(Topic ID: 83736)

PIGGY DEUX - Gottlieb System 80B Daughterboard/Piggyback Fix (plug-and-play)


By acebathound

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 143 posts
  • 33 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 months ago by acebathound
  • Topic is favorited by 27 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “How many would you purchase?”

    • 1 17 votes
      47%
    • 2-3 14 votes
      39%
    • 4-6 2 votes
      6%
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    (36 votes)

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    There are 143 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
    #101 4 years ago
    Quoted from shimoda:

    I haven't had any issues so mine is staying in game. Did have a 5 Mill point ball one on Genesis, maybe it's the board!

    It must be, I've had a couple of really good games too.

    #102 4 years ago

    I think you've got a winner Wayne. Good idea!
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
    http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    1 month later
    #103 4 years ago

    @Ace - Can the PiggyDeux be used if the Piggyback is removed/not in place? (And you can read between the lines - I just had a massively failed attempt at piggyback removal on my Gold Wings and just bought a PD on eBay!) I see one mention in the thread about it working without PB in place, just want to ensure that is a supported setup and it does not take any dependencies on all traces/pads being present .

    Thanks!
    Adam

    #104 4 years ago
    Quoted from GoldWingsPilot:

    @Ace - Can the PiggyDeux be used if the Piggyback is removed/not in place? (And you can read between the lines - I just had a massively failed attempt at piggyback removal on my Gold Wings and just bought a PD on eBay!) I see one mention in the thread about it working without PB in place, just want to ensure that is a supported setup and it does not take any dependencies on all traces/pads being present .
    Thanks!
    Adam

    Yep, just move the game PROM from the daughter board to the piggydeux board. There should be photos earlier in the thread.

    Edit: here's one photo: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/alternative-gottlieb-sys80b-piggyback-fix-plug-and-play-interest-check/page/2#post-3112722

    #105 4 years ago
    Quoted from GoldWingsPilot:

    @Ace - Can the PiggyDeux be used if the Piggyback is removed/not in place? (And you can read between the lines - I just had a massively failed attempt at piggyback removal on my Gold Wings and just bought a PD on eBay!) I see one mention in the thread about it working without PB in place, just want to ensure that is a supported setup and it does not take any dependencies on all traces/pads being present .
    Thanks!
    Adam

    Yes, but, the damage to the traces must be repaired. Signals cross through the eyelets to the RIOTs. This must be maintained.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
    http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

    #106 4 years ago

    Chris, so you are saying you don't need to have the piggyback present, but that there are some critical traces that need to be maintained even if the piggyback is absent as they pass through the board and still need continuity?

    I only have one bad trace on the main board, that I think I can bluewire around, but will do extensive continuity checks before trying out the piggydeux.

    Thanks!

    #107 4 years ago
    Quoted from GoldWingsPilot:

    Chris, so you are saying you don't need to have the piggyback present, but that there are some critical traces that need to be maintained even if the piggyback is absent as they pass through the board and still need continuity?
    I only have one bad trace on the main board, that I think I can bluewire around, but will do extensive continuity checks before trying out the piggydeux.
    Thanks!

    Right, no need for the original daughterboard to be present.. the PIGGY DEUX will work either way. Just need to make sure you have good connections on the MPU as Chris mentioned.

    #108 4 years ago

    Address and data lines move from chip to chip to that 40 socket. If they are broken down stream, nothing will work.

    #109 4 years ago
    Quoted from GoldWingsPilot:

    Chris, so you are saying you don't need to have the piggyback present, but that there are some critical traces that need to be maintained even if the piggyback is absent as they pass through the board and still need continuity?
    I only have one bad trace on the main board, that I think I can bluewire around, but will do extensive continuity checks before trying out the piggydeux.
    Thanks!

    Yes sir. Just as ace mentioned.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
    http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

    3 weeks later
    #110 3 years ago

    I don't think I ever mentioned this but these are now available on the website @ http://www.pinitech.com/products/gottlieb_piggydeux.php & of course eBay as some people have already found (had a few sales over there last month). Price is slightly higher on eBay due to fees over there.

