Houdini
American Pinball, 2017You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider pbwizard14.
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So there will be options available to purchase. I'm interested in non-reflective glass, but not a shaker motor. I am on the list for one of these games already. Really like the theme and art work on the machine. It reminds me of a Williams/Bally game and that is the type of game I have been waiting for since they closed their doors.
Any idea on how many pre-orders for this machine? I'm only interested because the market seems to be tightening up and more players competing for a limited number of customers will cause some doors to close permanently. Stern warned about this a very long time ago and now they appear to be the ones people are flocking from due to price and quality. I am on the list for one of these at Little Shop of Games in Florida.
This is only my second NIB pinball machine, the first being LOTR which I liked but sold because it just didn't stack up to my other machines. I have 4 games, SS, CV, TOTAN, and TZ (TZ done by high end pins for me). I feel this machine will be the perfect addition to my other titles. I owned a Theatre of Magic but hated the trunk breaking all the time and the repetitive game play so it went too. Two other games I owned were Star Wars 2000 and STTNG. I am really looking forward to this game. I was a buyer of Wayne Gilliard's MM and waited 6 years before I asked for and received a full refund. While MM has been redone, my desire for the game faded so here I am with this machine.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Wow, you didn't think LOTR measured up! You do have a great lineup, but what was it you didn't like? And same for STTNG? you've owned the top pins of all time! (Ok not Star Wars
LOTR was and is an enjoyable game and sometimes I miss it. What I didn't like was playing it made no sense to me in some regard as to achieve the end result of destroying the ring. Sometimes I would get to the end and not really know how I got there and other times I wondered why I didn't get there if that makes any sense. STTNG seemed repetitive to me too having to shoot down the middle for many missions. I liked the video modes, but overall the game did not hold my interest after I got it and played it for a while. I purchased these games without having played them anywhere because they were popular and still are. When you make a mistake with a popular game, you normally do not get hurt too much or at all when you sell them. It has been years since I have parted with them and prices were still in the $3500 range. I like the themes of the games I still have and their difficulty varies, but they are all very entertaining to me and they are just great to look at when they are not being played. All my games have black powder coated side rails, lock down bars, black doors, legs (except TOTAN gold legs) and shooter plates. As with all games, it boils down to personal preference. I like that Houdini has matching legs, side rails and lockdown bars from the factory. All machines have moved away from plain stainless and that is good. My machines too!
Quoted from CaptainNeo:destroying the ring is not the ending. It's kind of a half way point, so those of us that are not A players, could feel like we accomplished something. but you are still a far ways away from the real ending of the game.
I guess that is why I was able to part with it, I didn't understand the game although I liked the movies and I like the theme. It is the only Stern game that has appealed to me and I could have kept it, but I knew other games will come along that I would like better. I hope Houdini will be a keeper too. I have to really want a game I see and this machine fits the bill. The more I learn about Houdini and the company, the more I feel this is a game I want to own and play.
I know one thing about this game (for myself of course), when they end the run of this machine and move on to the next, I would hate to be on the outside looking in. For me, this is the rebirth of Williams/Bally, at least from what I have seen. I was hoping JJP would have been it, but Jack's titles do not interest me, although I do not doubt the quality is there because everybody has said it is outstanding. Maybe a future title from Jack, but for now this is the one to own for me. I have been on the sideline since Wayne Gilliard announced the remake of MM and I get in on that, so it's been a while.
Quoted from rubberducks:It's not licensed. They can build them as long as there is demand for them.
That is true, but most Williams/Bally machines were not licensed either and when they moved on, they moved on. I do not think it would be easy to produce two or three machines at the same time. There has to be a ton of parts and game specific parts would have to be completely isolated from one another not to mention the people it would take to roll two or three different production lines. Stern has been doing it, but his key to success must be that most machines share a lot of the same parts and only have a few changes when it comes to theme specific items or he completely stops production of one game and restarts it for a previous title.
Quoted from swillie:I'm likely never going to purchase a N.I.B. pin, but Houdini is coming close. I just hope one shows up in the wild somewhere close by so I can dump quarters in it.
I would be careful about waiting to get one of these used. I collect coins and sometimes you can get coins below the price offered by the mint and sometimes you will never be able to get the coin for what it was issued for. I believe this machine will not be touchable at the offer price or below unless it completely tanks. Even a route machine will hold its value and if you get one, it will have to be refurbished which will cost. It could be a case of $7,000 NIB or possibly $9,000+ for a pre-owned machine. I personally don't care whether or not its value goes up or down because all of my machines have appreciated since I purchased them and I know I could not afford to get them today in the shape I purchased them in many years ago.
