind of disagreement.

This might not be the best scenario if you put it in the scope of all plausible scenarios that exist in the universe (i.e. PPS getting some master alien race to assemble them), but this is by far the best scenario out of the ones we have to pick from.

i think you'd be better off conceding the point. it's pretty obvious that a mustang pin has a much narrower appeal than mainstream comics / movie franchises.

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no, he's right. i know the older dudebros here probably think it's all "zit-ridden boys in their parents basements" or whatever but that's as outdated an outlook as saying "only nerds use the internet".

200,000 people attended comicon last year and The Avengers grossed over $600 million at the box office. Mustang is peanuts by comparison.

Exactly. The box office of the Marvel movies especially shows female interest. Boys, girls, men, women are all into the big super hero movies.

Women love Spider-Man (hot dude in spandex, romance)

They love The Avengers (hot funny dudes saving the world)

They love X-Men....chicks dig Hugh Jackman & Michael Fassbender

Women even love the new Star Trek movies...ever hear chicks talk about Cumberbatch!?

ok... maybe you're right....

comic-con-bear-wonder-woman-360x480.jpg

Wait, let me expand on my by first reitterating that I am not the "normal female" and do not want to be or claim to be. Things are certainly more progressive these days with lots of campaigns for women to be able to be as geeky as they want, play with "boys toys," etc, and I'm thankful for that. I am a geek/nerd mostly by exposure from my husband and know of the movies/comics/etc because of that, and have no problem at all being a nerd/geek. My phone case is R2D2, and I paid extra for the R2D2 version phone the time before last. My whole house is a ThinkGeek catalog explosion. I love playing our Spiderman pin and went with husband to see the lastest Spiderman movie.

But with that being said, wouldn't on my own have purposely hunted down a full-price Spiderman pin or paid to go see the movie if it was just me. I will gladly play pretty much any pin, superhero or no, but I don't want to spend lots of money to own them. Female or not, the superhero stuff is getting old. There can only be so many remakes and prequels and sequels and redos and character spin-offs before it all just runs together into one big burnt-out mess.

(Also, I don't think any of them are hot, and from that list the only one I can stand is Iron Man because he's smartass Robert Downey. If I want a pin because I want to look at the guy, then someone please make me a 300 pin. I can't tell you anything that happened in that movie, but I know there were lots of sweaty muscles.)

Again, personal biases aside - Superhero/comic book based movies have proven themselves to appeal to all ages/genders/nationalities...it's just a fact. Therefore it's a safe assumption that a pinball machine based on something that appeals to "everyone" has a bigger chance of success than something like Mustang which doesn't.

Also good design/code/sound/art/toys.

I fully agree that if I was making a pinball machine and trying to sell as many of them as possible for routing and home use, I'm definitely going to try to appeal to the widest audience I possibly can. And yes, superhero/comic certainly fit into that category. I just wouldn't go so far to say that all women are interested in and begging to go see hot guys in spandex as much as I would say that lately there's a big push that "geek is cool" and the 'in' thing to be is a female nerd, plus there's not really a good option for movies otherwise. (Especially "girl" movies that would work into a pinball machine... )

And the biggest factor is the sheer inundation with them, because they are marketed on everything! lol (Insert pic of Vanilla Ice holding TMNT mac n cheese here.) You can't escape the comics, and of course little kids are going to know what they are by seeing them everywhere on everything. Seriously though, someone look at the list below and tell me that we're not going to get to comic burnout sooner than later.

But hey, whatever helps sell more pinball machines, I'm all for it. Also, my Spiderman pin rocks.

(Marvel & DC in the works, not including speculation movies)
2000 X-Men
2002 Spider-man
2003 Daredevil, X2, Hulk
2004 Punisher, Spider-Man 2, Catwoman
2005 Elektra, Fantastic Four, Batman Begins
2006 X-Men Last Stand, Superman Returns
2007 Ghost Rider, Spider-Man 3, Fantastic Four Silver Surfer, Dark Knight
2008 Iron Man, Incredible Hulk
2009 X-Men Origins, Watchmen
2010 Iron Man 2
2011 Thor, X-Men First Class, Captain America, Green Lantern
2012 Avengers, Amazing Spider-Man, Dark Knight Rises
2013 Iron Man 3, The Wolverine, Thor Dark World, Man of Steel
2014 Captain America Winter Soldier, Amazing Spider-man 2, X-Men Days of Future Past, Guardians of the Galaxy
2015 Avengers Ultron, Fantastic Four reboot, Ant-Man
2016 Captain America 3, X-Men Apocalypse, Amazing Spider-man 3, Man of Steel 2, Batman vs Superman
2017 Wolverine 2, Fantastic Four reboot sequel
2018 Amazing Spiderman 4