(Topic ID: 183206)

American Pinball Houdini thread

By lllvjr

7 years ago


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Topic index (key posts)

41 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #145 Houdini Pinball initial flyer Posted by HighProtein (7 years ago)

Post #184 Initial reveal at TPF Posted by SilverballNut (7 years ago)

Post #190 Introductory Price of Houdini Posted by 1iblind (7 years ago)

Post #198 Initial Pictures of Machine Posted by lllvjr (7 years ago)

Post #229 Playfield Close-Up Pics Posted by bigd1979 (7 years ago)

Post #284 Machine feature details Posted by rosh (7 years ago)

Post #312 More feature details Posted by rosh (7 years ago)

Post #385 Double switch lane picture Posted by pinballrockstar (7 years ago)

Post #420 Pinball show appearance schedule for Houdini Posted by rosh (6 years ago)

Post #434 Houdini pics from Allentown show Posted by PinballSTAR (6 years ago)


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#48 7 years ago

A significant amount of redesign work in just a few months, possible, but grindstone furious.
Aggressive timeline since Expo 2016.

If AP moves the bar for quality and price, they will force the market to shift in a different positive direction.
Stern games do not offer acceptable quality for price now.
Other manufacturers believe they can exclusively cater to the affluent.

AP may even gain a few supporters from the pinball "Old Guard".

Otherwise, the market will continue to slowly stall, until manufacturers close.

There are many gates to pass in a very short time.

1 week later
#144 7 years ago

For basic information the original Houdini advertising flyer was a partial drawing-photo composite using the Zidware cabinet style.
The only manufacturer other than Zidware that used a similar design was WICO Af-Tor back in 1984, but that was predominantly do to the standoff points on the head, and in that case the machine was built out of steel like a tank.

The AP cabinet has returned to more "traditional style", material composition is unknown to me as I did not inquire.

1 month later
#401 7 years ago
Quoted from Ricflair:

I would think they would do something to show that he discredited the spiritualists. They need to do that.

In comparison to Houdini's private quests in his life...

The one thing I do know is a potential owner will need to be a very good spiritualist if they decide to pre order anything from American Pinball and continue acts of utter recklessness.
There is no reason to pad distributors bank accounts, or finance new manufacturers for their efforts.
This is the responsibility of the industry not private consumers.
Operators understood these aspects over 50 years ago based on the "modern" conception of the pinball industry.
Home owners are the new operators, but fail to heed basic understanding of how things work.
It actually HURTS the industry.

I have zero understanding why AP changed their position on allowing distributors to accept preorders for anything, as that was not what was stated upfront. You do not need pre orders to establish baselines for interest. A company does this by testing playing across the the world with released samples.

Learn from the past.

Credibility is not based on people, designers, or past victories, which should have been learned with JPoP, Herb Silvers, Andrew Heighway, and others over the just the last decade alone, many of which are not discussed anymore on any forum.

Credibility is based on products and manufacture as reasonably projected without substantial delays, lies, or excuses.
Overages are the faults of lack of preparation and estimates of requirements which in the pinball industry can be extreme, if a person is a novice. Money is not a savior, experience is the resolution.
JJP learned this lesson REALLY HARD, and this was only a couple of years ago in their case.
JG is not even a novice!!!

There are no victory laps yet here.
American Pinball capabilities for construction are completely unknown, and will remain so, until they can prove they can build and ship a game that actually works as was originally designed.
MG was only taken on as means to try and establish a "look at me" note to get noticed, and they lost hundreds of thousands of dollars, repeating work in many cases that had been repeated over the past 6 years. They already exceeded the threshold of their capabilities once.

A person can be hopeful, but this company should not be considered "alive", highly skilled, or financially stable as a manufacturer because they are currently none of these attributes.

I look forward to playing the prototype at PAGG next month.

#403 7 years ago
Quoted from pinballholder:

Curious where you are seeing that they are doing pre-orders? All I have seen is distributors setting up lists and taking deposits but from what I understood, this is independent of AP and they see none of the money.

It is in the methodology of what is happening.
Consumers are preparing to repeat the mistakes again that have occurred that have repeatedly happened starting in 2010 with Retro Pinball LLC, long before Zidware, Skit-B, or any others.
New people arrive in the hobby, and say "my money is safe, it is like buying other consumer electronics", which we know it is NOT.
I care, because I hate seeing people get burned out of ignorance, that is my Houdini anti-spiritualist quest.

The only money that is "refundable" from many is the initial interest deposit, $100, $250, etc.
Once the game is "revealed", many distributors are required half the money upfront ($3500).
Once the game is "30 days within shipping", the same distributors are requiring the remaining half (another $3500)

What happens is the game is delayed?
What if the games cannot be built in required timelines due to inequities of construction?
What if the distributor underestimates their ability to acquire games?
What percent or all is the money being held with the distributor versus the manufacturer?

It is simply a bad business model in every direction.

In the past every experienced distributors was cautioned AGAINST preorders as a big industry "no no" as manufacturers would potentially end of blacklisting or reducing their quantity availability permanently.
Now it is encouraged, all for the disadvantage of a potential buyer.

Basically, history is continuing to repeat "with a twist".
No one should be giving distributors money for them to hold onto for either themselves or consignments between manufacturers.
Manufacturers ship completed games from factories, not distributors.

Revealed is not constructed.
Constructed is not shipped.
Shipped is not necessarily available, especially if there are manufacturer problems.

Distributors cannot make promises for manufacturers.
It is false advertisement at the very minimum, preying on the lack of knowledge of potential buyers.