The run will probably last a year or 2 and when the dust settles there may be between 4000 and 8000 (maybe a few more or less) machines available TOTAL. People will not be selling them and routes will not take them off just because they are no longer being produced. Once the run ends completely, if the game is indeed a home run then the prices will go up. It's that simple. Supply and demand just like when MM was first produced, only 4000 or so machines and because it is popular its price soared. The number of all the machines being produced right now, today, is going to shrink because there are several companies making machines; Heighway, Spooky, Stern, JJP, CPC, and American, at the same time, people can only afford one maybe 2 of them over the course of a year or 2. When production stops all of them will have LOW production numbers making them RARE and driving up their price if they are popular. Unpopular games will not move in price very much because nobody will be trying to get one after production ends. If I can't buy a JJP POTC and a Houdini, I have to choose and that is a big deal because neither company will be producing them forever, although JJP is still offering WOZ and Hobbit, but not every model.
Quoted from rubberducks:It's stupid for the vast majority of people interested to order now, when they have not seen or played one. So saying order now is ridiculous.
Provided it's a good & reliable machine, per my previous posts, it should prove very popular in Europe due to its pricing. But the orders aren't going to come in until people actually get a chance to see and play. Also looks like they're going to miss EU's largest show this year, and possibly also the world's (for 2017). There's not even any decent (and recent) video footage yet either.
Also, there is absolutely no chance in hell of them producing 4-8000 machines in 12 months. JJP have a much larger facility and production line and can produce only about 4000 machines a year, give or take, maximum. CGC committed major resources to AFMr & MMr this year, and their estimate was 3000-3500 for the year.
Based on the size of the production areas AP have shown, I'd expect the first 1000 to take *at least* 6 months. Maybe more if there are hiccups and lessons learned.
Perhaps demand is so strong after a few are out in the wild, they will choose to expand the size and pace of production, though, if they have that option.
If somehow over the course of 3 or 4 years, they produce 4000 of them, they'll be available well below list, second hand.
If you're basing your estimates and buying decisions on the kind of numbers and theories in your post, I'd urge you to reassess.
This post proves my point on the limited number of machines and the price you will pay for a used one. You guys act like these machines are all over the country for people to play, guess what, they aren't and that should not be a factor. If it gets good reviews and it's a theme you're interested in then buy it. I have purchased several machines I never played before because they were popular and looked interesting and guess what...I didn't like them and sold them without taking a loss.
Quoted from Black_Knight:pbwizard, You should go check out the Bitcoin thread, your logic is so convoluted and foundation is so wrong it would fit in perfectly over there...
You must not know much about supply, demand, and rarity. I don't know what the production numbers are, but the other post shed some light on it and it proved my point about machine availability. The pool of potential buyers is not going to grow very much, so with so many companies competing and all putting out titles people are interested in, they will have to choose what to buy. Even a 4 year run would not increase sales or the number of machines available for a particular title if people are spending their money on somebody else's games. I believe part of the price hikes people are complaining about now is being driven by what I am talking about. I guess that doesn't register with you. I am also saying that thinking a title will decrease in value to a price that is more affordable than a NIB just because it is a used game is not a safe assumption with this competitive climate because the price could soar instead due to rarity.
Quoted from rosh:"Perfectionist", no. First off, I don't believe any pinball machine can be perfect, and even if it was possible, and I strived for perfection, you would likely never get your games (see Jpop). There is always going to be something I would have liked to have done different/better. My job is about balance, and that applies to many things. I have to balance the needs of the timelines, budgets with my vision for the game. I have to balance the rules to be good for novices, enthusiasts and wizards. I have to balance my efforts around rules vs lights vs animations vs sounds. My goal is to minimize the sacrifices I have to make within the decisions, to try to get as much of what I want in the machine, into the machine. Fight the good fight. There are always tradeoffs and things you have to give up. There are always things that are not quite right, but, are determined to be 'good enough' since there are bigger issues/needs elsewhere.
I have to laugh since this is the second version of it, the first, which was done by the animator, was felt to be too cartoony by the artist. So he did the current one, and I think it does to a better job of capturing more of that time period feel (regardless, you have to like my animated barber pole on the building). While I get your point on the look, not sure it is 'cringe worthy' (if you said that about the original, I would buy it). I will share your feedback with the artist.
