(Topic ID: 90903)

ANN: MMR assembly to be done by Stern Pinball for PPS/Chicago Gaming!


By PPS

5 years ago



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There are 539 posts in this topic. You are on page 10 of 11.
#451 5 years ago

It takes a community to make a pinball machine.... er.. no, wait... actually it doesn't Keep up the great work Rick, and keep up the thick skin. Most everyone appreciates the open communication and feeling of being on the inside for this project. It's an exciting time for pinball!

#452 5 years ago

@PPS
So Rick I have an order in for MMR LE and since the latest updates like Stern doing the assembly work which could speed things up maybe could you update us on when the first set of pins might be shipped. To me it would be interesting to see the timeline and how things are progressing rather then talking about trim details. Looking at the PPS site it said the pin would be availbale by year end 2014 so would every LE ordered by shipped by then do you think. I will not hold you to the dates but just curious to how things are progressing, like number of cabinets made, playfields, plastics etc. It would be interesting to know how all of these parts get made and brought together. Thanks

#453 5 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

Not everyone. MMr has improved clear, improved sound, capacity for increasing/decreasing flipper/coil strength.
I don't know, seems like MMr for someone planning on playing the game for years to come would go with the newer version.
We are not all collectors and pinball is thriving right now because of the infusion of new players, not collectors.
PPS is making speculators and collectors the dinosaurs of the hobby.

Good point. I agree that MMR could be more desirable to own for many of us possibly even including myself. I'm just saying that if we're comparing "apples to apples" as was mentioned.. ie. a NIB MM that someone found in a warehouse collecting dust for nearly 20 years or a HEP restored MM and you had your choice between that and a a MMR that nearly all of us would go with the original/HEP because it's currently more rare/valuable. If it were me I'd sell the original NIB or HEP to a "collector" and buy a bunch of games that I deemed more fun.

#454 5 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Valid points. I am saying if you have an original (meaning B/W, not necessarily all original parts) and an MMr. Same condition, same LED's, etc. etc. people will choose the MM 9/10 times.

From a price standpoint, I disagree that people will choose the MM 9/10 times. The part you are leaving out is that it will currently cost you $12k-$15k for the MM and $8k for the MMr. For many, including me, that overrides the 'collectable factor'.

#455 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Especially a high end restoration by a big name like HEP

I've already had calls from customers looking for a high end job on the MMr, so I'm sure HEP has too.

Those customers have told me that the Uncompressed Stereo Sound, Full Color DMD, Integrated Subwoofer Programming, and 100% new parts sold them on MMr.

#456 5 years ago

Unrelated question, but has it been decided what the cabinet process is on MMR? Are the cabinets going to be direct screened or decals? I also remember hearing something mentioned about a coating/clear that will be used to give the cabinet more shine?

-4
#458 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

the good news here with you is you will always be able to find something wrong with anything and everything (especially having no stake in the game which which makes it a bit obsessive), so you will never run out of material for pinside ... lol

Well, I was enjoying our conversation in PM until I asked if the new games were going to include the Fliptronics logic that made WMS games from the 90's kind of famous and you stopped responding. But then right about that time you had completely unrelated problems with electrical outlets and UL approval, and now WMS chief competitor from that era is going to be building these games so I didn't take it personally Rick, I know you are a busy guy.

#459 5 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

or some mythical non-existent mint condition original game that fell through a time tunnel from 1997?

I have one of those "mythical" machines. Bought it NIB in 1997 and have had it HUO ever since. For a variety of reasons, it's very low play (less than 1500).

There may not be many of them left, but I can't be the only person that bought MM NIB and still has it.

#460 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

but I can't be the only person that bought MM NIB and still has it.

I bought one NIB when it came out and still have it.

LTG : ) ™

#461 5 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

I bought one NIB when it came out and still have it.
LTG : ) ™

Do tell ,what game

#462 5 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

I bought one NIB when it came out and still have it.
LTG : ) ™

I noticed you didn't mention how many plays it has there Lloyd

#463 5 years ago

Stern will not make BBB. Stern isn't making MM. Stern won't make AFM, or MB or CC. You just make this stuff up as you go.

Quoted from rommy:

if PPS has Stern make BBB

#464 5 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

Stern will not make BBB. Stern isn't making MM. Stern won't make AFM, or MB or CC. You just make this stuff up as you go.

