Dude, I agree yet that's the discussion Rommy was putting out there. By the way 8,12, 17, 27 and ....

Great news for everyone in Pinball! Smart business move as well. You have the most experienced pinball assemblers available today using the highest quality pinball parts made to assemble one of the best pinball machines of all time all in a reasonable time frame..... How could anyone see this as a bad thing?

Yesterday Tony said Iron Man (one of the most cost-cut Sterns ever) was superior to WOZ. He also constantly pimps AC/DC BIB LE. So, clearly collectors are OK with what comes out of the Stern factory.

I'm not sure if you're being facetious or willfully ignorant or just trolling. Stern's not designing these games. Stern's not creating the parts. Stern has literally ZERO to do with the creation of these games. They were all created by Williams ~20 years ago. We know the designs. Williams. We know the parts. Williams. Chicago Gaming has redesigned the electronics. Stern is literally just assembling, because they have factory full of trained pinball builders who know how to assemble a pinball machine. If CGC did it in their own building & contracted the Stern employees to come over there and build the games, would it be a Stern game? lol

TeeKee is being awfully quiet.

In most cases the clone/repo of the original ends up being worth less, this is true with most items Cars, Guns, ect
Will it hold true for pinball?? time will tell...

PS.Talking apples to apples here... not comparing a clapped out routed MM to a new MMr...
Comparing a nice example of a Williams MM vs PPS MMr

I like how someone else pointed out that no one seems to have any issues with Apple having their iPhones and iPads assembled at Foxconn in China. At the end of the day, we all open our boxes and go, "Oooooh...look at the shiny iPhone!"

Just like people will crack open their new MMRs (regardless of where they were assembled) and go, "Oooooh...look at the shiny new MMR!"

At least in the case of MMR, it's being made in the good ol' US of A!

Now if only the lack of a need to build/setup a factory, train staff, etc. meant a lower price so I could afford one.

The only thing worth nothing about MMr's price/value is that before MMr, a NIB MM (if ever located) would be like $30k. Now it's $8k. That's the only price context that matters with this game at this time.

Question of the hour.

You are correct with your assessment above. A 1964 Shelby Cobra is worth more than a brand new one even built by Shelby in Las Vegas. The new one is probably technically superior with higher grade components, some modernization in braking, etc.

There were differences with the IPB BBB's as well but the board sets were essentially the same along with the components.

I, myself, would rather have a new MMr as it seems like WPC 2.0 looks pretty cool along with some of the newer electronics.

I am very interested to see what values will be next year at this time. Either way, its all good for pinball.

I'm more interested in the jjp predator. Jack stated in the owners group that if Kevin asked he would be willing to help them.

It will be fun to see what happens. Clone cars get driven and enjoyed, rare originals sit in museums or collections and don't get used. I'll go with the repro and enjoy the crap out of it.

Fuck there's so many hands in this
Got to be room for my headphone kits built in? Lol

I'm very happy with this news!

As my MMR preorder is my first pinball purchase and MM is my favorite all-time machine, I thought it would be best to get a NIB machine to start with. I'm very glad to see that they have a solid plan to seriously ramp up production.

Thank you.

well, I don't really think the car analogy is apt here, for a bunch of reasons. For one thing, car technology progressed by leaps and bounds from say the classic era of the 50s through today. safety, performance, features, capabilities, reliability all improved tremendously. a classic car is far, far inferior in all measurable *practical* ways to a nice modern car.

But in MM's case, the degree of change in pinball machines from 1997 to now is really pretty minor.

then there's the fact that MMR is packed with features that make it in many ways superior to the original: full color LCD screen, triple-redundant LEDs with adjustable brightness and fade, software-integrated shaker, uncompressed audio, etc.

and on top of that, I honestly feel like MMR represents a big step forward technologically. the beaglebone black based platform they have developed allows unprecedented control and customization potential via software alone.

MMR may not end up being a highly coveted collectors item, but it will be a very fun and very cool pinball machine that people will want to own.

I read through this whole encyclopedia (look it up if you don't know what that is) of a thread.

I was looking for a downside to PPS doing this.

