(Topic ID: 223382)

American pinball and Pinballstar make pinball great

By jrio101

5 years ago


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  • 454 posts
  • 143 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by PtownPin
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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There are 454 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 10.
#251 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Exactly.
And then you have to worry about having the current board version.
"Wait, I have v1.1 board, are you saying that won't work???"
"Unfortunately, that game takes v2.2 or higher boards, although not higher than v4, because that's when the pinout changed...."

I’m sure OPs bitched when early SS boards starting shitting the bed too. I’m sure having a bunch of spare coils and a leaf adjustment tool was way easier at the time.

#252 5 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

My point is, if I have to learn all this board repair that you’ve known for the past 40 years, then current OPs are going to have to learn this stuff. It’s no different.

SMD components have been around for 50 years, so it's not like pinball techs are learning anything new.

But since you can't repair SMD on location, they were not a good choice for games that constantly need their components replaced.

-

It's the same with guitar amps that use tubes. On tour, every amp you see is an old tube amp.

It's not really the "vintage tone" because there are new amps with the exact same circuits done up in SMD parts.

The reason that everyone uses those old amps is that the roadies can quickly service them on the spot with just a soldering pencil.

#253 5 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

You need to change the title to correctly reflect on AP. Then you can ask to shut it down.

Would you be satisfied with this alternate title?: Buyer beware: AP adheres STRICTLY to its written warranty

I still think this is important information for buyers to have, given that the other manufacturers take a different approach and buyers may mistakenly assume that's just the way part repair/replacement is done in modern pinball.

#254 5 years ago

Pet those puppies !

001EEC00-4FB6-4D72-AA62-0D79D1E2C6BB (resized).jpeg001EEC00-4FB6-4D72-AA62-0D79D1E2C6BB (resized).jpeg

#255 5 years ago

Our PD-16 boards use standard, through-hole, TO-220 FETs (IRL540A). FETs can die if a coil is locked on; so we made them through-hole so they're easy to replace. Any logic upstream of the FET should only die if a serious power event happens (ie. short to high voltage). The rarity of that happening justifies the use of [less expensive to manufacture] SMD parts.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

#256 5 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

I’m sure OPs bitched when early SS boards starting shitting the bed too. I’m sure having a bunch of spare coils and a leaf adjustment tool was way easier at the time.

When us Ops started to transition over to SS, we were already familiar with on-location board work from the jukeboxes and even early video games like Pong.

If games would have required us to buy new boards every time they broke down, pinball would have been over in the 70s

#257 5 years ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Our PD-16 boards use standard, through-hole, TO-220 FETs (IRL540A). FETs can die if a coil is locked on; so we made them through-hole so they're easy to replace. Any logic upstream of the FET should only die if a serious power event happens (ie. short to high voltage). The rarity of that happening justifies the use of [less expensive to manufacture] SMD parts.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Gerry,

Thank you for your prompt response!

Now, assuming the OP does not have a SMD rework station, how much will you guys charge to repair his blown board so he can have a spare on hand?

#258 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

SMD components have been around for 50 years, so it's not like pinball techs are learning anything new.
But since you can't repair SMD on location, they were not a good choice for games that constantly need their components replaced.
-
It's the same with guitar amps that use tubes. On tour, every amp you see is an old tube amp.
It's not really the "vintage tone" because there are new amps with the exact same circuits done up in SMD parts.
The reason that everyone uses those old amps is that the roadies can quickly service them on the spot with just a soldering pencil.

A couple of points, the main driver transistors on the P-ROC boards are through hole T0-220 package just like the standard TIPs that are used in most B/W games. Even if they were surface mount, like the ones on that AllTek board you have pictured any tech worth his soldering iron should be able to change one of those in the field without a hot air reflow station: lift one leg at a time then get the tab hot and pull it off.

Now I.C.s are a different story, but even so small ones can be pulled and replaced in the field with a standard soldering iron; create a big solder bridge and work one side to the other, clean off old solder and install new one.