If I change it to assembled by Capcom, assembled by IP, or assembled by Stern, I don't think it changes the values they will fetch. It's a hypothetical example, you know, like "IF they make or remake(assemble) BBB" . Hypothetical examples are made up.

But I still don't think the remakes will have an effect on say, Kingpin, should it ever get remade. And why not? The original 4 will hold their value because of rarity and to some collectors, like those 4 guys, the originals are going to be more desireable. At least that's what I think, and yeah I am a newbie and you know that. You may poke fun at your leisure

#465 5 years ago

It's going to take people, especially MM owners a while, to figure out that the remake is better in a lot of ways. If you own an original, and that's what you want, good for you. If the remake is released like the superior product it's looking like, non-pinheads won't care, and not many other pinball people will care, but as long as you're happy, it shouldn't matter that it matters to very few other people or even nobody else cares that it's original.

Quoted from rommy:

If I change it to assembled by Capcom, assembled by IP, or assembled by Stern, I don't think it changes the values they will fetch. It's a hypothetical example, you know, like "IF they make or remake(assemble) BBB" . Hypothetical examples are made up.

But I still don't think the remakes will have an effect on say, Kingpin, should it ever get remade. And why not? The original 4 will hold their value because of rarity and to some collectors, like those 4 guys, the originals are going to be more desireable. At least that's what I think, and yeah I am a newbie and you know that. You may poke fun at your leisure

#466 5 years ago

many people pay a premium for proto's even if they are the same as the production game or just insert color differences. Its not because they are better, but just because they are the even more original and rarer.

#467 5 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

many people pay a premium for proto's even if they are the same as the production game or just insert color differences. Its not because they are better, but just because they are the even more original and rarer.

Exactly.

#468 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

If I change it to assembled by Capcom, assembled by IP, or assembled by Stern, I don't think it changes the values they will fetch. It's a hypothetical example, you know, like "IF they make or remake(assemble) BBB" . Hypothetical examples are made up.
But I still don't think the remakes will have an effect on say, Kingpin, should it ever get remade. And why not? The original 4 will hold their value because of rarity and to some collectors, like those 4 guys, the originals are going to be more desireable. At least that's what I think, and yeah I am a newbie and you know that. You may poke fun at your leisure

Original Kingpins won't be worth half of what they're worth now if they get re-made. Reducing the mystique and rarity of the game itself will cause it to lose value. It will still likely be worth $30k plus because of being a proto but not $60k plus. imho..

how much is a proto MM worth? I seem to remember one being around $20k on EBay and that was in a stronger pin market.

-2
#469 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

I have one of those "mythical" machines. Bought it NIB in 1997 and have had it HUO ever since. For a variety of reasons, it's very low play (less than 1500).
There may not be many of them left, but I can't be the only person that bought MM NIB and still has it.

Will you take $7,000 for it?

#471 5 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

I noticed you didn't mention how many plays it has there Lloyd

Doesn't matter how many. It's HUO since I spend more time here then anywhere else.

LTG : )™

#472 5 years ago
Quoted from Hondanut:

Will you take $7,000 for it?

No. I want to keep MM in my collection. Wouldn't make sense for me to sell my MM for less than the cost of an MMR and, since I don't think MMR will be substantially better than a PNIB/HUO MM, it wouldn't make sense to sell my MM unless is was enough above $8k to make it worthwhile.

#473 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

If I change it to assembled by Capcom, assembled by IP, or assembled by Stern, I don't think it changes the values they will fetch. It's a hypothetical example, you know, like "IF they make or remake(assemble) BBB" . Hypothetical examples are made up.
But I still don't think the remakes will have an effect on say, Kingpin, should it ever get remade. And why not? The original 4 will hold their value because of rarity and to some collectors, like those 4 guys, the originals are going to be more desireable. At least that's what I think, and yeah I am a newbie and you know that. You may poke fun at your leisure

If BBB gets made it is not the originals that will take the price hit but the ones Gene made years later. No way those are going to hold the value that they have now.

#474 5 years ago

I think at issue is how many is "many".. is it enough to set the market? Prototypes are 1-10 machines a run right? There are prob somewhere around 3k MMs left... are there 3k people that care about originality if the MMR version ends up being "better" technically?

