Just replaced the FET and everything works again?

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Addendum. WARNING beware of PinballSTAR Joe. I texted him 3 times last night at 3am to shoot the sh!t and he refused to reply! I don’t have a life so why should he! If he thinks he can only work 23 hours a day he must be called out! Made me want to kick puppies! Lol. Love you Joe.

I don’t know all the reasons behind it but I will shed a little background on the whole ‘2nd owner’ thing... Part of it came to light when there was distributors who shall remain nameless was re-selling games to others who were not ‘authorized’ distributors in and out of other distributors home territories. So you had guys selling games in stock who should not of representing themselves to the public as authorized and not knowing what they were doing, not able to get parts, not able to provide service, etc to unknowing customers. Many of these unauthorized resellers were previously turned down for appointments from various companies for whatever reason - reputation, financial, territory already covered etc... I can attest I am the guy spending money on shows, doing parties, servicing customers, carrying 100,000 plus of inventory for just one company etc... and then you have some yahoo who shouldn’t be doing what he was doing, pricing under MAP, with no skin in the game for either the manufacturer or the community at large pulling the wool over unsuspecting people in the hobby - usually newbies who got taken advantage of. So... the way to prevent that was to tell people don’t buy from an unauthorized distributor because you are the 2nd true owner then... Not sure it worked but was a way to prevent distributors from doing this... There are ways to do that sort of thing responsibly - just ask a location or restoration guy that wants to sell one or two to refer thier customers to you. Some companies require us to notify them of any re-sellers under us and they have to be approved. But some always bend the rules and drop inventory off at non-authorized distributors and it leads to problems... Overall you have a new to pinball customer usually getting screwed and that’s what they want to prevent. Not have them taken advantage of when they enter the hobby - we should be nurturing and helping these folks not making a quick buck on them by lying to them. You wouldn’t want to be buying a new Ford unknowingly from a used car dealer who can’t help you after the sale... So... I’m sure there might be other reasons the companies might use this 2nd owner wording, but I wanted to shed some light when companies use this (maybe don’t enforce it) to prevent bad things from happening and to protect the customer not to screw anyone on a warranty. Don’t always thing you know everything and companies are out to get you.. it’s just true.

Meant to say it's 'just NOT true'... figured I'd peck out all that then blow the last sentence... lol

You said a lot right here. You assumed. Half the people in the world assume and then go screaming to the mountains of the new "truth" that they have discovered. And then someone pricks their balloon. And then the rant slides over into "Well, they should be doing this. And that. And more of this. And so-and-so is doing this.

It's like the idiot several months ago who was wailing bitching about how Arizona changed some of its banking laws that made harder to deposit smaller amounts of money and that it was a hit on the little guy. And he comes here screaming about the idiot lawmakers in the state of Arizona. With a little research, all it turned out to be was HIS bank was making some internal changes that affected him. I told him to change banks and have not heard from him since.

A few bad apples in the industry ruined this for everybody. We started out by releasing the P-ROC schematics and had plans to release the FPGA code, but then a few people took advantage of our generosity and used our technical information to design us out. In one case, we spent months worth of man-hours helping a designer by essentially teaching him how to engineer a full machine around our boards, and then he designed out our boards. Lesson learned. While there are some wonderful people and businesses in this industry, there are also some that will do (and are doing) everything they can to take advantage of others without remorse or compensation.

All that said, the driver output stages on our PD-16 boards are very, very simple. Anybody with enough experience to understand a board schematic should have the ability to debug and repair a FET circuit without the schematic. If a board gets damaged beyond just the FET, the time it would take to debug and repair it isn't justified when replacements are relatively inexpensive. Our switch boards are $45, and our PD-16s are $85. We're not talking about $300 node boards here.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Thanks for the response, we should probably start a different thread or move this to the Multimorphic thread but I'll just add that as an owner of games with 30 years of electronics experience I like to fix things myself, not board swap, even if it is just a $90 board. If I can replace a $5-$15 part instead I'd prefer that route every time. Now, that being said it may be that I never experience a failure of the board beyond the FET circuit but it also may come to be that these boards are no longer available and I have to fix it myself or for someone else. Punishing the whole class because of one bad student seems like the lazy was to deal with a problem, to use a metaphor (or is it simile, I don't do grammar) other than a cargument.

Ok, that shit was pretty funny. Not going to lie, I had to read that 2x xD....

I feel like we bend over backwards to help the "whole class" while also taking a few precautions (resulting from learning the hard way) to give ourselves a chance of staying in business.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

That only works if you are RICHIEWRENCH. Joe lives for his texts and calls in the middle of the night.

