thanks heaps pinsanity - can see them now and got my eye on one specifically and a few others out of curiousity
(Topic ID: 275641)
Windermere, FL
Quoted from KevinCPR:All playfields from the last ~2 years at CPR are digital print
I realize precise dates don't matter to the larger point you are trying to make, but just for the record, CPR's run of screenprinted Sorcerer playfields shipped in the fall of 2019. Maybe those were the final screenprinted playfields CPR made?
Quoted from fosaisu:CPR's run of screenprinted Sorcerer playfields shipped in the fall of 2019. Maybe those were the final screenprinted playfields CPR made?
The last two years have been a transition period for the playfield runs. That's why I put "~2" instead of a 2. As we transitioned, a few were screened, most were digital. Meteor was the final silkscreened playfield we did, actually.
As of Meteor, January 2020, all runs have been exclusively digital. Going forward, all of them will continue to be. Even when all those Ebay listed playfield titles come back as stocked re-releases in the future. Hopefully this is clearer.
Might be a dumb question but I always wondered why nobody offers a replacement play field with "all" the play field holes drilled out? If you're sure about the quality of the product then why not do it? For the prices for a new PF it should be plug and play. I would have to imagine it wouldn't tie up a CNC machine up for that much longer right? Thanks for any light you can shed on that 
Quoted from CLEllison:Might be a dumb question but I always wondered why nobody offers a replacement play field with "all" the play field holes drilled out?
If you're talking about them just being "dimpled" instead of drilled, I prefer it that way. I've swapped several CPR and NOS PF's. While in both cases 90% of the dimples are spot on, there can be issues. I've learned the hard way to just install a single screw or bolt on kick-out assemblies, slingshots etc. CPR is actively buying game used PF's to ensure the dimpling is as close as possible because even NOS PF's weren't always correct which they initially used.
Quoted from TheLaw:Metal lane guides are not even dimpled a lotbof the time as well
I had one where after fully assembling it the 1st ball up the shooter lane got stuck because a pre-dimpled lane guide was off.
Try swapping a completely undimpled PF, got a Xenon like that in 2001, long before repro's were available. Had to make quadrant sheets with clear plastic film to locate everyone. Horrible. Well over 100 hours in that one.
Keep this in mind people for those who nit pick CPR's offerings, they changed the landscape of restoring a game.
Before CPR, I would have have to buy 2-3 of the same title (games were a lot cheaper then), build one nice "keeper" from the different PF's, BG's and plastics. Then sell off the others with the lesser parts on them. I'd search for NOS parts at shows. My Xenon PF was found in Germany. It had a scratch near a slingshot. Bought it on eBay (2001) and had it shipped to a restorer who did the touch ups and cleared it. Then shipped to me. In those many months when I got it, it was warped 3/4" from corner to corner. Also picked a totally stripped Xenon just for dimpling, another complete for parts for the swap so I could keep playing mine. Spent many hours drilling it, installed rails and it was still warped to hell. Got frustrated and stuck it under my pool table and didn't touch it for many years. When I pulled it out it had gotten straight, rails and time did it.
Bottom line is I had several $100's more in that PF then the 1st CPR repro release plus many hours dimpling it.
We have it made now bringing classic games back to life.
The Fathom just passed 1K. I'd love a Fathom and considered buying this PF. But with a production run of 3500 worldwide, maybe 2.5K or less are left. Finding a unrestored Fathom that needs a PF is damn near impossible. People don't sell them cause it's such a good game. Same with FG although with 10K produced they pop up now and then. I finally got a reasonably priced one after 2 years of looking. Even EBD with 3 versions is drying up in the "project" condition. Same with Centaur,
Quoted from tomdrum:Before CPR, I would have have to buy 2-3 of the same title (games were a lot cheaper then), build one nice "keeper" from the different PF's, BG's and plastics. Then sell off the others with the lesser parts on them.
i think i may have bought a game from you! 
Quoted from bigehrl:i think i may have bought a game from you!
Quite possible. I have sold my share over the last 20 years.