Quoted from calvin12:

many people pay a premium for proto's even if they are the same as the production game or just insert color differences. Its not because they are better, but just because they are the even more original and rarer.

#475 5 years ago

I think MM will be the poors' man MMR real soon.

#476 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Original Kingpins won't be worth half of what they're worth now if they get re-made.

Original BBB are worth more than the ones Gene assembled and there are almost no differences.

Quoted from Plungemaster:

I think MM will be the poors' man MMR real soon.

Features and mods make MMr a better value now than a worn, beat to hell MM. Obviously, that is the cause of the price drop.

Price, 10 years from now, if things like condition are equal, I would think the MM original will sell for more. I am talking a well played, on route MMr. I am not talking about a HUO 500 play MMr, versus a beat to hell MM with 20k plays. Time and use will make the original numbers dwindle faster. I realize that most MMr will probably be HUO,

I wonder how those prices would compare to an original restored MM that is in comparable condition 10 years from now. I am guessing a hundred restored MM will be around then, versus 700 LE MMr, and another 500 MMr would be 10x the supply of an original well restored MM. Again, the comparison is with the same number of plays as the HUO MMr. (HEP, Keller, McCune and Kelly type restores)

Time will tell, and who knows, PPS might do an anniversary MMRR run in 10- 15 years making the MMR a poor mans MMRR.

#477 5 years ago
Quoted from jimjim66:

there are almost no differences.

Except for decaled cabinet, smaller tube dancer. No glow in the dark artwork on the apron.

LTG : )™

#478 5 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Except for decaled cabinet, smaller tube dancer. No glow in the dark artwork on the apron.

LTG : )™

Hence the word "almost no" versus a straight "no". Didn't an original sell north of 30k last year. 10k difference in price for those differences.

#479 5 years ago
Quoted from Hondanut:

Will you take $7,000 for it?

and neither did you since you never owned one...

#480 5 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

I think MM will be the poors' man MMR real soon.

EXACTLY!

#481 5 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

I think MM will be the poors' man MMR real soon.

This is the truth; barring unexpected electronics issue(s) (a la WoZ) where is the downside of MMR vs MM?

- 15+ years newer, has not been routed for tens of thousands of plays
- better sound
- easier to adjust lighting options, no need to worry about having to change bulbs "ever"
- its comes as a LE (if that somehow matters...)

Possible:
- better shaker support
- colorized display
- improved clearcoat?

I know I am missing some other stuff... but to me these are the big things that would matter in my purchase decision.

Where is the downside of MMR vs MM that would make it less functional than a comparable MM, assuming the game performs as expected.

#482 5 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

Where is the downside of MMR vs MM that would make it less functional than a comparable MM, assuming the game performs as expected.

There is the problem, you are assuming...

All evidence would say that MMR WILL have issues. This is especially true since it is a completely new and untested board set of surface mount parts that has been poorly engineered to be under the pf where ti will get dirtier and experience more stress/vibration.

B/W games had issues, Stern games obviously have issues (heck, we have had to repair the trough opto boards twice already on a bradn new STpro), WOZ has had issues, every game maker has issues.

I will take original with known issues that I can easily work on (not surface mount and I own other games that I can swap parts with to troubleshoot) plus the harder pfs (mirco stuff seems much softer to me than the old wood in old games) with better colors over the unknown and new of MMR. When (not if) MMR has its first issue watch and see what happens. You will surely have 1000 MMR owners trying to protect their overpriced "investment" just like happens with every new SternLE that comes out the door. Reality will set in after games are delivered and issues arise.

If by some miricale MMR has no issues EVER, then it could possibly suplant the demand of originals, but evidence of the past woudl suggest that wont happen.

-1
#483 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

There is the problem, you are assuming...
All evidence would say that MMR WILL have issues. This is especially true since it is a completely new and untested board set of surface mount parts that has been poorly engineered to be under the pf where ti will get dirtier and experience more stress/vibration.
B/W games had issues, Stern games obviously have issues (heck, we have had to repair the trough opto boards twice already on a bradn new STpro), WOZ has had issues, every game maker has issues.
I will take original with known issues that I can easily work on (not surface mount and I own other games that I can swap parts with to troubleshoot) plus the harder pfs (mirco stuff seems much softer to me than the old wood in old games) with better colors over the unknown and new of MMR. When (not if) MMR has its first issue watch and see what happens. You will surely have 1000 MMR owners trying to protect their overpriced "investment" just like happens with every new SternLE that comes out the door. Reality will set in after games are delivered and issues arise.
If by some miricale MMR has no issues EVER, then it could possibly suplant the demand of originals, but evidence of the past woudl suggest that wont happen.