    Hopefully it's helped fix some issues for the handful of people that have bought one recently. Thanks for the support!

    ---
    http://www.pinitech.com - "Pinball Inspired Technology"
    Kits, upgrades and test equipment for pinball machines

    #111 3 years ago

    Is there a way to determine if random reset issues are the daughter board? I picked up a Raven about a month ago and it's reset on me twice now. Both times I was having a really good ball. The last reset was this: Long ball time, all bonus lights on, 4x scoring - RESET.

    I'm shooting to get this running 100% for the Cleveland Show in September, although I have a couple of other things to fix besides the couple of resets.

    #112 3 years ago
    Quoted from Geocab:

    Is there a way to determine if random reset issues are the daughter board?

    With 100% certainty? No.
    But if you install a Piggy and the resets abate over a long period, then there is very strong circumstantial evidence that the daughter card solder joints were fractured. The percentage of daughter cards with fractured joints is very high I'd say. I always replace the daughter card with the GPE re-engineered card, but the Piggy is a great alternative and a LOT easier.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
    http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

    #113 3 years ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    With 100% certainty? No.
    But if you install a Piggy and the resets abate over a long period, then there is very strong circumstantial evidence that the daughter card solder joints were fractured.

    Yep, in that sense the PIGGY DEUX is additionally a handy diagnostic tool which can be used to either quickly identify issues with the original daughterboard (on machines that are immediately locking up after booting or resetting often) -- or that could be left in a machine longer term if the resets are occurring less frequently and eventually evidence would support solder joints if the resets no longer occur. Nice thing is it's easily removed so if it wasn't your issue, you have the board for the next "patient"

    Something else to mention is if the actual "RESET BOARD" is connected in your game -- a wiring issue (mainly IRQ signals not getting to the board) or failing caps on the RESET BOARD may cause intermittent resets. That board can be disconnected to rule it out as it's not needed for the game to function and is generally what you will hear people tell you to do on System 80B games.

    #114 3 years ago

    Is a diode and a pull resistor fast enough to replace the 7404?

    #115 3 years ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    Is a diode and a pull resistor fast enough to replace the 7404?

    The diode and resistor are part of the normal reset board connections, found on the reset board harness (soldered to the board that typically plugs into TC1). Those components are maintained on the PIGGY DEUX. The diode is needed as part of the reset circuit in how the reset board actually initiates a reset. The pull-up is something Gottlieb added to one of the signal lines. Additional components are replacing the 7404.

    #116 3 years ago

    I ordered one of these in case it may be my issue. Can't hurt, right?

    #117 3 years ago
    Quoted from Geocab:

    I ordered one of these in case it may be my issue. Can't hurt, right?

    Yep, can't hurt. Worst case it eliminates the daughter board's solder joints as being the issue. Best case, the machine boots right up.

    #118 3 years ago

    Haven't had the chance to get a massive amount of these assembled ahead of time, but just curious if it's something that some people would be interested in bulk discounts on on quantities of 2-3x or more. Maybe for the repair guys to keep a few in-stock in their repair bag o' tricks? Just curious where to go with offering any bulk discounts one eBay/website versus just keeping a single price.

    3 months later
    #119 3 years ago

    I had a chance to build up a few dozen of these since the last post & have added quantity discounts to the website.

    http://www.pinitech.com/products/gottlieb_piggydeux.php

    Please consider this as an option if you're not too sure of your abilities to remove the daughter board on your System 80B board and/or don't have the proper tools and technique for the task. The PIGGY DEUX is plug-and-play and completely reversible, no permanent modifications.. no soldering.. you don't even have to remove the MPU from the game. A quick search of this forum will show you how easy it is to pull pads/traces on the System 80B MPU boards while attempting to remove the daughter board if you have never done it before. This alternative solution is thus offered as a non-invasive way to fix an issue that really just amounts to cracked solder joints at an EPROM socket that's a bit tricky for then novice to repair.

