(Topic ID: 90903)

ANN: MMR assembly to be done by Stern Pinball for PPS/Chicago Gaming!


By PPS

5 years ago



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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Bigboythursday
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There are 539 posts in this topic. You are on page 11 of 11.
#501 5 years ago
Quoted from Hondanut:

You are 100% right,also the MMR will have adjustable flipper strength

I guess I will have to continue to make due with my non-adjustable strength flippers that are hopelessly stuck on "strong" setting.

OK, that was a funny, but I actually have a serious question regarding this. To be able to adjust for low line voltage one would need to know what the line voltage is coming into the game. Does the game internally measure this and report back to the user when it encounters this situation, or is it expected/assumed that all end users will have a multimeter to properly measure this themselves? If it's the latter maybe the games could include a simple meter in the goody bag? If the flippers get weak it's a bad assumption to just crank a setting as there could be a mechanical problem that needs attention instead...

#502 5 years ago

Not true. Even if you can't do surface mount stuff there is a shop local that can do it for you for a few bucks. And if you live in BFE, you can for a few bucks ship the board off and have it done at any of the shops that work on boards today.

You are painting a picture of hugely expensive boards that have no way of being repaired and it's just not true. Have you seen the pics of Stern's new boardset? Take a quick look, spoiler alert though, it's small.

Quoted from Whysnow:

If an original MM fails in some way it is usually a simple and cheap fix that anyone with reasonable skills can fix.

With MMR the only option may be infact to switch out a faulty board since many people can't do surface mount.

You ever bring your MM to a pinball show?

Quoted from viper001:

I guess I will have to continue to make due with my non-adjustable strength flippers that are hopelessly stuck on "strong" setting.

#503 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

Does the game internally measure this and report back to the user when it encounters this situation, or is it expected/assumed that all end users will have a multimeter to properly measure this themselves? If it's the latter maybe the games could include a simple meter in the goody bag? If the flippers get weak it's a bad assumption to just crank a setting as there could be a mechanical problem that needs attention instead...

This is a good point. Unless the game uses fuzzy logic adaptive neural network algorithms to predictively alternate the voltage constraints to forecasted optimum values with a "just in time" implementation strategy - then I am out.

Then again, if the glossy black trim looks good then I'm probably back in.

#504 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

Does the game internally measure this and report back to the user when it encounters this situation, or is it expected/assumed that all end users will have a multimeter to properly measure this themselves?

The game could report the line voltage, CPU temp, total operating hours, 5v and 12v lines, burned out bulbs...........anything that it is programed to do (your computer at home already does this in the BIOS).

With a few lines of code, the program could automatically compensate by raising the flipper strength on a per-determined ratio from the line voltage.

#505 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

TFA > you can't really beleive that MMR will come out flawless with no issues???

I think it will be fine. Remember when Vid said how Vacation America was built like a tank? I'm not really too concerned. Flawless? Of course not but I owned Avengers....how much worse can QC get?

#506 5 years ago
Quoted from wrinkle:

Then again, if the glossy black trim looks good then I'm probably back in.

Exactly.

#507 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

says the guy being a remake of a over 20 year old design...
glad you think that 1 year from delivery PPS will be giving out free boards in the case that they fail...
If an original MM fails in some way it is usually a simple and cheap fix that anyone with reasonable skills can fix.
With MMR the only option may be infact to switch out a faulty board since many people can't do surface mount.

They don't have to give them away....at $30 a pop they practically give themselves away. I spend more than that each month on stuff I don't need from PBL.

#508 5 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Seriously?
This argument has been beaten to death. If it's apples to apples it can't be a better game. Not talking about innards. I'm talking about exact same condition. You would still choose an MMr?
Does not compute, does not compute...

It's NOT apples to apples....MMr is better from the get go. More value added features....and modern technology.

#509 5 years ago
Quoted from wrinkle:

Unless the game uses fuzzy logic adaptive neural network algorithms to predictively alternate the voltage constraints to forecasted optimum values with a "just in time" implementation strategy ...

Ahhh - this whole thread wasn't making any sense to me but now I get it. Thanks for clearing that up

#510 5 years ago
Quoted from mac622:

algorithms to predictively alternate the voltage constraints

He had me at....

#511 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

There is the problem, you are assuming...
All evidence would say that MMR WILL have issues. This is especially true since it is a completely new and untested board set of surface mount parts that has been poorly engineered to be under the pf where ti will get dirtier and experience more stress/vibration.

