I agree. I had some opto problems and Frank in tech support was fantastic to work with. Turned out to be a bad opto board.

IMHO Best game ever made. In build quality and bang for your buck not comparable to any stern, it's in a league of it's own.

Have my Wozecle for two months and now I understand most of the rules, love it even more. To learn the rules I played a couple of games with the glass off, that really helped me in understanding the game. Like said before, a lot of info on what to do next is on the lcd screen, use that instant info! It's rulesset is deep ans extremely challenging, getting to 'somewhere over the rainbow' is impossible for a lot of players (without cheating , melting the witch is achievable a lot of fun to play and very satisfying if you succeed. The modes all feel / are different from each other, you never have the feeling you're doing the same thing. I also own a Stern Star Trek le, where al modes are more or less are the same. Still like that game a lot, fun and fast, but for me miles away from the build quality and ruleset of woz

As with all pinball games you like it or you don't. There's no accounting for taste...... If you read through this and other WOZ post(s), most people who own a WOZ love it, some don't and sold it. I love my wozecle and can't imagine selling it any time soon.

Just curious Pinball-Pat, are you planning to buy one in the future?

I don't think you understand what bang for your buck means, because I could list about 50 games that are better bang dollar for dollar.

The modern pinballer seems to think a $10,000 watch is a great deal, so a $9,000 pinball machine looks like bargain of the century next to that.

I'm sure you're the same as me Neo ... Half of my games cost less than $1500 bucks.

rd.

I hate the theme, I hate the music but the game play is amazing and fun. Lots of things going on.
I'm not planning on letting mine go anytime soon.

What I ment is bang for your buck in comparison to modern stern (le's), like star trek le or walking dead le. Woz stil costs a lot of money, probably to much, I agree with you on that! Prices here in Europe are getting insane. Since the $ is gaining in worth to the €, prices go up even more then they allready did in the last 2-3 years (for nib machines). I heard that a nib wrestlemania le is going to cost about €9.000,- in Europe. More and more collectors aren't buying any more nib, because of these prices. I'm really curious where the market is going, I guess less and less nib's are going to be sold here in Europe......

I played about 25 more games on it at last pinball tournament. Growing on me and still need to figure out what to do. The light show is amazing. I think it just lacks the satisfying shots like some of the Classic games have in them.

IMO and I know I'm probably in the minority, but the game does absolutely nothing for me. The changing light show and huge lcd screen look great, but the theme and music blow, and all the shots seem repetitive. Maybe I just don't know all the rules and all the location games I have played just seem like huge clunkers, but I don't even put my money in them anymore if I see it on location.

Add a poll?

It's ok,
It's neat looking and a work of art,
To me, there is no WOW money shot in the game though...

I really feel like there's no excuse for a game being that hard to follow that you haven't pretty much figured it out after 25 plays. That's one of the big problems with this game right there.

I just played 10 games of Cactus Canyon over the past two days (first time playing it, preparing for a league match) and I've got it figured out. Got 307 million on it and the GC.

But that's a Williams/bally game and they had a knack for putting out intuitive, fun stuff.

TZ is intuitive? I've played that game numerous times...even had it explained to me, and I still can't figure out what the hell I'm supposed to do. ACDC is the same way for me as well. WOZ I could figure out without any explanation. I guess everyone's brains are just wired differently.

That's one of the things I like about Congo: Collect the f-ing diamonds. Any questions?

Yes. Anybody who has played TAF should have the TZ basics figured out within 10 games.

I'll agree with you about AC/DC though, but then, that's always been one of Stern's problems in my opinion. I like ACDC but it took forever for me to figure it out.

I'm still trying to figure why a WOZ-lover's immediate response to any criticism of that game is always "Oh yeah?! BUT TWILIGHT ZONE!!!!"

They're both very similar games. Lots of stop and go. Deep rule set. Both awesome. I didn't realize I was in good company with loving WOZ and hating TZ (which I really do wish I loved more!). And I don't really get Addams either. I just keep playing it so I can hear the Mamushka! and Showtime! callouts. Not a huge Pat Lawlor fan for that matter.