LTG : )

And passing off any and all problems to the manufacturers tech support people.

A good distributor is your go to guy. He can often get you going quicker than anybody.

LTG : )

As I know you and your business professionalism I will guess you won’t share the “to remain nameless” self appointed distributors but That to me is good reason to create threads on this forum. To warn others new or old who is Not out for the customers best interest honestly. I suspected there were a few Clone distributors undercutting the ones Vested to support for ill gain. As I know you won’t share publicly, would you please PM me the name (s) of these companies so I can steer clean and advise friends to do the same? Thanks Joe!

Similes use "like" or "as". Metaphors do not.

Simile: Running is like homework; a necessary evil in order to get better at something.

Metaphor: Laughter is the music of the soul.

That’s not so bad compared to the Stern boards. Sorry your game is not working, really sucks when a brand new game goes down and needs parts. Hope you get it working soon.

Please post the warranty for any manufacturer that will replace an electronics piece after 90 days. I think you’re mistaken.

What he is saying is that, for instance, Stern commonly replaces faulty electronic parts a year latter for free, even if you are the 2nd owner.

http://www.chicago-gaming.com/Brochures/CGC_Warranty_Card_Pinball.pdf

Might be others.

LTG : )

I found this old 80s campaign button in a drawer the other day.

s-l16hh00 (resized).jpg

JJP replaces some electronics for first year!

See point #2 below.

251B5F87-4B75-4D36-B114-6D3B58AA2EEA (resized).png

Where do you read that? It says 30 Days on all parts and 1 year on light boards and monitor? So basically 30 days on other boards. I will say JJP has MORE than stepped up for me on claims well outside the original warranty and as a 2nd owner though.

Click on picture, the way I read number 2 it says I/O board, Sound board, CPU board, etc are 12 months.

My apologies missed that. Love JJP even more now. Plus you get to call LTG for everything! Lol

Including the joke of the day.

LTG : )

Ok what it all comes down to from hear on out is what American Pinball decides to do when someone has an issue with a four month+ old machine. What they have in writing is not important to me but what they actually do is. I am not hear to argue about written legality, I am hear to see how a manufacturer steps up the plate for their customers. I will be watching in the months to come to see how American Pinball deals with warranties and issues that may arise.

-By the way I am petting my puppy as we speak (;

I agree with Joe, and would not name names. It speaks to his professionalism. The problem is there are plenty of these unauthorized resellers, and these are what all manufactures are trying to avoid. They are everywhere, only one manufacturer I know has virtually eliminated the resellers.

I think you are right yelobird, people of Pinside should make the effort to support authorized dealers, or at minimum be aware. Just go to the manufacturers website and review the list of companies. Links listed in alphabetical order:

American Pinball
https://www.american-pinball.com/distributors/

Chicago Gaming Co
http://www.chicago-gaming.com/dealers.php?p=24

Jersey Jack Pinball
https://www.jerseyjackpinball.com/distributors/

Stern Pinball
http://www.sternpinball.com/find-a-retailer

Greg M
Pinballpro.com

The original owner clause.
As Joe from Pinball Star points out, is to protect our Distributors as they are bound to a MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) structure.

Warranty.
We have a clearly stated 90-day original owner policy in the manual.

Warranty Start Date.
All equipment needs to be registered within 15 days of delivery, a copy of the original invoice must be provided as proof of the delivery date while registering the machine, otherwise the factory ship date is used as the warranty start date.

The Story.
Josh and I spent quite a bit of time helping the OP (Original Poster), first with the code update issue and then with the board issue, we narrowed the problem down to the coil driver board. It was my belief based on the information that I had, that the fastest way to get the OP’s game up and running was to swap boards. I informed the OP that I could send him a replacement board, all he had to do was enter a Service Ticket and register his game so I could ship out under warranty. OP registered the game and submitted a Service Ticket. At that time, I learned the game was 6 weeks outside of warranty with no other prior failures of that board or game, I informed the OP he would need to purchase the board and provided him with 3 places to buy the board.

Here are the facts.
1. Game was not registered within 15 days of delivery and there was no copy of invoice provided
2. Machine is out of warranty by 6 weeks
3. First reported issue with the machine
4. Second owner of machine (was not aware of this until Joe at Pinball Star informed me)
5. Provided OP with alternative sources for purchasing the board other than American Pinball.