And gosh darn it, I couldn't find one. This is just a win for everyone.

Everyone making the game, everyone buying the game, and everyone building the game.

Well done! Hope the final product is great!

Chris

It is not a win for people who invested a fair amount of money into restoring an MM/buying a mint MM thinking that it would just rise in value since none would ever be made again.

Now, many pinball speculators are doing their best to make sure people distinguish the differences and point out deficiencies in the new model to help protect their investments. There will be short term and long term ramifications on the collectiblity of these titles now that reproductions have started and there is just too much money sitting out there for people to not have strong opinions.

Its obvious that Rick was right on with MM demand when he sold a 1000 reproductions in one day.

Get into pinball for the love of it, not to make money. This is a good rule of thumb for all hobbies.

Is this true? Would be cool to have JJP step in and help SkitB, but I have to think that their fees to do so would be too much given the current agreed price point.

this kinda seems like offering to help a homeless person by selling them a house that's on fire.

Agree with some of this ^ but I will take 1 LED per insert (original MM) that I can easily swap out with different colors or maybe I don't want LED's at all... over the triple redundant new LED system that has the LED's soldered onto a giant board... JMHO

Exciting times in pinball my friends! I think we need to focus on the real problem for most of us:
1. Lack of $$$ to buy all the games we want
2. Lack of room to fit all the games we want if we could afford them all

so a car analogy is not apt- because cars have changed a lot and pinball hasn't, except that MMR is way more advanced than MM. did you get off your schizophrenia drugs?

I agree. But many on this hobby are in it for the money with the value increases over the past five years.

In my opinion, they should stick with coins as they are cheaper to ship and easier to store and insure...

That seems like the last thing JJP should consider doing. Doesn't seem like their line is anywhere near a point where they could/should/can help anyone else get their pins assembled (when they have trouble building their own).

the gameplay and look/feel improvements are relatively minor, but the underlying tech is a lot better. it's not really a difficult concept.

I think my Shelby Cobra comparison holds true in this analogy. Not something like a Corvette.

The differences between a 1964 Shelby Cobra and brand new "continuation" Cobra are not too much. Basically the same car with differences mainly in component technology like the engine, brakes, etc. Neither have any type of safety nannies like most major sports cars and they can both kill you in a heartbeat weighing 2500 lbs and sporting 500+ horsepower.

An original 1964 Cobra is worth well north of 1 million and a continuation even with an aluminum body can be had for $125k. And the new one is probably going to be more reliable and perform slightly better in certain areas.

"but the underlying tech is a lot better"
I think you meant to say IF the underlying tech is alot better? I think we have all seen what "better tech" did for WOZ with the Board issues that it has been plagued with. MMr's new Tech may turn out to be way better than the original MM but lets be real it is WAY to early to proclaim that yet.
Lets revisit this topic in 1 year, 5 years...20 years

I wish PPS the best of luck as I am wanting CCr & MBr

Disclaimer: Yes I do own an original MM (this is my 5th MM in the last 12 years) so I am going to steal your gotcha moment

nah, you're making reasoned statements and not accusing me of mental illness.

LOL Pezpunk I think you are quite sane and I agree with you on many of your points

I totally agree

Ummm. Ok. It took me a year and a half to design and build that Star Trek Game.
So why is it taking him so long as a company to build them? Yeah; I had issues and delays... but I made the TPF'14 deadline I committed to. It cost me in $$ and in time... I worked overtime to do it. So he's a COMPANY with employees and he still can't make deadlines or manufacturing goals?

So no; I don't think it's harsh one bit.
If I had preordered it... or hobbit - I'd be mad as hell that he hasn't shipped yet.
He's been in manufacturing for what... a year? and still hasn't filled demand.
Something's off here guys. JJP is picking and choosing his battles which means nothing in the long run if it takes him 6 freaking years to ship preordered games.

So; you guys tell me... has Jack came to a show anywhere (or posted here) and shown a plan for when he will finish shipping WOZ?
If you say no... then that's a real problem. It means one of two things:
1) he doesn't know.
2) he doesn't care.

del me

I think you are missing my point. These games will be made by Stern.