I don't see how someone can't figure out WOZ after 25 plays. There's an instruction manual built right into the instant info. Any feature can start at any time, so there's none of that intricate "gotta qualify this before starting that" stuff to remember. Sure, the game has all kinds of deep strategy, but it's not complicated to just start modes. What part can't you figure out?

You are in good company in slamming TZ whenever someone says they don't like WOZ.

I don't get it at all. They are completely different games, yet people seem to think they can attach the two to change someone's opinion of WOZ. They aren't similar at all. You can have "flow" while being stop and go - TZ has it and WOZ doesn't.

Keep this shit up and I'll have to do a long, boring dissertation on why TZ and WOZ are in fact NOT "the same." And nobody wants to see that.

*I* didn't say I didn't figure it out in 25 plays, someone else did.

I did figure out I didn't like WOZ in 25 plays.

Here's where you and I differ. I never said TZ wasn't a great game. It is. I just don't like it. I'm intellectually honest enough to admit when a great game isn't to my liking. It's still a great game.

Now, don't you have a sidewalk to shovel?

Totally agree! WOZ isn't anywhere near the game TZ. TZ is a classic game very well designed. Can't do that level of pinball design today. WOZ is just a classic title.

BTW...I'd LOVE to see this, and it wouldn't bore me at all. (And I don't think they're "the same"...just similar.)

Game is fun and sure is pretty to look at. But like TSPP its just to much work to play. I mean you can attack it a zillion different ways but to me it becomes very stressful. Fun in short bursts though.

If I did, I'd own my own place which would mean I was so rich, I wouldn't have to shovel my own sidewalk.

It's a real catch-22.

I cannot call WOZ a great game BECAUSE I don't like it. I'm intellectually dishonest, I guess?

Assignment for Levi: Pick one game that you would define as great, but that you don't like. Everybody has one!

And I have my own house, but I do my own driveway because I don't want to pay the miscreants that "decorate" my house on Mischief Night.

Well I lied cause I'm too lazy to do it right now...but some highlights-

TZ is mode based, WOZ isn't. I like mode-based rulesets.

TZ has lots of "safe" shots that you can perfect and dial into, this creates a flow of sorts. Shoot the lock shot, then kick the ball into the camera with the upper right flipper. Let it bounce out of the slot machine and set up your next shot.

TZ has lots of great combo shots, WOZ doesn't. Shoot the ramps. Shoot the piano. Shoot the camera. Tie shots together for positive results and maintain control of the ball.

Basically, TZ is a control game with tons of great combos and satisfying shots. WOZ isn't - most of the shots are dangerous - the only real dangerous shot in TZ is one that sends the ball to the pop bumpers. WOZ feels like a flaifest and it's incredibly frustrating. The game is also incredibly short of satisfying shots. Shooting for button rollovers to light locks? That's totally lame in a modern-style game and it doesn't work for me.

I really, really don't see why people insist these games are similar. They are widebodies. That's about it. They are as similar as Popeye and Star Trek Next Gen.

I added a topic just for you, Levi. Kisses from Jersey!

I think you are saying "pick a game that is well-regarded generally, but I don't like." I suppose I could, but what's the point.

I really can't admit a game that I don't like is "great." If I thought it was great, I'd like it.

Is this like some kind of Kirk vs. the computer trick that is supposed to make my head explode?

Look...it's like this: 12 Years a Slave was supposed to be a great movie. Even won Best Picture. I hated it. So yeah...well-regarded is a good term. I'll clarify on your custom-made thread. Thanks!

Gotcha. That is certainly understandable.

Don't bother.

That just means it's another "What games do you think are overrated?" thread.

I hate that discussion. If there is one thing 15 years of internet forum discussion has taught me, it's that everything ever made is both overrated and underrated.

What about something like this? I totally get why LOTR is regarded the way it is. I can see the appeal and it does have a ton of great attributes. Tremendous theme integration, fantastic call outs, deep rules that actually make sense and take you on a journey.

But....it's not (or no longer is) for me. It's a horrible multiplayer game. Even though I play 90% of the time on my own, with a small collection I want them all to be multiplayer friendly. Because that's when they are the most fun....competing against your friends. I've also discovered that I'd rather play 30 games of IM vs one game of LOTR. At least that way I can walk away at any time and not feel trapped into a hour+ long game.