Your points about there being a lot of different components compared to "back in the day" is very valid but the train has left the station and I don't think it's coming back. At least Houdini uses P-Roc boards so it's not some complete one-off that you'd have to know and have parts / boards for though and if more machines are made with this platform that should be better for owners and operators long term.

#259 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Now, assuming the OP does not have a SMD rework station, how much will you guys charge to repair his blown board so he can have a spare on hand?

I see the word "pre-driver" being called out as the problem here, but I suspect that's just the wrong word being used. It's more than likely just the FET, which is through-hole. Any standard PCB repair person could swap one out in minutes. I highly recommend pinside user borygard for all of your circuit board repairs.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

#260 5 years ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

I see the word "pre-driver" being called out as the problem here, but I suspect that's just the wrong word being used. It's more than likely just the FET, which is through-hole. Any standard PCB repair person could swap one out in minutes. I highly recommend pinside user borygard for all of your circuit board repairs.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Interesting.

So if that's the case, then the OP sure did not need to buy that 2nd board - yikes.

Again, thanks for the prompt reply!

#261 5 years ago

Wish Acura built Pinball machines, front struts crapped out on my 5yr old Acura, $1k each + labor..... Vehicle out of factory warranty (I have additional 4yr/50k, but doesn't cover struts)....Acura covered them, zero charge, zero hassle...

#262 5 years ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

Now I.C.s are a different story, but even so small ones can be pulled and replaced in the field with a standard soldering iron; create a big solder bridge and work one side to the other, clean off old solder and install new one.

I can't even imagine how badly a SMD IC on-site repair would go from the average pin tech. lol

Quoted from bobukcat:

Your points about there being a lot of different components compared to "back in the day" is very valid but the train has left the station and I don't think it's coming back.

If pinball games can't be serviced on-site, they will die off.

Dark games don't make money, and earn less money when they are finally brought back online. "Hey want to play Sloth King?", "No that thing is always broken...."

#263 5 years ago
Quoted from Irishbastard:

Wish Acura built Pinball machines, front struts crapped out on my 5yr old Acura, $1k each + labor..... Vehicle out of factory warranty (I have additional 4yr/50k, but doesn't cover struts)....Acura covered them, zero charge, zero hassle...

Was there a TSB on them?

#264 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

Pet those puppies !

Prada chest rub commencing.

LTG : )

Pradarub (resized).jpgPradarub (resized).jpg
#265 5 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Prada chest rub commencing.

Is your other dog named Gucci?

#266 5 years ago
ibreak.gifibreak.gif
#267 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I can't even imagine how badly a SMD IC on-site repair would go from the average pin tech. lol

If pinball games can't be serviced on-site, they will die off.
Dark games don't make money, and earn less money when they are finally brought back online. "Hey want to play Sloth King?", "No that thing is always broken...."

Are you working on that tube-powered Pinball game?

#268 5 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Is your other dog named Gucci?

I only have one. she came with a name. It really fits her.

LTG : )

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#269 5 years ago

This little guy makes me want to get into the doggie day care biz.

Screen Shot 2018-08-17 at 1.26.38 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2018-08-17 at 1.26.38 PM (resized).png

#270 5 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

I only have one. she came with a name. It really fits her.
LTG : )[quoted image]

Proof LTG has a warm mushy side! lol Plus she is the best arcade watch dog and riff raff chaser.

#271 5 years ago

Joe Newhart is the best distributor, EVER!

A while back, I was speaking with him about the purchase of a NIB pin. I hadn't committed to buying it from him, when a low play HUO came up for sale, locally to me, at a very fair price.

I called Joe to explain and his response was, and I quote: 'This is a no brainer. You must go for the HUO one and if you experience any issues with it whatsoever, call me and I will help you out'.

Now that is a class act, not to mention the charities that I know Joe helps out in a big way.