This is all equally as invalid an assumption...just sayin'. The good news is is that the game will come out and we can actually make conclusions based on data instead of speculation on both sides.

#512 5 years ago

My point was that based on history (i.e. the vast majority of games have some issues in the past history of all game manufacturers) the smart individual would logically fall on the side of issues being likely for MMR.

If anyone wants to bet that MMR will be 100% flawless then let me know what sort of odds you are offering.
I will bet that there will be some sort of failure (i.e. Burnt connectors on B/W games, failed HP sections on DMD drivers, light boards on WOZ, opto boards on Sterns, grounding issues on Gottliebs, etc...).

I would assume these failures will be addressed while games are under warranty, but past that date it will be on the owners to figure it out (no different than other games).

My entire point is that I will always prefer the known (easy to fix and parts readily available) compared to the unknown (a totally new design which from an engineering perspective is not designed for optimal longevity >> really?? boards under the damn pf and not even covered with coils firing directly in the center of the boards!?!?!!?). I find it foolish to assume a product with this sort of design (done for cost cutting rather than quality/performance) will not have issues when released. It is not a matter of old is better, but rather that the new has not been properly designed or tested IMHO (and priced at a premium to suck up the little remaining LE dollars, but that is another point).

#513 5 years ago

I dont think the design was solely done for cost cutting. Its plain stupid to not leverage new technology. The old boardset would not allow for proper led driving, adjustable flipper strength, color displays (without add ons) Multiple code versions to run on the same machine (mm and mm2.0 are rumored) To me if they didnt update the hardware I would have been disappointed. I am sure there will a few growing pains but thats why I am buying a new game with a warranty, if problems show up years down the road I will either fix them myself (with help) or replace the problem parts...If you can swing an 8000 toy a few hundred hypothetical dollars years in the future shouldnt be a big deal.

#514 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

My entire point is that I will always prefer the known (easy to fix and parts readily available) compared to the unknown (a totally new design which from an engineering perspective is not designed for optimal longevity >> really?? boards under the damn pf and not even covered with coils firing directly in the center of the boards!?!?!!?). I find it foolish to assume a product with this sort of design (done for cost cutting rather than quality/performance) will not have issues when released. It is not a matter of old is better, but rather that the new has not been properly designed or tested IMHO (and priced at a premium to suck up the little remaining LE dollars, but that is another point).

You find it foolish for someone not to agree with your opinion which is based on assumptions? Which is exactly what you called out another poster on, basing opinion on assumptions.

We will all see it play out, no need to flame on someone with a different opinion. Your wallet will speak louder than a forum post. Cool if you want it, cool if you don't.

#515 5 years ago

Can't wait to see those "Silver Jets" (right Rick? Nothing but the best for us LE buyers!?!) sliding across that deeply clear coated playfield! To look up at my color display and hear Tina Fey compliment me on my swordplay. In stereo.

#516 5 years ago

Guys,

Wait until the machine is done before declaring it junk or the best thing ever. This is how the WoZ crap started. We don't need a redux of that and we'll only know how it is once it's done.

#517 5 years ago

We always fear the unknown It's 2014. If the boards looked like 1998 something would be really screwy.

Nobody thinks that every game will be 100%. No mass produced pinball machine ever made has been 100% flawless. If it was, it wouldn't be a pinball machine

The game will work, and there won't be any major issues. How do I know? I don't. I'm not an engineer or an expert, but the people making these things are. JJP dropped the ball, MMLE won't be as bad. Hopefully, not even close.

Quoted from Whysnow:

My entire point is that I will always prefer the known (easy to fix and parts readily available) compared to the unknown (a totally new design which from an engineering perspective is not designed for optimal longevity >> really??

#518 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

We always fear the unknown It's 2014. If the boards looked like 1998 something would be really screwy.
Nobody thinks that every game will be 100%. No mass produced pinball machine ever made has been 100% flawless. If it was, it wouldn't be a pinball machine
The game will work, and there won't be any major issues. How do I know? I don't. I'm not an engineer or an expert, but the people making these things are. JJP dropped the ball, MMLE won't be as bad. Hopefully, not even close.

Very well said. With the simplified boards and cabling MMr can't help but be more reliable than the original. Comparing to the JJP LED board problems is also apples and oranges. This is 2014 and we are talking about LEDs. Freakin LEDs! The LED board problems at JJP can only possibly stem from one thing: incompetence. A good company runs a tight Quality Management System. Some of the core tenets of producing a quality product on time are learning from past industry mistakes, running a tightly managed supplier chain and dealing directly with customer satisfaction or lack thereof (reference ISO-9000). I am very impressed with PPS and the way they have approached this whole MMr process. We all know they are good at dealing with suppliers and providing good quality parts and now with Stern doing the MMr assembly there is little doubt in my mind they will produce a great quality product and on time too.

