(Topic ID: 322732)

An early Match

By mojonitro

64 days ago


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  • 26 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 60 days ago by paulace
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SS PU (resized).JPG
PU O switch (resized).jpg
PU Home rivet (resized).jpeg
Player Unit Home (resized).jpeg
SS PU P4B (resized).jpg
SS PU (resized).JPG
pasted_image (resized).png

#1 64 days ago

I'm working on a Gottlieb Super Soccer. The match unit lights up one ball early. If I'm on 4 player mode, the match lights up after the last ball on Player 3. If I'm on 3 player mode, the last ball on Player 2. 2 player, last ball on Player 1. 1 player, after Ball 4.
Once the match its lit, it doesn't change during the last ball. If it matches up with a score, it awards a game.
I feel like this is a really simple thing, and I'm making it complicated. I've stared at it too long. Thanks in advance for any help.
Jim

#2 64 days ago

Sounds like your XB relay is energizing too early. Is your player unit rotated one rivet too far?

#3 63 days ago

I think the player unit is correct, because it counts players and ball #s correctly. If it was off a rivet, those would be out of synch, wouldn't they?
I'll check out the XB relay, though. Thanks!
Jim

#4 63 days ago

The innards of the player unit handle a lot of the logic, but the outer bakelite disc could be incorrectly adjusted (via the three screws holding the disc on) so it is sitting on the wrong set of rivets vs. where it should be given where the switches and cogs inside are positioned. Not sure if match light is activated by that disc though.

#5 63 days ago

Yes, the Last Ball (XB) relay that enables the match lights is itself controlled by the Player Unit wiper and disk

pasted_image (resized).png
#6 63 days ago

If you switch the game to 3 ball play, does the problem still exist?

#7 62 days ago

I went through the XB relay, and the switches seem OK. They all have good gaps and scrub as they close.
I was wrong in my original post though. The match number DOES change as you play the last ball.
The match feature works and awards games.
I'll double check the player unit and try it on 3 ball today. Thanks again!
Jim

#8 62 days ago

Yeah, the match number should change while you play since the F relay controls which match number is lit. Every time the F relay gets a pulse to fire, it should change the match number.

The question is why is the XB relay coming on early. It sounds like the XB relay works fine, it's just being turned on too early - so why is that happening - what controls the XB relay? From the snippet that Howard showed you, you can see the XB relay is turned on by the player unit.

The XB relay shouldn't be energized until the player unit rotating platter puts the "snowshoe" contacts on rivets 8-11 for 3-ball play, or rivets 16-19 for 5-ball play.

#9 62 days ago

I just moved it to 3 ball, and the match light does come on during ball 3 on the last player of a 1,2,3 or 4 player game.
Next I'll check the rivet # vs the ball #, and see if there's a clue there.
Jim

#10 62 days ago

OK. On 5 ball mode again. At ball one, the player unit is on Rivet 1.
Ball 2, rivet 5. Ball 3, rivet 9. Ball 4, rivet 13. Ball 5, rivet 17. Game over, still rivet 17.
Jim

#11 62 days ago

I apologize for the confusion in my last post. I had the rivet numbering convention all wrong.
So, beginning of Player 1, rivet 15. Player 2, rivet 19. Player 3, rivet 23. Player 4, rivet 27. Game over, rivet 31.
Sorry, folks.
Jim

#12 62 days ago

Hi Jim,

I was looking at the schematic, and I don't think the XB relay is supposed to fire unless the player unit's snowshoe contact is on rivet 11 for a 3-player game, or rivet 19 for a 5-player game. Hopefully, someone will correct me if that's wrong.

I would use the wire colors on the schematic to identify which rivet is which. Maybe someone out there can post a photo of their player unit and show you which rivet the snowshoes should be on when the game ends.