It sounds like we are in agreement. We'll see how MMR continues to publicly perform.

Unlike WoZ's rollout where the games kept breaking, MMR's biggest complaint was weaker flippers due to low line voltage at pinball show. And this appears to have been addressed.

Also, I trust Rick to get this right based upon his communications so far. Please let me know if Gary or Jack has publicly posted a hotline for people to bitch (I mean discuss) about stuff.

If he gets it wrong he might have to change his phone number

#484 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

There is the problem, you are assuming...
All evidence would say that MMR WILL have issues. This is especially true since it is a completely new and untested board set of surface mount parts that has been poorly engineered to be under the pf where ti will get dirtier and experience more stress/vibration.
B/W games had issues, Stern games obviously have issues (heck, we have had to repair the trough opto boards twice already on a bradn new STpro), WOZ has had issues, every game maker has issues.
I will take original with known issues that I can easily work on (not surface mount and I own other games that I can swap parts with to troubleshoot) plus the harder pfs (mirco stuff seems much softer to me than the old wood in old games) with better colors over the unknown and new of MMR. When (not if) MMR has its first issue watch and see what happens. You will surely have 1000 MMR owners trying to protect their overpriced "investment" just like happens with every new SternLE that comes out the door. Reality will set in after games are delivered and issues arise.
If by some miricale MMR has no issues EVER, then it could possibly suplant the demand of originals, but evidence of the past woudl suggest that wont happen.

Womp womp.

#485 5 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

This is the truth; barring unexpected electronics issue(s) (a la WoZ) where is the downside of MMR vs MM?
- 15+ years newer, has not been routed for tens of thousands of plays
- better sound
- easier to adjust lighting options, no need to worry about having to change bulbs "ever"
- its comes as a LE (if that somehow matters...)
Possible:
- better shaker support
- colorized display
- improved clearcoat?
I know I am missing some other stuff... but to me these are the big things that would matter in my purchase decision.
Where is the downside of MMR vs MM that would make it less functional than a comparable MM, assuming the game performs as expected.

You are 100% right,also the MMR will have adjustable flipper strength , a plywood cabinet bottom, better sound(uncompressed original files),leg protectors,invisible glass, oh and a 1 yr warranty I think this is a no brainier.

#486 5 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

We'll see how MMR continues to publicly perform.

That is a great point, has there been any talk of the games being brought to any more shows or was PAGG the last chance before they go into production?

#487 5 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

That is a great point, has there been any talk of the games being brought to any more shows or was PAGG the last chance before they go into production?

I thought it was going to be at the tacoma show in about two weeks.

#488 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

I think you may be wrong. I am a collector and I prefer originals. Just can't afford them usually. MM is down to what now, $6k or so? I don't see it going much lower than $2k less than a NIB one. At that price it is getting reasonable to own both. I don't like MM THAT much though. Maybe on AFM I will be able to have both (assuming that one is next) . And same on AFM for that matter - I don't see the AFMs dropping much below $2k less than a new one, and they are already $6k or less now.

The spell is broken with MM...and in the near future, another classic B/W title (or Capcom)... And then another...and another. Lather, rinse, yada.

With every new game Stern, PPS and JJP release the price on MM will depreciate just a little more. The price on most games will keep depreciating....why not MM? MM is no longer a special case. It is now squarely in the crosshairs of a level playing field. That last sentence doesn't really make sense, but I like the sound of it. Kinda like some of Paul McCartney song lyrics.

#489 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

Oh yeah noodle this one - if PPS has Stern make BBB , what will happen to the value of the Capcom BBB ? Nothing, nada, zero, zip. They will still be $25,000 - $40,000. Why is that different than the current situation? Well they only made less than 12 of them and maybe 8 are left. Remaking it will not affect their value at all IMHO. The 8 guys that have one of those originals paid crazy money for it and to get it out of their hands requires a special collector with that same kind of cash.