#519 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I would assume these failures will be addressed while games are under warranty, but past that date it will be on the owners to figure it out (no different than other games).

Another way to look at this is that the next game that PPS releases will extend their responsibility to address any platform issues for another 12 months and so on and so forth until they either stop making games or change the platform entirely. So anyone will be able to leverage the knowledge base and fixes etc as required for years to come IMHO and we will all become as familiar with that technology as we are with yesterday's tech. Sure out of warranty will be at owners cost but at least they won't be left on their own as far as the What & How.

Progress is constant

#520 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If anyone wants to bet that MMR will be 100% flawless

Please reference all the people who are claiming MMr to be 100% flawless?

I think the fact that MMr has built in redundancies and extra adjust-ability SHOWS they understand these things are prone to fail on occasion and are doing their best to "plan ahead."

Quoted from Whysnow:

My entire point is that I will always prefer the known (easy to fix and parts readily available) compared to the unknown

The absence of "100% flawless perfection" should not be the litmus test for progress...

Or, are you stuck in 1997 with ALL your purchases? Surely you are still using:

VHS player (those dvd players use LASERS!??!?!!?!? - That CANT be safe!!!!!)
big old tube television set (those new-fanged flat things are scary and NON-REPAIRABLE)
Sexy 1997 car of the year, the Chevy Malibu

I'll wait for your response (since it probably take a while to upload it via your 14.4k modem)...

IBM_PC_5150-300x216.jpg

-8
#521 5 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

Very well said. With the simplified boards and cabling MMr can't help but be more reliable than the original.

Let me put forth another scenario and see how it lines up what has been shown. The games show up in Texas as promised and I will be the first to admit, seeing all those brand new shiny ramps and playfield parts it looks really nice. Job well done. But then we get our first negative report, there is a bad electrical circuit, they have confirmed this with testing the outlet, we are verbally assured this is the problem. Why does everyone automatically accept this as fact? Why wasn't the game just moved to another electrical outlet, did the presenters not bring a longer extension cord to plug it into another outlet/circuit?

So let's just follow my conspiracy track a little further. Everyone is excited about the announcement 3 weeks later that now the flipper strength is adjustable. Really? Why did they spend time engineering an adjustment in software for something that happened at that one show? Isn't it at least possible that they were scrambling to fix a real problem with the game that didn't demonstrate until it had a lot of continuous play? If the game makes another public appearance with weak flippers even the fans are going to be scratching their heads and it would be a marketing disaster. PAGG cancellation anyone?

I could be wrong, but if I'm right expect continued show cancellations. I honestly hope I'm wrong, or else that the problems found can be fixed in a short time frame without a redesign of any of the hardware as I'm guessing that would be an unacceptable delay. Personally I would like to see Rick in business for a long while and able to remake a lot of titles than rush to market with problems and be a "one and out" business.

#522 5 years ago

The games had issues at Texas?

I have not really kept up on MMR and had no idea they were acting up.

#523 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

The games had issues at Texas?
I have not really kept up on MMR and had no idea they were acting up.

Played just fine for me. There was a time where that part of the room had significantly low voltage which affected everything in that area, but I never witnessed it.

#524 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

I could be wrong,

Here's the part I agree with

#525 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

So let's just follow my conspiracy track a little further.

Let's not, you were ridiculous with it last time you started this, and you're just digging in deeper. Are you still out with your hat and magnifying glass on the trail of Professor Moriarty's dastardly plot to make the WOZ flippers weak?

#526 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

Let me put forth another scenario and see how it lines up what has been shown. The games show up in Texas as promised and I will be the first to admit, seeing all those brand new shiny ramps and playfield parts it looks really nice. Job well done. But then we get our first negative report, there is a bad electrical circuit, they have confirmed this with testing the outlet, we are verbally assured this is the problem. Why does everyone automatically accept this as fact? Why wasn't the game just moved to another electrical outlet, did the presenters not bring a longer extension cord to plug it into another outlet/circuit?
So let's just follow my conspiracy track a little further. Everyone is excited about the announcement 3 weeks later that now the flipper strength is adjustable. Really? Why did they spend time engineering an adjustment in software for something that happened at that one show? Isn't it at least possible that they were scrambling to fix a real problem with the game that didn't demonstrate until it had a lot of continuous play? If the game makes another public appearance with weak flippers even the fans are going to be scratching their heads and it would be a marketing disaster. PAGG cancellation anyone?
I could be wrong, but if I'm right expect continued show cancellations. I honestly hope I'm wrong, or else that the problems found can be fixed in a short time frame without a redesign of any of the hardware as I'm guessing that would be an unacceptable delay. Personally I would like to see Rick in business for a long while and able to remake a lot of titles than rush to market with problems and be a "one and out" business.