-2
#407 7 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

American pinball is not taking pre-orders and not taking money. It would be basically impossible to keep distributors from compiling lists of interested customers and/or taking small deposits to confirm true interest, and I don't think we ever said we would not allow this, and we have chosen not to try to stop it. At some point distributors will need to decide how many they want to initially purchase, and I'm sure they would like some gauge of genuine interest. Most distributors will happily add you to a list without a deposit. Obviously there is a segment of the community that wants to be first in purchasing machines and it seems this helps them do that.
Personally, I would never buy a machine until I have played it and it is available, but that is me, and everyone here is a grown-up (well some don't act like it) and make their own choices. Of course I get to play Houdini every day and it is continues to challenge and entertain me. Just can't figure out how I still can't master the simple shot to the ramp after the lower left loop to increase the playfield multiplier, clearly I have a mental block about it, but at least hitting that tight right inner loop, has gotten pretty common for me.

I know American Pinball is not taking pre orders directly.
I know AP is not "sanctioning" the process.
I never stated this in my explanation.
If this was the case, we might as well start all the way back to 2004.

Upfront, I am not beating on American Pinball, I am explaining the extreme pitfalls and dangers based on experience of allowing distributors to "do what they want."
Basically, it is like saying, "the industry is out of control, and we cannot do anything".
This I already know.
I have been watching the industry for nearly 30 years, and longer than most distributors selling games currently.

Distributor refundable deposits is NOT A LIST.

Distributor Half down at "reveal" (same consumer) is NOT A LIST.
A "reveal" to actual production time lag might be 1 month to 3 years.
Who knows, American Pinball knows currently better than I do, they are producing Houdini, not me.
We are talking about a manufacturer that has never produced a 100% functional game, EVER.

Distributor Final half "30 days prior to shipping" (again same consumer) is NOT A LIST.

Could you (or anybody) please help clarify something however for the benefit of education for everyone?

To a person's knowledge is EVERY distributor currently offering the "pre order program" following these rules?
Are you telling me that ALL "deposit-half-half" money plans is all being held at the distributor level?
Even if this is the case...
THIS IS NOT A LIST, THIS IS A PRE ORDER PLAN!!!
Again, I know American Pinball is not sanctioning this process.

Consumers are paying distributors (potentially non-refundable for the half-and-half) $7K for products they cannot provide or even potentially ever provide if a manufacturer fails to produce the product.
It is simply feeding an open promise.
Does this smell like a bad fart in church to anyone yet?

Why is this exactly acceptable to American Pinball to allow them to do this action?
Previous iterations of these tactic in the 1990s were punished very harshly by manufacturers, as it promoted problems between operators, owners, distributors, and manufacturers. Manufacturers BLACKLISTED distributors. A lesson that was removed when "boutique" home brew manufactures came alive.
American Pinball should CONDEMN this practice, just like BLY/WMS, GTB, AGC, DE in the past, and Stern right NOW.
Stern does not advocate distributors to accept half or final payments until games are manufactured for a reason.

It hurts the company itself, as it builds up something (if not delivered promptly) to have a consumer LOSE FAITH in a manufacturer.
It hurts the industry, as people REFUSE TO BUY AT ALL out of loss of trust in the long term.

Why would this method need to be encouraged?
Why is this method even be required or recommended?

These are my grave concerns, which are extremely valid.

This is simply a "preorder of a different color", and I have seen this tactic before in the past decade.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it most certainly, not "maybe" is a duck.

Build the game, ship the game, buy the game.

It is fine if a distributor says, "I have you on a waiting list."
"I will contact you as soon as they beginning shipping the game."
"When I contact you, you need to be prepared to pay immediately, or the next buyer on the list gets the machine as it ships from the factory."

Totally acceptable, and keeps the production line running both for the distributor and the manufacturer, and the buyer gets his game.
Everybody wins, nobody loses.
Industry grows, consumers are content, and there are no false promises.

#414 7 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

No money is flowing to American Pinball. AP is not requiring deposits or payments of any kind, nor are we telling distributors they should or should not be doing this. They are independent businesses and we have placed very few requirements on them at this time. It is certainly possible that will change in the future. Any deposits made are with that distributor. If you don't like a distributors terms, I am certain you can find one whose terms are acceptable to you. If we find a distributor is misleading customers and providing false information, they certainly could lose their right to distribute the game.
At this time is seems most folks are comfortable making deposits with distributors to hold their place in line vs sending money to a manufacturer, and given what was have seen the last few years, that certainly makes sense and it is one of the reason we decided to not be selling direct or taking pre-orders. If you are not comfortable with the terms of a distributer, I suggest finding one whose terms you are, or wait until games are ready to ship. As Larry indicated a few posts above, he does not require that, and that is certainly the case with other distributors as well. Obviously each distributor has different dynamics in their business.
I certainly understand the concerns people have with a new company, and I certainly don't take offense. We have tried to look at recent history and do things in a way that most folks will find acceptable. Obviously, like everything else in pinball, not everyone will be happy or agree with our decisions, whether it be our sales model, game design, rules, etc.

Thank you for the clarification.
Good fortune with development of Houdini and the success of American Pinball.

1 year later
-1
#3378 5 years ago

I have enjoyed the playing and testing the two games that are presently being burned in and tested in the shop for identification for needs of bulletproofing prior to routing.

There seems to be some more switch adjustments needed, and more protectors needed as aftermarket for some of the brickshot airballs to protect plastics. Latest software was an improvement, but there still is a lagginess in the lightshow effects, and unknown lost balls underneath the playfield cause undetermined. LCD integration and effects were well done. The proprietary use of non-lugged coils and Molex exclusive connectors was not perfectly received from an operator standpoint. Durability of some of the PCBs, made pause on future cold solder joints potential due to game vibration.

Plenty of other observations are being recorded for AP first "true" pinball title.

Keep flipping.

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