I was a late purchaser of MMr and couldn't be happier, including the support that I got for two minor problems. I wish PPS and CGC success on AFMr.

One thing that others may have already commented on is that the two remakes so far are original themes. I assume licensing is easier this way, but if these remakes are going to be limited to unlicensed themes, there don't seem to be many WMS left at the top of the rankings with prices anywhere close to $8000:
- Tales of the Arabian Nights
- Circus Voltaire

Unless licensed themes can be made to work, this may be the end of the line for WMS remakes unless prices surge further.

I'll agree that afmr will probably be a small run but if they can keep it together and get out a $8000 MBr that window isn't closing anytime soon.

There's really no reason to assume character licensing would be a problem for MB or most other 80s/90s pins (Pinball Arcade has recreated tons of licensed titles, which would pave the way for PPS if they want to go that way). The real issue is there aren't many games they can sell a bunch of at $8k. We may shortly find out if AFM is one of those.

Assuming licensing is not a problem, here's one potential estimate of the remake situation using WMS machines in the top 50:

Definitely a market at $8000 although quantity of demand is not certain (transaction prices above $8000)
- Medieval Madness
- Cactus Canyon

Probably a market at $8000 (transaction prices near or slightly below $8000)
- Attack From Mars
- Monster Bash
- Circus Voltaire
- Tales of the Arabian Nights

No way at $8000 (transaction prices below $6000)
- Twilight Zone
- Addams Family
- Indiana Jones
- Theatre of Magic
- Star Trek The Next Generation
- White Water
- Creature From the Black Lagoon
- Funhouse
- Scared Stiff
- The Shadow
- Bram Stoker's Dracula
- No Good Gofers
- Whirlwind
- Elvira and the Party Monsters
- Getaway High Speed 2
- Fish Tales
- Congo
- Road Show

If you can just tell me where all those nice Scared Stiff games below $6000 are hiding, I'd like to take one off someones hands.

I have to agree. Even though there are tons and tons of used ones available, I'd definitely buy a rerelease of TAF. Would also save me a ton on restoration costs. Ideally it'd be all LED and come with colorDMD but I wouldn't even call those dealbreakers if they weren't. Wonder how many others are on that same boat though.

The build costs of some of the listed games (TZ, Addams, Totan, CV ect) seem like they would be much higher then say AFM.

luckily PPS will just lower the price and pass the savings on to the buyer bwhahahahaa

I think there is a lot that don't care about originality and would buy a brand new game over a cheaper used version. I enjoy playing MMr just as much as MM. Old pins typically have been routed for years. Some guys just don't want the hassles of hunting for old pins and working on them. If TAF or TZ get reproduced for $8000, that's not too much more than the restored and really nice used ones. Look how well the LE's and other premium games sell. There are a lot of big spenders in the hobby who will buy any good game.

For sure. The "idea" of a NIB game is huge around here. Also factor in a lot of people buying NIB games don't know/want to deal with the used market and knowing how/wanting to fix games.
Also look at how many people buy LEs that are obviously more monies than a prem with no advantage other than what it implies.

Lightly used games usually have fewer issues than NIB....doesn't really apply to 90's games I suppose but more recent releases...

Hmmm....might be true. I mean except for the dimpling.

I can just imagine them trying to remake TZ or STTNG considering they take a donor machine and apparently strip it down to get all the parts identified and made. Either one could take a group of people a LONG time to get all the unique parts sourced sufficiently, would be one hell of an effort.

Has anyone found AFMr on site yet?

Hm,weird remake choice.
Cactus canyon with finished code would sell big numbers,almost nobody owns one/curiosity for the complete code would be a seller..
Wish them a fortune though and thank them for making it happen.
Real cool.
My business sence alarm bell rings but real cool journey.

You would get a lot of people buying it for curiosity sakes for sure, but it's no where near as good of a game as AFM.
That is an arguable 'fact' i know, but I guess another angle is AFM is a tried and true game that almost everyone knows and loves...and sales should come easy.

if they ever actually get the game out...making pinball machines is up there with landing safely on Mars for some reason. Every company misses their timeline by a year.

Actually, they get stuff to Mars on time...it's just the lack of atmosphere that is the problem.

It took what, 3 years to code the colorization for the last remake and you want finished CC code? Well good luck with that!

If it was to happen you can bet all games would be paid for and delivered before they started selling that "finished code". lol.

If rick was smart he'd make 1000 AFM and then put them up for sale and announce it

I agree that all that happened. But none of it would have been an issue for you if you didn't pre-order. Also, if pre-order money is required to get a game built at all, that's a red flag that risk is even higher, and delays are inevitable. I have yet to see a pinball pre-order that benefitted the customer. One can argue it is a necessary evil, but I don't see your temperament as a match for pre-ordering a game.

I preorder lots of stuff in my other hobbies. The difference is the other manufacturers are actually credible and while ship dates change all the time... they rarely are off by factors of four... nor are they full of shit in their communications... and don't scream incompetence repeatedly.

I was in on mmr as well... but when the bs started... I rightfully pulled away.

The things like the materials and LCD still impact standard buyers as well.

Why would anyone pre-order? Last time we saw people waiting all that time after per-ordering MMr. But since the dealers got shipments before them, other people [who didn't pre-order] got theirs first by just calling their favorite dealer.

I'll say this again as it seemed to have gotten missed or overlooked when I stated it yesterday, we didn't pre-order MMR. We put down a deposit. It was turned into a pre-order against our will and against what was originally stated at Expo. I never intended to pre-order a game. NEVER. But it ended up that way.

Not sure about 1000, max 500 imo

Second time you mentioned "materials". WTF are you talking about?

That's on your distributor. I ordered through Rick with my $1k deposit. Didn't pay a dime more until my game was on the line. Had the game in my house 3 weeks later. *shrug*.