As the Service Manager of American Pinball, you can expect treatment from me to be fair and honest, I will treat everyone with the same level of professionalism and courtesy. I will not play favorites and make exceptions for one and not all.

This tread has brought to life that some people place a higher value than others on their warranty. I will make it a point to start a dialogue here at American Pinball about the possibility of offering an extended warranty that would be available for anyone to buy.

If you feel either American Pinball or myself have acted carelessly or outside of the acceptable boundaries of pinball, contact me directly so I can address your concerns.

Barry Engler
Service Manager
224.422.3191
[email protected]

I think i'll just stick with Jersey Jack and Stern.

First owner.

Yep, that is what it says.

Barry’s response both states the facts and what American Pinball will do. No problem from my perspective. However, in working with Stern over the years they have more than taken care of me on similar issues. They apply some flexibility based on the situation.

Let me restate I have no problem with American Pinball policy - it is their company and choice.

However my business will go to Stern who applies flexibility as first or second owner.

Truthfully, I never had to deal with anyone of them because my games have performed well. Now I know I am setting myself for an issue there... ugh... knock on wood.

Here is a real life example of how some other companies in the market handle things:

I buy a NIB Transformers LE, 2 years after the game came out.

I don't buy it from any authorized vendor, just from a clod who bought 4 of them, thinking they would go up in value like Tron LE did.

When I unbox it, I find that it must be an early production and does not have the plastic ball trap guards that came latter with the game.

I call my local distributor, and he says you have to get them directly from Stern.

I call Stern, to order a set of the guards:

Vid: Hey, I bought a NIB Transformers yesterday...
Stern: [interrupting] That's a fun game, I still play it every day.
V: But, when I set it up this morning, I noticed that it does not have the ball trap guards under the ......
S: Hmmmmm, yeah, we added those [typing in the computer] after some had shipped.....yep got it!
V: Got any in stock?
S: Sure, can I get you to read me off the serial number of the game? What's your address?
V: It's 666 Raven Lane....
S: Excellent! Oh wait....I'm sorry UPS already went out today....Uh, can I get out to you tomorrow?
V: That's fine, do you need my CC number?
S: Nope. The serial is all we need.
V: Wow, that's cool.
S: Thank you sir.

Now that is a company that wants more of my business. No faxing in the invoice, no worrying about that I did not buy it from an authorized dealer, no worrying that I'm the 2nd owner, no trying to put obstacles in my way. Not even a "REALLY??? You just unboxed a 2 year old game that you bought yesterday?????"

-

Or one day I can't fix my 15 year old MESA Boogie bass amp. The tone controls just don't seem to be responding.

MESA: Good afternoon, Mike from tech here!
Vid: Hey I've got a MESA 400+ and even though all the components seem good, the tone circuit seems to have almost no effect.
M: Hmmmm, do you have the schematic?
V: No, I searched the net, but could not find that exact same model.
M: Got a fax?
V: Yes, its .....
M: OK, I'm going to fax you the schematic, we don't seem to have it in digital form anywhere in our files.
V: It's an odd amp for sure.
M: Yeah, I'll get this scanned and put up in few days. Anyway, what I guess is that you are missing the .00000047 cap from the .....
V: I'm looking right now and I don't see it at all.
M: You did not need it when the amp was new, but as all the component values drifted over the years, you need it.
V: Gotcha. I don't even see anyplace online that still has that part.
M: I'm going to send it to you.
V: Can I also buy the standby rocker switch, mine is cracked.
M: Sure.
V: And a dozen of the black case screws with the odd heads, mine looks like it got one of each screw ever made...
M: LOL, yep, seen that before.
V: What's my total?
M: Nothing. You are all set....Boogie is not here to nickel/dime you. What is it like $10 worth of parts? A $200 set of tubes is going to be a different story....

I've told the above stories probably 100 times.

You can't buy goodwill like that.
ind;l;ex (resized).jpg

95 beats the shit out of what stern charges. I would just buy the board.

Carument in 3..2..1..
Bought a brand new Chevy with Quad 4 engine. Forget how long the warranty was but a couple years. Head blew on the car 3 months out of warranty. Took it to my dealer and sure enough, they put a whole new engine in it. Since then I've bought 2 new cars and my wife bought one from them.
What does Chevy and Stern both have in common. Years of experience and enough revenue to cover the loss. Can American Pinball really afford to cover out of warranty damage? Being new, can they really afford "not" to cover out of warranty damage that is so close? I'm pretty sure we are going to start seeing extended warrant's from them soon.

Same thing I keep thinking, pretty funny really.