Joe, they don't come any nicer or classier than you.

Roger

#272 5 years ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

Are you working on that tube-powered Pinball game?

Those are only for the cool kids in Texas.

Nixie Tube Pinball (resized).jpgNixie Tube Pinball (resized).jpg
#273 5 years ago
Quoted from jrio101:

It's not about the $95 for me. It's about a company taking care of customers.

Just curious if you're actually going to accept that check from Joe since this whole thing was clearly NOT about the money.

#274 5 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Proof LTG has a warm mushy side!

Too funny. Especially since I was told I was warm and fuzzy recently.

LTG : )

-1
#275 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

See how even though it's a surface mount board, there are empty holes next to each component to allow field repair with thru-hole parts?

Boards aren't that "wasteful with space" anymore. A 4 lead SMT device is easy to change out with heated air & a schematic. Now, if you don't have a schematic... Which you never do anymore. Exception: CGC documents parts of their games.

#276 5 years ago

I only scanned this thread but am wondering if I got this right:

The 2nd owner of a Houdini with an expired warranty is pissed because AP wouldn't replace a defective board?

I had no idea that warranties transferred to 2nd owners and were extended to people who bitch. Pretty lame to try and make a new company look bad over 95 bucks that isn't even owed to him. I am impressed with how Pinballstar handled it.

#277 5 years ago

I think the worst part about any of this is just how quickly these things are passed on to a second owner..........

#278 5 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

I think the worst part about any of this is just how quickly these things are passed on to a second owner..........

Seems Houdini is like getting a shoe that is a little tight.

Some people can't tolerate an uncomfortable shoe.

Those that can end up with a shoe that fits great once it breaks in.

#279 5 years ago
Quoted from Strummy:

I only scanned this thread but am wondering if I got this right:
The 2nd owner of a Houdini with an expired warranty is pissed because AP wouldn't replace a defective board?
I had no idea that warranties transferred to 2nd owners and were extended to people who bitch. Pretty lame to try and make a new company look bad over 95 bucks that isn't even owed to him. I am impressed with how Pinballstar handled it.

Well yeah, technically you are right. But now everyone is very well aware of the 90-day warranty and how they will handle it vs. how Stern and JJP handle it. That's a problem any savvy business owner would gladly pay $95 to make go away.

#280 5 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

Well yeah, technically you are right. But now everyone is very well aware of the 90-day warranty and how they will handle it vs. how Stern and JJP handle it. That's a problem any savvy business owner would gladly pay $95 to make go away.

Well, we know they will not extend the warranty to the second owner on a proc driver board.

#281 5 years ago

I think the overall expectation that a new company such as American Pinball be compared apples to apples with an industry giant like Stern, or even JJP isn't fair. Any new company I am sure is cash strapped as it is, and should really be given some leeway until they really start building a large stable company. Give them time, I am sure that they will have better warranties in the future.

And if we are all very honest, this is the first time I heard of Houdini having any failures. Sure I heard they had issues with the catapult when used in homes that the power fluctuated (Solar), but for a first pin to be released (as rushed as it was), its been stable and well built. I think we should very much show support to a company that did what they said they would do and did it well. Lets hope for more pins from this company.

#282 5 years ago

OK, so now I really want to know what the actual problem with the board was. OP, are you going to replace the FET like Gerry suggested and report back (or send it to someone who can do it)? Then we would at least know which part failed on the board.

Quoted from gstellenberg:

I see the word "pre-driver" being called out as the problem here, but I suspect that's just the wrong word being used. It's more than likely just the FET, which is through-hole. Any standard PCB repair person could swap one out in minutes. I highly recommend pinside user borygard for all of your circuit board repairs.

-8
#283 5 years ago

Dang a 4 month old pinball circuit board failure (regardless of 1 or 2 owners) - seems like crap Quality. Hope this a one off issue.