Yup your wrong ,I played the game in Texas it played great,although it was quite a bit faster than my original and had a lot stronger flippers than mine?

#527 5 years ago
Quoted from Hondanut:

Yup your wrong ,I played the game in Texas it played great,although it was quite a bit faster than my original and had a lot stronger flippers than mine?

the original you sold for 6500 but never had pictures of???

that one?

#528 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

The games had issues at Texas?
I have not really kept up on MMR and had no idea they were acting up.

The issue at Texas wasn't MMr...it was a very sinister and thought provoking lack of extension cords.

#529 5 years ago
Quoted from btw75:

Played just fine for me. There was a time where that part of the room had significantly low voltage which affected everything in that area, but I never witnessed it.

This same thing used to happen when the Allentown show was at the Merchant's square location. Line voltage would drop and the flippers would be weak. I had countless complaints about my Black Knight at those shows, but yet it was fine when I got it home where the voltage was good.

Ivan has addressed and fixed this for the Allentown Show, but sounds like the TPF had the same situation.

I think it is great that the MMr team is allowing for something this, even if it never should happen again.

Chris

#530 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

Why wasn't the game just moved to another electrical outlet, did the presenters not bring a longer extension cord to plug it into another outlet/circuit?

If you've ever been to a Pinshow, you don't just go plug into another outlet. There are no other outlets.

Each "leg" of the circuit is run with how many games will fit into the available current.

The "outlets" are temporary feeds and drops to the games, you don't just look along the walls for a receptacle to plug into.

You can't just run an extension cord to another circuit, because the next one is already full too (let alone the trip hazard of running cords outside of the cable raceways).

#531 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

So let's just follow my conspiracy track a little further.

10
#532 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

... did the presenters not bring a longer extension cord to plug it into another outlet/circuit?

You do understand that low voltage issues are very common at pinball shows? Adding a longer extension cord to a low voltage problem will only make the problem worse. It's pretty simple really: Longer cord = more resistance = lower voltage.

Roger Sharpe has approved the game. By promoting these conspiracy theories here, you insult Roger IMO. I'd ask you nicely to stop, but I doubt you'd listen.

#533 5 years ago

Viper001,
let me be the first to say I am sorry. You must be taking a huge hit on some classic titles to be so down. While I am glad to enjoy this and what looks like many more A titles I do feel bad that it will affect you. Hopefully the joy of playing and owning originals will win for you in the end. Again I am very sorry.

#534 5 years ago

I'm upvoting phishrace, that's how off base you are.

#535 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

Why wasn't the game just moved to another electrical outlet, did the presenters not bring a longer extension cord to plug it into another outlet/circuit?

0470147040.jpg

#536 5 years ago

You're all part of the coverup!

#537 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

) it's way early to make any assumptions on their awesomeness...

Definitely not to early for people with money on the line. When you are buying something like this you kind of do need to make a judgement call based on the info available at the time. After hearing that the prototypes are playing well, the news that the Stern factory will be building them, and given the dedication PPS has shown with this project to this point I'm betting (with my own money) that it will be awesome and in many areas be better than a 20 year old pin. I think many LE buyers are in the same boat.

If it is way too early to make assumptions why have you filled many MMR threads with theories on what you think could go wrong? It's not like it's once or twice you go on and on about it. To me based on your posts you think it is prime time to make assumptions on the project. Almost every time I open up a MMR thread it is you with the same assumptions/possible worst case scenarios beating a dead horse like a drum.

1 month later
#538 5 years ago

The block feature works great on this site. : )

#539 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

says the guy being a remake of a over 20 year old design...
glad you think that 1 year from delivery PPS will be giving out free boards in the case that they fail...
If an original MM fails in some way it is usually a simple and cheap fix that anyone with reasonable skills can fix.
With MMR the only option may be infact to switch out a faulty board since many people can't do surface mount.

Sounds like someone is getting very worried and jealous about the new and improved MM that will be out soon!
It will be ok just sell your route beater and buy a new one!

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