You're reasoning from the beginning on all the remake talk was faulty, but it just jumped the shark. If PPS remakes BBB there is no freaking way the MARKET on originals is that high. Wait for the right buyer, you might sell one for that....but that is a major difference. Hell, f*ck you money might have paid $100k today for an original BBB if the remake had never happened. But it did....and even in anemic production numbers it very much impacted the "value" of the originals. With another 1000 in the market the originals are not that big of a deal anymore. And if it IS still a big deal to some people, they probably have small members.

#490 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

There is the problem, you are assuming...
All evidence would say that MMR WILL have issues. This is especially true since it is a completely new and untested board set of surface mount parts that has been poorly engineered to be under the pf where ti will get dirtier and experience more stress/vibration.
B/W games had issues, Stern games obviously have issues (heck, we have had to repair the trough opto boards twice already on a bradn new STpro), WOZ has had issues, every game maker has issues.
I will take original with known issues that I can easily work on (not surface mount and I own other games that I can swap parts with to troubleshoot) plus the harder pfs (mirco stuff seems much softer to me than the old wood in old games) with better colors over the unknown and new of MMR. When (not if) MMR has its first issue watch and see what happens. You will surely have 1000 MMR owners trying to protect their overpriced "investment" just like happens with every new SternLE that comes out the door. Reality will set in after games are delivere and issues arise.
If by some miricale MMR has no issues EVER, then it could possibly suplant the demand of originals, but evidence of the past woudl suggest that wont happen.

You can't really believe this?

#491 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

No. I want to keep MM in my collection. Wouldn't make sense for me to sell my MM for less than the cost of an MMR and, since I don't think MMR will be substantially better than a PNIB/HUO MM, it wouldn't make sense to sell my MM unless is was enough above $8k to make it worthwhile.

I get a thumbs down for saying I won't take $7k for my machine? Don't understand that ...

#492 5 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

I get a thumbs down for saying I won't take $7k for my machine? Don't understand that ...

Consider the source!!

Seriously...especially in this case...CONSIDER THE SOURCE!

#493 5 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

If PPS remakes BBB there is no freaking way the MARKET on originals is that high.

It's still a numbers game. There are what, ~10 BBB originals out there? All it takes is a handful of people who want an original and one of the owners to buckle on a sweet offer. The sweet offers will probably be lower and/or dry up somewhat...but all it takes is 1 buyer and 1 seller in the "Rare Games Collection" world.

#494 5 years ago

TFA > you can't really beleive that MMR will come out flawless with no issues???

#495 5 years ago

I absolutely believe it will be flawless....stay positive my friends and thirsty...

#496 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

TFA > you can't really beleive that MMR will come out flawless with no issues???

I believe MMr will be the first flawless pin ever made….OMG are you serious? Back to life.

#497 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

TFA > you can't really beleive that MMR will come out flawless with no issues???

I believe that like my other new games vs old, that what issues arise there will be parts and support. More importantly its usually easier to fix, even if swapping out a board.

No way for any price would I buy an old box when brand new with new technology is available. And while I truly dont want to insult you its hilarious to stay with old because of fear of new. Great grand pa ish...

How is getting the stock news over ticker tape working out for you.

#498 5 years ago

says the guy being a remake of a over 20 year old design...

glad you think that 1 year from delivery PPS will be giving out free boards in the case that they fail...
If an original MM fails in some way it is usually a simple and cheap fix that anyone with reasonable skills can fix.

With MMR the only option may be infact to switch out a faulty board since many people can't do surface mount.

#499 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

says the guy being a remake of a over 20 year old design...
glad you think that 1 year from delivery PPS will be giving out free boards in the case that they fail...
If an original MM fails in some way it is usually a simple and cheap fix that anyone with reasonable skills can fix.
With MMR the only option may be infact to switch out a faulty board since many people can't do surface mount.

Or assuming that they have the skills to diagnose the problem in the first place, simply pay a technician to perform the surface mount.

#500 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

says the guy being a remake of a over 20 year old design...
glad you think that 1 year from delivery PPS will be giving out free boards in the case that they fail...
If an original MM fails in some way it is usually a simple and cheap fix that anyone with reasonable skills can fix.
With MMR the only option may be infact to switch out a faulty board since many people can't do surface mount.

omg. give it a break.

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