Don’t care about reimbursement, keep me away from AP.

#284 5 years ago
Quoted from Captain-Flint:

I think the overall expectation that a new company such as American Pinball be compared apples to apples with an industry giant like Stern, or even JJP isn't fair. Any new company I am sure is cash strapped as it is, and should really be given some leeway until they really start building a large stable company. Give them time, I am sure that they will have better warranties in the future.

I don't think so. Get enough funding that you can offer a respectable warranty. Honestly, try to offer a better warranty. You are the new kid on the block. Why should I buy from you? Apparently not for a failed board 91 days after the sale. There is the warranty that is printed and the warranty that is taken care of. Stern and JJP have a reputation for making it right. Now maybe American Pinball has one, but not the one they want.

#285 5 years ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

seems like crap Quality.

That isn't fair. Everything electronic out there is at the mercy of premature failure of electronic components. We've seen it posted right here on Pinside many times.

Any manufacturer can have a bad or substandard part get into the mix.

Main thing that is really apparent here. Who ever you buy a game from, will they help you after the sale ? Joe at Pinball Star is an obvious choice. Chris at Kingpin Games too, doesn't he double the manufacturer warranty ?

LTG : )

#286 5 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

I don't think so. Get enough funding that you can offer a respectable warranty. Honestly, try to offer a better warranty. You are the new kid on the block. Why should I buy from you? Apparently not for a failed board 91 days after the sale. There is the warranty that is printed and the warranty that is taken care of. Stern and JJP have a reputation for making it right. Now maybe American Pinball has one, but not the one they want.

Amen!

#287 5 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

Well yeah, technically you are right. But now everyone is very well aware of the 90-day warranty and how they will handle it vs. how Stern and JJP handle it. That's a problem any savvy business owner would gladly pay $95 to make go away.

I have had Stern hook me up after a warranty has expired and declined requests as well. Its all good. We choose to be in a hobby that can be costly and I am by no means a rich guy.

I do think that Stern and JJP probably have more leeway to give out some parts here and there when not warranted more so than a newer company such as AP who is trying establish themselves.

#288 5 years ago
Quoted from Captain-Flint:

I think the overall expectation that a new company such as American Pinball be compared apples to apples with an industry giant like Stern, or even JJP isn't fair. Any new company I am sure is cash strapped as it is, and should really be given some leeway until they really start building a large stable company. Give them time, I am sure that they will have better warranties in the future.

Wrote my post and sent it after you wrote this. My feelings exactly.

#289 5 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

I don't think so. Get enough funding that you can offer a respectable warranty. Honestly, try to offer a better warranty. You are the new kid on the block. Why should I buy from you? Apparently not for a failed board 91 days after the sale. There is the warranty that is printed and the warranty that is taken care of. Stern and JJP have a reputation for making it right. Now maybe American Pinball has one, but not the one they want.

I get what you are saying... But They are the new kids on the block. There will always be risk when spending the thousands of dollars on a game. Just ask Heighway or Dutch. But these smaller guys American and Spooky just don't have the resources the big guys have. Why should you buy? Maybe you shouldn't. If you truly need the bigger warranty then continue to support the big guys. Or maybe you buy from the little guy so they can continue to make pinball machines and become a bigger company which hopefully creates a better competitive market. This will help drive creativity and price. To me it's like going to a big box store versus a family owned store. You buy something from a big box store and it fails they just give you the part because hell, they have warehouses full of that one part. But the mom and pop shop doesn't have those resources. Maybe you are a guy that likes the safety of the big box... I like to support the little guy. That's all. But I totally understand why it looks bad.

#290 5 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

That isn't fair. Everything electronic out there is at the mercy of premature failure of electronic components. We've seen it posted right here on Pinside many times.
Any manufacturer can have a bad or substandard part get into the mix.
Main thing that is really apparent here. Who ever you buy a game from, will they help you after the sale ? Joe at Pinball Star is an obvious choice. Chris at Kingpin Games too, doesn't he double the manufacturer warranty ?
LTG : )

Life ain’t fair - too bad.