Sydney
Quoted from tomdrum:The Fathom just passed 1K. I'd love a Fathom and considered buying this PF. But with a production run of 3500 worldwide, maybe 2.5K or less are left. Finding a unrestored Fathom that needs a PF is damn near impossible. People don't sell them cause it's such a good game. Same with FG although with 10K produced they pop up now and then. I finally got a reasonably priced one after 2 years of looking. Even EBD with 3 versions is drying up in the "project" condition. Same with Centaur,
What’s the story with the different colours on Fathom pf’s. My original is much more green than this cpr one. Is it just age changing the colour?
Quoted from cooked71:What’s the story with the different colours on Fathom pf’s. My original is much more green than this cpr one. Is it just age changing the colour?
Bally used several PF suppliers back in the day. Plus internet pics never look correct. Age usually dulls colors, never enhances them.
Quoted from cooked71:What’s the story with the different colours on Fathom pf’s. My original is much more green than this cpr one.
This has been a common question since 2004. Yes, the colors on nearly all Fathom playfields have shifted so badly over the last 40 years. The greeny-looking playfields of today are simply the wrong colors now. Most forget that Fathom is a blue-based game... not green.
People were shocked when they saw the first Fathom repro playfields back in 2004. Each specific Pantone color was noted on the original factory films - and printed as such. So the resulting look was exactly what Bally intended, and how the games looked NIB back in 1981. It's amazing what decades of yellowing can do to a playfield (yellow + blue = green).
I dug out an old comparison pic that used to be on our web site over a decade ago:
Quoted from KevinCPR:I dug out an old comparison pic that used to be on our web site over a decade ago:
What a difference. Thanks for posting.
Quoted from cooked71:Another newb question.....are cpr pf’s completely drilled and dimpled on both sides? I’ve only swapped a Mirco (i think it was Mirco - AFM) and a JJP pf swap which were both pre drilled and dimpled.
Yes
Quoted from cooked71:Another newb question.....are cpr pf’s completely drilled and dimpled on both sides? I’ve only swapped a Mirco (i think it was Mirco - AFM) and a JJP pf swap which were both pre drilled and dimpled.
for a bit more clarity and some important protips...
While they are drilled and dimpled, I am yet to find a pf (from anyone) that does not have an incorrect drill or dimple.
I have done quite a few pf swaps and in all cases you need to take your time and check/double check all placement. Some things have been way off and are obvious errors (it happens... but they will always claim it is normal variance). Just measure and fix as needed. CPR is still BY FAR the best in the business (it is not even close to be honest).
Also worth mention that CPR topside holes and dimples are commonly filled in with ink and clear so can be completely buried and need to be measure in some cases. They are there, but can be shallow and then filled.
Just need to remember, there is no such thing as a perfect pf. Be happy for what we have and thankful to CPR for having the best product out there (despite me still being pissed that they completely biffed the last screen printed pf; Meteor; by completely forgetting a layer of text )
Quoted from KevinCPR:This has been a common question since 2004. Yes, the colors on nearly all Fathom playfields have shifted so badly over the last 40 years. The greeny-looking playfields of today are simply the wrong colors now. Most forget that Fathom is a blue-based game... not green.
People were shocked when they saw the first Fathom repro playfields back in 2004. Each specific Pantone color was noted on the original factory films - and printed as such. So the resulting look was exactly what Bally intended, and how the games looked NIB back in 1981. It's amazing what decades of yellowing can do to a playfield (yellow + blue = green).
I dug out an old comparison pic that used to be on our web site over a decade ago:
[quoted image]
I totally disagree
I’ll leave it at that!
Quoted from freddy:I totally disagree
You're disagreeing with Bally's actual Pantone colors, written on each original factory film? That's ballsy 
Quoted from yancy:Yeah, you can't "disagree" with factory pantone colors. You're just wrong. If you like it wrong, that's fine.
I would say he technically is disagreeing with what was written on some old notes and nobody really knows what they actually used to print with...
We also know there is tremendous variation back in the day, so nobody was very precise in their mixing back then either.
Personally I dont care if Fathom is different because it looks way better in Blue to me.
Quoted from Whysnow:I would say he technically is disagreeing with what was written on some old notes and nobody really knows what they actually used to print with
But that's the thing... they aren't some kind of random "old notes" found in a drawer somewhere. They are the original factory film positives, with the information included right on them. Which is what the screen printers followed. I could go to storage and drag out the tube with the Fathom films, and take pictures of the notations on every layer, but that's getting a bit overkill for this thread.