#13 62 days ago

paulace, that's part of my problem with this machine. It's led a hard life, and the wire colors are all pretty much washed out. I can't confirm 10% of the wire colors.
The Goat Shed had a great video on Player Units. That's where I got straightened out on the numbering convention for the rivets.
They referenced a site called Imming's World, and a troubleshooting guide there on players units. I went through all the checks there, ands everything checked out.
I would love to see a couple good photos of a Super Soccer player unit, to assure I haven't got something screwy with the wiring.
Jim

#14 62 days ago

I know, sussing out the wire colors is a pain on some games. Sometimes a really bright light or taking a digital photo with flash and then blowing it up on a computer screen helps me.

You know, I wonder if a short between the WH-BL and WH-OR wires in the player unit could cause this problem? Or if PB4 wasn't opening...?
SS PU (resized).JPG

#15 62 days ago

I don't know why they called that switch PB4 on the schematic, they usually would call it P4B:

SS PU P4B (resized).jpg
#16 62 days ago

My last post was incorrect - those PB2 - PB4 switches are on the player relays. Sorry about that - had player units on the brain.

Thanks DaMoib!

And now that I see that those 3 switches are on tripped relays on the Control Bank, my suggestion of a short or closed PB4 switch doesn't make sense. I think the only purpose of those PB2-PB4 switches is to turn on the XB relay (and thus the match lights) after the last ball of the appropriate number of players. Those switches are closed as drawn for a 1-player game, then I think PB2 opens for a 2-player game, PB3 opens for a 3-player game, and by the time you've started a 4-player game, all 3 switches are open.

Sorry for the confusion - I'm figuring this out as I go along.

#17 61 days ago

I went through the player unit switches, and the ZB relay last night. Nothing obvious there.
Both SB banks look OK. This one's got me stumped.
Jim

#18 61 days ago

As a double check, here's two pics of the rivet 0 home position (Player 1, Ball 1) of the rotor. Does this agree with your player unit rotor position after reset?

PU Home rivet (resized).jpegPlayer Unit Home (resized).jpeg
#19 61 days ago

OK Jim, I'm trying to think my way through what happens when ball 4 drains (1-player game) and you go to ball 5 (ignoring bonus for now). See if this makes sense. (I've eliminated all the reset stuff just below the PU to simplify it a bit):

SS PU (resized).JPG

1. PU is on rivet 12 during ball 4 (not shown). Ball 4 drains - "Ball Return" switch closes, which turns on the O relay.

2. Switch on O starts score motor running, when Motor 4C switch closes in Ball Return Coil circuit, Return Coil kicks ball out - very shortly after that, Motor 2B opens to de-energize O relay since Ball Return switch is now open.

3. Ball closes trough switch on the way to shooter lane, energizes P relay.

4. Something starts the score motor (not sure what).

5. Since score motor is turning, Motor 1A will generate 5 pulses. Of those 5 pulses:
- pulse 1 doesn't get through to the "Add PU coil"
- pulse 2 gets through Motor 2C to "Add PU coil" and moves PU 1 position to rivet 13, which closes P2G
- pulse 3 gets through P2G / PB2 to "Add PU coil" and moves PU 1 position to rivet 14, which closes P3G
- pulse 4 gets through P3G / PB3 to "Add PU coil" and moves PU 1 position to rivet 15, which closes P4G
- pulse 5 gets through P4G / PB4 to "Add PU coil" and moves PU 1 position to rivet 16, which is Player 1/ Ball 5.

6. Motor 2B opens and relaxes the P relay. Should be ready to play Player 1, Ball 5 at this point.

O relay should be off at this time, so getting to rivet 16 should not energize the XB relay. It shouldn't energize XB until ball 5 drains and O energizes.

If this highlighted O switch below was closed, would that account your issue? Can you check that switch, Jim? Make sure that switch is open or the O relay is not still on when the PU fires 4 times to get to Ball 5.

PU O switch (resized).jpg

#20 60 days ago

Thank you both for weighing in on this.
DaMoib, yes that is the position of the Player Unit rotor at the start of a game.
paulace, I'll fire the game up and run through your analysis, then report back later this morning.
Jim

#21 60 days ago

Jim,

One other thing while you're in there - could you verify that XB is in fact activating when the match lights come on? When XB activates, a bunch of other things SHOULD be happening as well:

1)the ball return kickout should be disabled
2)the add player unit should be disabled
3)QB should get set (and ALL the things it does when set should happen)
4)Matches should be awarded every time O triggers
5)P1, P2, P3, P4 score lights should turn on together
6)The 4th player coin light should turn on
7)Match score lights should turn on

Are any of these other items occurring in addition to item 7?