That's the excuse that was given. It is an excuse, nothing more. I bought from an approved distributor. The distributor was told by CGC that games were going to be manufactured. CGC demanded payment from the distributor. The distributor then asked for payment from their customers, which is logical and is exactly what I'd do if I was a distributor suddenly being asked to send in over 1/2 million dollars. I sent in my payment because we were told games were going to be produced and shipped. They weren't.

I don't care if Planetary had people wait to send in payment until the game was ready to ship. Countless other people that listened to Rick state at Expo that payment would be due when games were ready to ship, and then were told to pay up only to have to wait for months. He didn't say this only applied to people that ordered from Planetary. That was given as in excuse after we were hit up for money due to being lied to about games being ready to ship. It was him covering his ass, just as how this project was his baby until problems arose. Then it was all CGC's fault and there was nothing he could do.

If Rick is reading this and has a problem with what I'm saying, I'll gladly "Put on my big boy pants" and call you to discuss it.

IMHO if Rick came to Texas Pinball Fest with a tractor trailer load of 50 AFMr's and stated there were 250 more already complete at the factor (and ready to ship on Monday morning) I think he'd sell all 300 at $6999.99. And maybe a bit higher.

Also curious what ended up happening with Twisted Pins customers.

RICK POST THE PICTURES D00D WE ARE DYING!!

Have the supposed upgrades/improvements been announced yet?

don't think so.

I don't think anything has been officially released. We are all going off a couple leaked photos.
For all we know it could be Circus Voltair.
Even the comments that started this thread from Rick could be false.

Who has seen these leaked photos? Rick mentioned them but nobody has proven they exist.

We are all going off a rumor from rick, not any leaked photos. Probably some BS marketing tactic so calm the masses while he has not yet "officially" announced the game and whatever clock that starts ticking at that time hasn't started yet.

Agreed, this is what I meant.
I know for 100% fact...it won't be Cactus Canyon. That's all I know.

The playfield printing.. for instance. The difference in components/electronics (like the delta of lighting design, etc). The 'change' in what the gold finish pitched vs delivered was...and more.. I really don't have the interest in recalling every varied detail about the game to rehash the past.. yet again.

I get you may not care about those specifics - but that doesn't change they are present.

What's the difference? You gave them money to to reserve a spot which showed them you are serious in buying. The deposit was refundable for a time, but after a certain point it became not refundable and was largely communicated as such. Spooky did the same thing.

I explained it in Post #479. Is me expecting the person selling the game to keep his word and honor what was originally said that unreasonable? Is it that hard to understand?

The terms you bring up were never mentioned or were never part of the deal. We were never told our deposit would become non-refundable and turned into a pre-order. Are my expectations really that unreasonable? Am I really that out of touch? Has the world changed so much that we can no longer expect to get what we were sold and promised? I guess so.

No recourse legally there? If you had documentation as such seems like you should've been able to get a refund no problem. People late to the game had down payments refunded without issue.

I didn't want a refund. I wanted my game and I wanted honored what was promised. That is: Payment would be due when the games were ready to ship. That didn't happen. It is that simple. It really is.

Why is this all so hard to understand? I didn't preorder. I put down a deposit. How can I better explain it? Am I not being clear? Seriously, I want to know why I'm not getting my point across. Am I unreasonable to expect the seller to honor what was promised?

I really think I should just stop responding. I don't know if I'm being trolled, or if people are purposefully being obtuse to try and rile me up, or is this just too complicated for others to understand. Maybe this is something better discussed face to face as I don't seem to be able to get the point across that we were promised one thing, and then the deal was changed.

In the words of Darth Vader, "I am altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it any further." If you understood that part of "The Empire Strikes Back" you should be able to understand my point. If not, well...maybe we can agree that ESB is the best movie of the Star Wars saga.

sorry, this statement made me think you simply wanted a refund and didn't get it. I'm not trolling...but that's what came across. So you could've got a refund, but wanted to wait for the game and then paid in full or something then they took forever to ship? That's a bummer.

I had a deposit down and they were taking too long so I got my deposit back. Your situation was different somehow apparently.

Hopefully game #2 will avoid this confusion.

Cool. Sorry if that wasn't clear. You write stuff and try to be as clear as possible. What you write makes sense to you because you understand the situation. Often it doesn't come across as you intended. Sorry for any misunderstanding, stuff like this is much easier to discuss face to face. I didn't mean our deposit suddenly became non-refundable. From my understanding I could have gotten a refund when I was asked for full payment. At the time I was asked for full payment I didn't know it would be months before my game shipped. I meant my deposit was not given with the understanding or intent that it would become a pre-order, and that I'd have to pay in full and then wait months for my game. But it ended up that way.

Did you want him to send you the game first and then you pay for it?
I dont get it.
You want the game
You pay for the game

At anytime you could have got a refund right?

I learned early on NIB experience just isnt for me, just setting yourself up for disappointment and headaches.
Bought a TRON and three weeks later they release a better one with sluts and Christmas ornaments on it.

I should have got a refund...

Yea I'll grant you that part of the process was ridiculous... the original idea was to pay a month or so before shipment, but someone really screwed up that timeline and wound up asking for full payment many months before, of which some people paid and others did not. To be clear though, a deposit is typically part of a pre-order process, but there are occasions when pre-orders do not require a deposit.

Anyway, I think we've all learned that pre-ordering a game has little to no value.

I can appreciate buying NIB from Automated Services. I give them a reasonable deposit and then two weeks before it is shipped I wire the balance. Two weeks later the pin arrives. That is reasonable to me. I hope the AFMr is delivered similarly....and SOON!

Any news? If someone has inside info please pm.

Will AFMr be at TPF for reveal?