And BTW, why would you be worried if MMr is made by Stern? Obviously these machines will be manufactured by SPI. Another way to put it is Stern is making these games, right? When someone asks, "who made that game?" - the answer will be Stern , right? Not CGC or JJP or any other manufacturer. I don't get why people care if it is labeled as being made by Stern. As a collector ( is that a bad word now for some reason? ) I might want both the original and the one made by Stern (or whoever we decide is making these).

Jack can't fill paid in full orders from 3 years ago, he certainly should not add another machine to further slow production down.

Stern though, could actually build all the Predators in a single week.

They aren't made by Stern. They are assembled by Stern. Stern has created nothing that is going into this game, they are just putting it together.

And that is a good thing!

Sterns assembly quality is much higher than Williams was back in the day.

Not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for some people. As has been said 100 times, this is a good thing that Stern is 'assembling' MMr!!!!

Can anyone name a company that they would rather have assemble MMR than Stern? I mean what are the options really ? JJP's factory would take well over a year to build the first 1000 games, Chicago Gaming would have to hire and train all new employees, most of the boutique companies rely on volunteers or hire a few inexperienced assemblers. I suppose you could try outsourcing to China but who wants that? Wayne from Australia could maybe get it done in a decade or two? There's really no other better options that I can think of unless I'm missing something.

You are disconnected. It's assembled by Stern, not made by Stern. made by Stern = terrible. It's an MM, it's supposed to feel like an MM not a Stern. Good thing it's not that.

Stern is putting all the finished parts together, that's it. They are making nothing. Assembling is not making.

That's hilarious! I think he's been banned from here

Assembly of MMR is in good hands.
pic_006.jpg

All this talk about "quality" is funny anyway.

All pinball machines are a box made of 3/4" plywood (usually made by CGC, no matter what brand), and a playfield made of 1/2" wood (often also made by CGC) , covered by a sheet of 3/16" glass.

If a game build "feels solid" to you, it's because it has been built according to a formula that has proven itself over the last 50 years.

CGC made the original MM playfield and cabinet (look for the CCC stamp on the side of an original playfield) and is making the new ones.....

CGC delivers playfields and cabinets to Stern every week, just like they used to do with Williams.

Well me and the IRS are going to have to disagree LOL. There is some % of work, assembly, whatever, that makes it yours. If you put it all together I think that makes it yours, could be wrong though. I know you are not suggesting Stern would need to manufacture the silicone in the parts to be a manufacturer.

I mean I could be wrong - but I think that is what the Stern factory does - they assemble pinball machines.

RICK - I am just messing with these pinheads! I can't reply to your emails or you would know already. Some people here , let's just say if you insert a grain of salt into their shell you DO NOT get a pearl I am Sales Order #1038 from Pinball Sales aka Jack Guarnieri Service Company. and I don't care who manufactures it, Rick, as long as I get one.

Let me google that on my Foxconn iPhone.

That's hilarious! I think he got banned?

Haha, I see what you did there

Exactly, Stern assembling it does not mean they designed anything about the game and their name or logo won't be on the machine anywhere.

I'm very excited about this news it means I will have my pin in a timely manner. Great move by PPS IMO especially if they knew there was no way to deliver pins on the predicted timeline unless something like this happened. I know there are plenty of haters out for every maker of pins now days but fact is there is probably no set up in the world that can crank out Pins as effectively and efficiently as Stern. Good decision by all parties IMO it's a win win for buyers I'm stoked!

Did you leave off a smiley when you posted that?

If anyone should be helping anyone:

Jack should swallow his pride and beg Stern to help get JJP pins out the door. Clearly, they excel at the dreamwork and designwork, NOT the production side of pinball.

Stern can built/ship as many machines in ONE month as JJP has stumbled through YEARS trying to get out the door. The WoZ backlog could be cranked out in about ONE WEEK (no -ish)....

Obviously this would never happen give the EGO involved, but it sure would leverage the skillset of both companies...

The better question is, would stern even take that job?

No way. JJP can't supply parts to their own assembly line to keep it moving. Having Stern assemble their games would not help this.