#22 60 days ago

I don't know how to highlight my responses below, so please bear with me. I responded after each question or test.

Here's the results of the testing for paulace:

1. PU is on rivet 12 during ball 4 (not shown). Ball 4 drains - "Ball Return" switch closes, which turns on the O relay. YES

2. Switch on O starts score motor running, when Motor 4C switch closes in Ball Return Coil circuit, Return Coil kicks ball out - very shortly after that, Motor 2B opens to de-energize O relay since Ball Return switch is now open. YES

3. Ball closes trough switch on the way to shooter lane, energizes P relay. YES

4. Something starts the score motor (not sure what). YES IT CYCLES

5. Since score motor is turning, Motor 1A will generate 5 pulses. Of those 5 pulses:
- pulse 1 doesn't get through to the "Add PU coil"
- pulse 2 gets through Motor 2C to "Add PU coil" and moves PU 1 position to rivet 13, which closes P2G
- pulse 3 gets through P2G / PB2 to "Add PU coil" and moves PU 1 position to rivet 14, which closes P3G
- pulse 4 gets through P3G / PB3 to "Add PU coil" and moves PU 1 position to rivet 15, which closes P4G
- pulse 5 gets through P4G / PB4 to "Add PU coil" and moves PU 1 position to rivet 16, which is Player 1/ Ball 5. YES ALL THAT HAPPENS

6. Motor 2B opens and relaxes the P relay. Should be ready to play Player 1, Ball 5 at this point. YES

O relay should be off at this time, so getting to rivet 16 should not energize the XB relay. It shouldn't energize XB until ball 5 drains and O energizes.

If this highlighted O switch below was closed, would that account your issue? Can you check that switch, Jim? Make sure that switch is open or the O relay is not still on when the PU fires 4 times to get to Ball 5. THAT SWITCH IS OPEN AND THE O RELAY IS OFF

HERE's the results from testing for DaMoib:

One other thing while you're in there - could you verify that XB is in fact activating when the match lights come on? When XB activates, a bunch of other things SHOULD be happening as well: YES, XB IS ACTIVATING

1)the ball return kickout should be disabled YES IT IS DISABLED
2)the add player unit should be disabled YES, THE P RELAY IS DISABLED. IF I HIT THE START BUTTON, IT RESTARTS A GAME FROM BALL 1.
3)QB should get set (and ALL the things it does when set should happen) NO! THE QB RELAY IS NOT SET!
4)Matches should be awarded every time O triggers IT DOES NOT AWARD A MATCH UNTIL THE GAME IS OVER, AND NOT WHEN THE MATCH NUMBER LIGHTS UP.
5)P1, P2, P3, P4 score lights should turn on together NO, THIS DOEES NOT HAPPEN
6)The 4th player coin light should turn on YES, IT IS ON
7)Match score lights should turn on YES, IT IS ON. BUT IT CAN CHANGE DURING BALL 5 PLAY.

I hope this helps shed light on the issue.
Jim

#23 60 days ago

Have you cleaned and gapped that Motor 1C switch in the XB path? If it is shorted or not opening, maybe it is allowing XB to be activated at the tail end of the previous ball's cycle...

#24 60 days ago

SON OF A BISCUIT EATER!
DaMoib, you nailed it. I went through that 1C switch again, and sure enough, the closest switch to the motor was touching ever so slightly. I swear I had been through that score motor a dozen times.
I just learned a couple valuable lessons:
- NEVER assume anything
- Even though you went through them before, any switch that could affect the problem must be checked again
THANK YOU DaMoib, and paulace, for hanging in there with me through this.
Mark this one solved.
Pinside is the greatest.
Jim

#25 60 days ago

AND HowardR , post 5

#26 60 days ago

Yeah! Glad you got it figured out! Your language is pretty salty, though - Biscuit Eater!??

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