I can, however, direct people back to the debate about the green we used on Addams Family playfields... which some would just not accept... and 2 years ago I did take pix of the original green film positive and posted it here. Plus the Pantone swatch book. Plus the actual lab swatch of the ink we used. Oddly enough, some were still not in agreement. LOL
But that is what you find on the original films. The actual layer of the artwork itself, the number (print order) of layer in the color stack, and the name of the color you are supposed to use (Pantone/PMS - same thing). Printing any colors other than those would be... simply wrong. The original films are judge, jury, and executioner. So we DO actually know what colors were intended. There is no debate to be had over colors, if you have the complete original film set. Which for many titles over the years, we were lucky to get.
Quoted from zahner:Here is my far from perfect, but original Fathom PF. I’m lucky since it does not suggest much in the way of color shift. Have thought about a new PF, but still happy with my trusty beater.
[quoted image]
Much more blue.
Such an awesome game with any payfield.
Quoted from KevinCPR:But that's the thing... they aren't some kind of random "old notes" found in a drawer somewhere. They are the original factory film positives, with the information included right on them. Which is what the screen printers followed. I could go to storage and drag out the tube with the Fathom films, and take pictures of the notations on every layer, but that's getting a bit overkill for this thread.
I can, however, direct people back to the debate about the green we used on Addams Family playfields... which some would just not accept... and 2 years ago I did take pix of the original green film positive and posted it here. Plus the Pantone swatch book. Plus the actual lab swatch of the ink we used. Oddly enough, some were still not in agreement. LOL
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cpr-taf-addams-family-playfield-announced/page/8#post-3975234
But that is what you find on the original films. The actual layer of the artwork itself, the number (print order) of layer in the color stack, and the name of the color you are supposed to use (Pantone/PMS - same thing). Printing any colors other than those would be... simply wrong. The original films are judge, jury, and executioner. So we DO actually know what colors were intended. There is no debate to be had over colors, if you have the complete original film set. Which for many titles over the years, we were lucky to get.
You are making the assumption that those notes were followed , no changes at last minute, etc...
Reality is that you followed the notes you had.
Reality is that the colors on fathom are all over the place. CPR are great, but also look nothing like anyone has ever seen or remembers. Yellowing cleat? Loss or memory? Does not really matter was the point.
Nobody knows 100% unless you were the screen printer back in the day that did the work.
Again, CPR blue looks great.
Quoted from ToucanF16:Grading would be nice. However, I’ve learned throughout the years CPR grading is inconsistent. It would be nice to have much more detailed pictures of each playfield though.
I'd sure like to think Kevin would have cherry picked the best. I would have....
Kitchener, ON
Quoted from Whysnow:You are making the assumption that those notes were followed , no changes at last minute, etc...
And you’re making the assumption that the notes were not followed. The difference here is you’re going on your intuition, He’s going by the actual documentation. Who’s more right? Well in this case, my vote goes to the guy with documentation
Quoted from Luckydogg420:And you’re making the assumption that the notes were not followed. The difference here is you’re going on your intuition, He’s going by the actual documentation. Who’s more right? Well in this case, my vote goes to the guy with documentation
Nah, I am going off the opinion of years and years of pinheads that all say Fathom was never that blue.
I personally played fathom in the early 90s and don’t remember that blue.
I also own tons of bally games from early 80s and none have yellowed clear to the level it would take to change that blue hue to the green we all know.
Reality is that screening, ink composition, technique was all different 40 years ago. All those things likely contribute to why consistently we see different reproduction colors than what old games had.
Again, reality is... the blue looks better. That is what matters.
Quoted from Whysnow:Nah, I am going off the opinion of years and years of pinheads that all say Fathom was never that blue.
I'll beat the dead horse one last time. LOL
Look at the flyer. Studio shots of the game in 1980. There is your time machine. It's a blue game. Now the flyer photography is definitely funky looking a bit, because the oldschool RGB-looking offset printing from the 80's is extremely oversaturated and high contrast... but regardless of that, it's obvious the game wasn't seafoam greeny. No way.
Also look at the pop bumper caps.
Also look at the lanes covers.
Also look at the drop targets.
Also look at the apron.
Also look at the cab paint.
Also look at the rails paint.
Also look at the backglass color scheme.
Even the "matching" text color on the flyer for the company logo and address.