AP could have turned this into a very very cheap marketing advantage for $95 bucks. (Not debating merits of this guys post - but once the cat was out of the bag AP could have made this look good). Marketing is expensive - $95 is cheap marketing- thing about that AP.

If you disagree, look at how good this distributor looks for helping. He could have sent me 100 emails to buy from him and I would have ignored, but one post standing behind this guy will get him a bit MORE business.

#291 5 years ago

Percy says enough of this.
PLEASE!

IMG_20180621_222904005 (resized).jpgIMG_20180621_222904005 (resized).jpg
#292 5 years ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Life ain’t fair - too bad.
AP could have turned this into a very very cheap marketing advantage for $95 bucks. (Not debating merits of this guys post - but once the cat was out of the bag AP could have made this look good). Marketing is expensive - $95 is cheap marketing- thing about that AP.
If you disagree, look at how good this distributor looks for helping. He could have sent me 100 emails to buy from him and I would have ignored, but one post standing behind this guy will get him a bit MORE business.

The distro used this shitstorm as a way to make it all good. And it worked swimmingly. Had AP replaced that board outside of warranty and the OP came here and posted, there would be two posts:

One that says so what stern does that all the time

One that says pinstadium sucks.

#293 5 years ago

Disagree!

Btw. JJP hasn't installed reliable LED boards in WOZ ECLE which all know.... And the customer has to pay for a defective board after warranty.
For the ledboards they build fix with the V2 ledboard kit - thats pretty cool but 800$+
critism? No it's holy JJP....
A new Pinball company with a good pricy Pinball get a shit storm because they holds on to their rights???... Omg the End of the world....

I got the feeling that some pinsiders are disrespectful and feel strong only while the internet offers anonymity....
Judging someone or something without knowing the background or the facts is just not the fine way... But the smart ones will know how to rate this thread .... the naysayers can stay in their little cosmos

Hope AP has the possibility to improve the warranty in the future.

#294 5 years ago
Quoted from Jjsmooth:

Percy says enough of this.
PLEASE!
[quoted image]

Perce! Dude we need to play more pinball.

#295 5 years ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

AP could have turned this into a very very cheap marketing advantage for $95 bucks.

Yep. I'm going to call Toyota and see if they will do the same for me.

#296 5 years ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Life ain’t fair - too bad.

I was referring to the "seems like crap quality" remark. An electronic component failing could happen to any pinball manufacturer.

I wasn't talking about how it was handled.

I did point out to buy from a distributor who will help you should the need arise.

LTG : )

#297 5 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

The distro used this shitstorm as a way to make it all good. And it worked swimmingly. Had AP replaced that board outside of warranty and the OP came here and posted, there would be two posts:
One that says so what stern does that all the time
One that says pinstadium sucks.

That was just damn funny... Thanks.

#298 5 years ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

Life ain’t fair - too bad.
AP could have turned this into a very very cheap marketing advantage for $95 bucks. (Not debating merits of this guys post - but once the cat was out of the bag AP could have made this look good). Marketing is expensive - $95 is cheap marketing- thing about that AP.
If you disagree, look at how good this distributor looks for helping. He could have sent me 100 emails to buy from him and I would have ignored, but one post standing behind this guy will get him a bit MORE business.

This just encourages whiny babies to ignore the warranty that was issued and ask for freebies. No he should not have gotten anything from AP. Why because he cried on a forum? That is not how the real world works.

#299 5 years ago
Quoted from Strummy:

Yep. I'm going to call Toyota and see if they will do the same for me.

We finishing each others sentences tonight... did we just become best friends?

#300 5 years ago
Quoted from Strummy:

Yep. I'm going to call Toyota and see if they will do the same for me.

They will help since their electronics are covered for 3 years.

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