    ---
    http://www.pinitech.com - "Pinball Inspired Technology"
    Kits, upgrades and test equipment for pinball machines

    #120 3 years ago

    on my list of cool things to buy thanks

    #121 3 years ago

    I thought I had followed up on this, but I see I have not. Bought one of these when was having "no boot" issues, put it in the machine and am no longer having issues! I've even transported it to the Cleveland Show and back and still runnin strong.

    #122 3 years ago
    Quoted from Geocab:

    I thought I had followed up on this, but I see I have not. Bought one of these when was having "no boot" issues, put it in the machine and am no longer having issues! I've even transported it to the Cleveland Show and back and still runnin strong.

    Comments like that are great to hear! I've sold a few handful since the beta testing was going on, but haven't had much feefback come in from those. No news is good news, but hearing that it's fixing people's problems is even better Thanks for letting me know!

    #123 3 years ago

    Can these be used to replace the os roms on the 80 and 80A boards with 2764s?

    #124 3 years ago
    Quoted from mcandrew:

    Can these be used to replace the os roms on the 80 and 80A boards with 2764s?

    I actually don't see why not.. would just need the code for U2/U3 in the right place on the 2764. And U2/U3 chips would need to either be removed or disabled -- not sure if there's a clever way to disable them without having to remove them from the board (if soldered). I'll have to play around with that some.

    1 month later
    #125 3 years ago

    Got mine today - took about 10 minutes total to install. Fixed my Hollywood Heat's intermittent boot issue exactly as promised.

    Much thanks!

    #126 3 years ago
    Quoted from boscokid:

    Got mine today - took about 10 minutes total to install. Fixed my Hollywood Heat's intermittent boot issue exactly as promised.
    Much thanks!

    Great to hear that! Sounded like it would do the trick. Glad it made it an easy fix, exactly what it's intended for. Thx for the follow-up!

    1 month later
    #127 3 years ago

    Anyone try the PIGGY DEUX with Sys80/Sys80A games? Burning a 2764 with U2/U3 code in the correct address locations? I've been asked by several people now and I don't see any reason it wouldn't work aside from having to remove the original chips or disable them if they're soldered to the board.

    Also of note is on the earlier System 80/80A games D16 display signal is being monitored by the RESET BOARD. On System 80B games they get a duplicate IRQ signal sent there instead. So on earlier 80/80A games you'd need to wire D16 to pin #3 of the RESET BOARD (via the harness) if you're keeping the RESET BOARD connected.

    ---
    http://www.pinitech.com - "Pinball Inspired Technology"
    Kits, upgrades and test equipment for pinball machines

    2 weeks later
    #128 3 years ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    So on earlier 80/80A games you'd need to wire D16 to pin #3 of the RESET BOARD (via the harness) if you're keeping the RESET BOARD connected.

    Easy solution...dump the reset board. It's not needed (and I know that you know that Wayne...just letting other folks know). Unless you are a true, true purist...
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #129 3 years ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    Easy solution...dump the reset board. It's not needed (and I know that you know that Wayne...just letting other folks know). Unless you are a true, true purist...

    See my train of thought was, if it's working -- why not leave it connected? I've understood the thought about "home use environment" and it not being as necessary if grounding mods are done. But are grounding mods & CPU lockups really related at all? I'm not a purist about leaving it connected, just looking at it like it's not bad as a fail-safe if the CPU locks up.

    Which brings to question, what might cause a CPU lock-up on a Sys80 under normal operation -- failing eprom, failing power supply, dip on the 5v line?

    #130 3 years ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    what might cause a CPU lock-up on a Sys80 under normal operation -- failing eprom, failing power supply, dip on the 5v line?

    Any of those things...plus more that we could identify together.

    The reset board is the equivalent of more modern watchdog timer/reset ICs.
    Since System 80/A/B games don't use a lamp matrix, and no coils or flashers will be on during attract mode (generally), there isn't really anything catastrophic that can happen as a result of a locked up MPU board. Hence, no real need for a "blanking" circuit either as found in WMS 3-11, WPC, WhiteStar, etc game systems.

    BTW..."why not leave it connected"...I usually take coin drop lockout coils out of the circuit too...
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    2 months later
    #131 3 years ago

    Been OOS on these for a while this year. Ran out of header pins building out some other products and haven't had a chance to get back to assembling the next dozen or two.