Quoted from Whysnow:Again, reality is... the blue looks better. That is what matters.
Amen.
Quoted from Whysnow:You are making the assumption that those notes were followed , no changes at last minute, etc...
Reality is that you followed the notes you had.
Reality is that the colors on fathom are all over the place. CPR are great, but also look nothing like anyone has ever seen or remembers. Yellowing cleat? Loss or memory? Does not really matter was the point.
Nobody knows 100% unless you were the screen printer back in the day that did the work.
Again, CPR blue looks great.
This exactly! 
Quoted from KevinCPR:I'll beat the dead horse one last time. LOL
Look at the flyer. Studio shots of the game in 1980. There is your time machine. It's a blue game. Now the flyer photography is definitely funky looking a bit, because the oldschool RGB-looking offset printing from the 80's is extremely oversaturated and high contrast... but regardless of that, it's obvious the game wasn't seafoam greeny. No way.
Also look at the pop bumper caps.
Also look at the lanes covers.
Also look at the drop targets.
Also look at the apron.
Also look at the cab paint.
Also look at the rails paint.
Also look at the backglass color scheme.
Even the "matching" text color on the flyer for the company logo and address.Amen.
[quoted image]
Printers ink!
Much like paint chips at MAB not exactly like what’s in the can!
Quoted from bigehrl:kevincpr have you considered changing CPR's business model to only producing products that meet the specifications based on what Whysnow remembers from 30 years ago? Could be gold! Though he may remember it as more bronze.
I should have known it was Hilton. Lol
Not pins, but I can tell you that in 40 years of guitar dealing that some guitars fade/change to completely new/alternate colors and others don't.
There are so many factors involved in why this happens that it is just plain silly. Not the least being that not all pieces of wood react similarly to stains/inks/paints and dyes.
Quoted from guitarded:some guitars fade/change to completely new/alternate colors and others don't.
Exactly. Any personal anecdotes related to other machines from the same era holding their colors, has nothing to do with what may happen to a particular individual title on it's own. Heck, even if the Bally games produced just before Fathom, and right after Fathom never color shifted one bit. Not the point. That isn't evidence Fathom didn't. Because Fathom certainly DID. And badly.
I think it has to do with the specific blue pigments at the time, used in those particular blue mixes. Right at the same time, Stern's SEA WITCH (copycat of Fathom) suffered the *exact same* color shifts to it's blues. Widely seen today, almost all Sea Witch's suffer from it. You can go back to the Stern flyer on those too. Same blue themed starting point. Same issue. Same 40 years of color shifts to gross greens, seafoams, and teals on the playfield - while the plastics, glass, cabinet, etc all essentially retained their blues. However, there are some decent survived Sea Witch playfield examples today that still lean to the blue scheme. Even looking at IPDB pictures, or Googling "Stern Sea Witch playfield" the degree of color shifts is far and wide.
Quoted from KevinCPR:After much thought, I've decided to sell (almost) my entire personal stash of legacy CPR playfields.
Can buyers get the standard $100 bundle plastic sets with a PF purchase? You can add the cost to shipping charge.
Quoted from tomdrum:All those PF end in 5-6 hours. Will be interesting to see where they end up.
How many end with zero bids is my question.
Quoted from Whysnow:How many end with zero bids is my question.
I was asking myself the same thing. But i think they will all sell. 5 day auction will come down to the last 5 mins. But we shall see!
Quoted from Completist:I was asking myself the same thing. But i think they will all sell. 5 day auction will come down to the last 5 mins. But we shall see!
Yeah eBay is all about the snipe bid
Quoted from Whysnow:Yeah eBay is all about the snipe bid
Of course it is. Why start a bidding war, put you max in in the last 3 seconds and see if you win.
Quoted from Completist:But i think they will all sell.
I think not. But we'll see.
Quoted from Whysnow:Yeah eBay is all about the snipe bid
Definitely going to be an advantage for the pacific time zone people. I’m not staying up late for that.
Quoted from Clnilsen:Definitely going to be an advantage for the pacific time zone people. I’m not staying up late for that.
Auctionsniper works quite well. Bid your max and wake up to the results. Oh, avoid the EBD I want that one. 
Quoted from tomdrum:Auctionsniper works quite well. Bid your max and wake up to the results. Oh, avoid the EBD I want that one.
Quite all right - no ebd for me
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