I debated quite a bit about the hat, original we talked about a 'box', but the animator went with the hat, partially due to lending it self better for pulling out the 'awards' (e.g. the clear wine glass would not quite do that sine it is a lot more than cards that get pulled out -- during my brief dalliance with Magic, I used to do the rising card trick). Keep in mind, it is not Houdini at the magic shop (although he did own one that still exists today), and if you go into most magic shops, you are going to see tricks based on the pulling something out of a hat or box or bag. So at the end of the day, it is a well know magical element, and it seemed a good fit for the mystery award, which is why I felt it worked. There is a long list of suggestions from folks here where I totally crapped on them for not being true or honorable to 'Houdini'. But you do have to make some compromises or take literary license to make things work.
hmm, there are only four maybe five fonts total used in the game, and 90% of what is on screen for dynamic text is the same font. There are a couple of animations that are still place holders (I think there was one during bullet catch), that use "Impact" but those will eventually go away. I guess one place you are seeing that is the different 'panels' that rise up on the main score screen, since some of the panels use a font to match that section of the game. A couple use our 'alternative' font, which is narrower than the primary font that is used. The movie theatre marquee, I think has the original 'houdini' font we were using, but that one was just too wide and went to a narrower one, so, there probably is a mixed font on those screens. The one that is part of the image and the dynamic text, so, that one will likely get adjusted. There are some other animations/screens with non dynamic text, that are non-standard fonts, done by the artist or animator to match the feel for the animation that follows. Well, I guess in some cases it was me, with some of the stage intro animations before we settled in on the primary font -- so some of those could get changed (typically those are the sans-serif fonts). But typically there is no other fonts on the page, e.g. the 'magic shop' sign on the building, the FILM letters, the SEANCE letters, the intro screen for Needles, etc. I'll have to keep an eye out for any animations that have a mix of more than 2 fonts or screens done early with what is now a non-standard font. You do want some variation for the sections to help you quickly know what info you are looking at, e.g. Seance vs Film vs Escape. Again, typically single font. So talking through it, probably a touch more than I remembered/realized, but still not a ton, regardless, I'll keep an eye out.
Funny story, I am sitting in my office one day, and I keep hearing giggles, that sound like they are coming from the hallway. I'm first thinking it is our receptionist chatting with someone, but I keep hearing it. Finally I realize that I must have turned on attract sounds, and the giggle had been thrown in there as a place holder months earlier. Since the machine sits parallel to my desk, the sounds were bouncing off the glass door to my office, given it the sense it was from outside the office.
Different giggles might help, but still might just be annoying. Coming up with sound effects for things like slings, loops, attract, etc. and have them fit the theme, not too easy. You can only use chain and lock sounds so many times. Meeting with my sound guy tomorrow, so he and I will brainstorm though some other sounds. But if you have suggestions . . .
How about the sound of a crown watching one of his feats, an "oooh" and "aaaw" sound with a touch of apprehension is the only way I can describe it, but people still make that sound today when they see something remarkable and a bit scary.
Quoted from rosh:Different giggles might help, but still might just be annoying. Coming up with sound effects for things like slings, loops, attract, etc. and have them fit the theme, not too easy. You can only use chain and lock sounds so many times. Meeting with my sound guy tomorrow, so he and I will brainstorm though some other sounds. But if you have suggestions . . .
What do you think about bells like the ones they use when somebody enters through the door of a magic shop instead of the giggles? Here is a link to a HP video I found when I googled sounds of magic. Near the very beginning he walks into the wand shop and the bells sound.
I think that would be a good sling sound. It reminds me of my TOTAN sling of swords clashing against each other which fits the theme perfectly as do the bells for a magic shop and Houdini.
Quoted from swillie:Played today at Marvins...sandwiched between an AFMr and MMr. Beautiful game, flipper strength seemed just right, catapult landed in the trunk every time. Shots are tough, for a novice like me anyway. A ball rolling down from the keyhole wants to go SDTM, once it burned me a couple times I was able to nudge it to the flipper. If I have one gripe it is that the front end sits about 3" shorter than the pins around it. It and the remakes all had the levelers at the lowest height so there was room to raise it, but the remakes height felt correct. Gave a more top down view of playfield, but im 6'2" and me and another player both felt it was sitting too low. Besides that I loved it, the challenge kept me wanting one more game. I barely put a dent in the code, lol im no pinball wizard for sure.
The leg bolts on the Houdini look like they are placed higher than where the bolts are on other games. Post #1953 of this thread shows Houdini next to another machine and you can see the legs are bolted higher up on the Houdini than on the machine next to it. It looks to be about 2 or 3 inches higher which would lower the game.
This thread has stopped me from buying this machine for now. I have a deposit and down payment in at Little Shop of Games, but I am not going to complete the transaction until this machine plays properly from the factory and the posts reflect that. This was to be my second NIB, first was LOTR which I no longer have. Not a Stern fan for any title. I have been waiting for another company and title I could get behind, JJP has good games, but not titles that interest me. This machine looked good and the AP has been working on making it better throughout, but I just cannot finish the purchase until it is completely right. This may still be my second NIB, but for now, I am on the sideline and looking forward to seeing other games that have been announced.
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Briarcliff Manor, NY