    I've had a couple of people contact me recently asking about availability. Plenty of pcbs, just need to build out a new batch. So it's time to take a quick poll. Anyone else been waiting for these to come back in-stock? Helps to know if I can sell a solid handful out of a new batch.

    #132 3 years ago

    Yes

    1 week later
    #133 3 years ago

    Ok after throwing up the waitlists again on the website I've had this board requested a few more times.

    I'll get another dozen or so made up over the next 1-2 weeks & will then notify the few people that expressed interest & should then be available via shopping cart again. Sorry for anyone that's been patiently waiting for one!

    ---
    http://www.pinitech.com - "Pinball Inspired Technology"
    NVRAM, kits, upgrades and test equipment for pinball machines

    #134 3 years ago

    Okay Got another 10x of these under way! SMD parts on them & just need to get the through-hole parts soldered and test. Should be able to start shipping them out as soon as mid-week next week.

    Anyone that wants to jump in on this batch, sign up on the waitlist over @ http://www.pinitech.com/products/gottlieb_piggydeux.php

    I'll be contacting the people that have been waiting patiently to hear back from me first, then new sign-ups, then any remaining will be listed on the website / eBay.

    2 weeks later
    #135 3 years ago

    Available again on the website.

    http://www.pinitech.com/products/gottlieb_piggydeux.php

    Limited quantities built out right now, so they may not last long. These take longer to assemble than I remembered I'll try to keep availability on these but they may go out-of-stock for a few weeks at times.

    2 months later
    #136 2 years ago

    Thanks ACE! Just got one for my Excalibur. I have a flaky traces rebuild on mine that I can't take no more. That Piggyback is going on the 'rotisserie'!!

    #137 2 years ago
    Quoted from zprobowler:

    Thanks ACE! Just got one for my Excalibur. I have a flaky traces rebuild on mine that I can't take no more. That Piggyback is going on the 'rotisserie'!!

    Cool! I hope it solves you problem! Let me know once you get the board how it works out =)

    Excalibur's a neat game. Doesn't seem to come up for sale too often. I had one for a bit 4-5 years ago. Can't keep 'em all!

    1 year later
    #138 1 year ago

    Heads up, got a few of the PIGGY DEUX back in-stock again. A few went to folks that signed up on the waitlist already.

    Don't expect the remaining to last long and I'm out of the first run of PCBs. Won't be until April/May till I get more in.

    https://www.pinitech.com/products/gottlieb_piggydeux.php

    piggydeux.jpg
    4 months later
    #139 1 year ago

    More of these in-stock again. Limited to about 10x on the shopping cart at the moment, since there was a handful of customers that had emailed & I want to make sure they get a chance at one.

    https://www.pinitech.com/products/gottlieb_piggydeux.php

    ---
    http://www.pinitech.com - "Pinball Inspired Technology"
    NVRAM, kits, upgrades and test equipment for pinball machines

    2 weeks later
    #140 11 months ago

    Will this board work with a Gottlieb Caveman where all the coils fire and lock on as soon as it's power up?

    #141 11 months ago

    Got my Gold Wings booting every time now

    80942BC7-90E3-4CF9-B431-EE9377606A78 (resized).jpeg
    #142 11 months ago
    Quoted from CUJO:

    Will this board work with a Gottlieb Caveman where all the coils fire and lock on as soon as it's power up?

    Caveman's a Gottlieb System 80A. The PIGGY DEUX is meant for System 80B MPUs (later revision) that used an additional daughter board at the U2/U3 locations -- which is known to have solder joints go bad and cause issues with games booting.

    Sounds like your game/MPU will need some work. Unfortunately with coils firing like that it could be a variety of things, from corrosion on the MPU, to bad eproms, to ground mods, bad transistors or connections at the driver board, etc. You'll either need to go through some of the repair info out there for similar issues of coils locking on or send the board out for repair (if you're not comfortable working through it yourself).

    #143 11 months ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    Got my Gold Wings booting every time now

    It's always great to hear when this board helps a game boot solidly!

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