Car manufacturers have to be extra careful about covering things that are common / known cataclysmic failures like that because the federal government and consumer agencies are on them like stink on shit because of the amount of money involved.

As with most things I've seen car dealers and manufacturers go to both sides of this issue, I had a Ford dealer refuse to replace an ignition key that the chip had fallen out of (the little door somehow fell off and the chip went with it) even though it was basically the most expensive vehicle they sold at the time and was in the "bumper to bumper" warranty period. The same Ford dealer put a completely new manifold back exhaust system on my '88 Mustang 5.0 that had 120K miles on it.

Quit while you’re behind.

Will you be sharing your findings and conclusions monthly? I for one would appreciate regular updates.

I know what he’s saying. He’s saying other companies have longer warranties. Which ones?

Stern is often magnanimous in their support. I have benefitted a lot from Stern and my distro JJ, even when out of warranty. But their warranty is like 90 days for nearly everything, right?

Spooky covers the entire game for 1 year.

JJP covers all the boards for 1 year.

Chicago Gaming covers all the boards for 1 year.

Stern says 9 months on display boards and 3 months on everything else, but in practice, covers the boards well past 1 year - even for the 2nd owner.

Agree with Vid on that statement. American Pinball pushing this strict warranty issue was DUMB, and brought something I was not even aware of to light. If I’m going small independent pinball, I’m still only looking at JJP and Spooky. I didn’t enjoy Houdini, but was looking forward to their next game, but now not so much. If American even try selling an extended warranty that will be total BS. FIRST OWNER, SECOND OWNER, who cares when it is SIX WEEKS outside of warranty. I bet the OP will never be buying another American Pinball game.

These machines are too expensive to get dicked around by manufacturers on.

See post 324, sterns warranty is 60 days on boards, 9 on display.

I thought Chicago had a tiered warranty with the LE and above having a longer coverage period.

This. How many future buyers would have never given the AP warranty much more than a thought, but now will shy away from AP after this situation has been on the front page for the last few days? Right or wrong, AP bungled this situation and then Barry doubled down on the fumble.

Barry asked the guy to contact the manufacturer of the board because its sourced. Do what you're asked to do, it serves more than one purpose. First, the source would never know that their boards might be a problem if they aren't told they fail unless they fail in mass and the manufacturer notifies them. Second, American can see if the manufacturer will stand behind their boards. If not, maybe American finds another source. To have American do the leg work verse the owner, the owner should have done it. If after I contacted the board maker and they told me to take a hike and I told American, they have the choice to leave the owner blowing in the wind or send them a new board. I understand the warranty bit, but for Pete sake, pick up the phone or email and the board maker. Had they replaced it, this post probably would not exist. They replace it and American gets a phone call telling them their source is aces. What's wrong with that?

What's wrong with that?

Everything.

It's not the customers fault you sourced the board. You sold the product, he bought from american not all the vendors american uses.

Can you imagine if another biz did that? I know you bought a Toyota, but we source parts from takata, talk to them. The customer shouldn't have to do the legwork.

They can absolutely stick to the letter of the law if they like, but man it affected my opinion of the company

Ok, you beat me posting by a couple seconds...

Yeah! Why should I expect to just call Honda or Toyota about the exploding Takata airbag in the car they sold me? It's a sourced part right?

When its out of warranty? All the other negative posts are from people who have gotten parts when the warranty is out and that's great for them. The company made a decision and it benefitted them and they are happy and loyal...great. Start a new post and see how many people where rejected after the warranty ended and you might get an angry mob similar to some of the people in this post. I do not believe every person who asks Stern or Jack for parts out of warranty get them and some of those folks may have been in the same boat as this person. Telling your success story is just that, your story. How many other stories are out there? People tend to forget about that. I would have made that call because American has been transparent with their strengths and weaknesses and I would not mind doing it because my part was out of warranty. I also would have called them back either way to tell them about my experience with their source, but that's me. The owner didn't mind taking the time to write his post. That time could have been used solving his problem. He chose not to make the effort, he chose to complain to the world and that's him.

You guys should really find another hobby. We are not talking about Toyota and vehicles people depend on to go to work or the doctor. We are talking about a game, a pass time. A little effort on a hobby you say you love and you can't do it...that's a laugh!

That’s what I thought. AP may want to rethink how they handle these requests in the future, but let’s not get all high and mighty on them for upholding their warranty policy on a second hand game.

And let’s stop the nonsense that Stern’s warranty is better. It isn’t, and it’s in writing.