If you think LotR is a long player, you can make a few simple physical changes that will shorten your game times quite a bit. I did this with mine when I took it to Dory Hill knowing that Pin-Golf can take way too long if game times aren't managed well.

Big yellow rubber bumpers on both sides of the Merlin lane and the Aragorn Ramp. Remove inlane rubbers and outlane posts. Replace bats with lighting fleepers, adjust tilt to whisper setting. Your average game will now land somewhere between 9-13 million points. At least it does on mine.

All of these mods are simple to do, inexpensive and are easily reversible.

Enjoy!

I own both TZ and WOZ and find WOZ more mode based then TZ. WOZ has modes that must be unlocked and started such as the crystal ball modes and Munckin modes. There are also modes in WOZ that offer far more depth then those in TZ such as Fireball Frenzy, Emerald City MB, Rescue MB, Munchkin MB, Haunted MB, Battle The Witch, and Somewhere Over the Rainbow. Both are amazing games.

Yes I've also had this discussion (over and over). You can certainly make LOTR much harder and the games much shorter......but then you never achieve anything on it! It sort of defeats the whole purpose. I can see and do EVERYTHING on a game like JM in 15-20 minutes. On IM you could probably do it in 10; but a 20 minute game on LOTR and you've barely scratched the surface.

I want to do everything on a given pin.....I just don't want it to take an hour+. Some people LOVE that......I don't.

In this case, the purpose is simply scoring more points than your opponent. Nothing wrong with a balls-hard LOTR... in fact it can be fun to play that way. Whole different game.. you're much more careful with your shots, and starting ANY multiball is a rewarding challenge.

I would like to read the rules entirely through on the screen someday but more or less was just trying to figure things out while playing, my scores have increased since the first time playing. Also completed the ball save when ball goes down the left outline and then you have to hit 4 timed shots. I do like the big screen for pinball feels new to the game. I know some have mixed emotions but I like new technology brought to the game and for others to watch when not playing.

I just got my WOZ ECLE last week from a local guy. Great condition. It was 7100 delivered and set up. I am very happy with it. I have maybe a dozen plays on it now and still really need to learn the game. It plays so smooth, and everything in the game is appealing to me. I sold my IMVE to make room for it. Talk about polar opposites. I like long games with good flow like WOZ and My LOTR. If I want a fast game I will play my acdc or ST. I think WOZ is Fun and a great addition to my lineup. Would definitely do the same deal again. It is a Keeper for me.

Haha....sounds like we are opposite in the type of games we like (loving your IMVE btw!). I also love ST but that is my "long" game.

I don't know why you guys are bitching about TZ. If you're going to pick on game that seems to be well liked but a cheap piece of shit. Pick on AFM. The econoline flagship of the B/W era. No game is made more cheaply and have less shit on it, than that game. It's like they looked around the warehouse and saw all the extra parts they had sitting around, and slapped a game together to clear out common part material.

I had one for over a year. Did not enjoy it. Tried to but it just didn't work for me. Got rid of it and don't miss it at all.

Well then, make smaller incremental adjustments, not so hyooj rubber bumpers, a more liberal tilt. Or just don't play LotR because it doesn't appeal to you. Your call. What ever you play and wherever you go, I hope you enjoy pinball!

I'm trying to figure out how more crap on AFM would somehow make it a better game, and I'm drawing a blank.

Sometimes less is more bro.

I agree with you. But try telling that to the people bitching about the open PF on Hobbit (although it has to be open because it has four freakin' pop-ups!).

No wonder Neo is so impressed by Gottlieb/Premier 1990s titles.

They really broke the bank on those playfield designs!!!

I own one, and I find that my interest in the game waxes and wanes. I will go several weeks without playing it, and then fire it up for a few games, and find that the excitement quickly vanishes.

On the upside, aside from looking gorgeous, when you get things going, it is a lot of chaotic fun.

But, for me, there are several downsides to the game. It's widely acknowledged that there isn't a terrific amount of flow, and that's fine, but the design doesn't compensate for that very well, since the number of important shots you can make from a cradle are very limited.

I especially don't like how hard the game makes starting bonus scoring modes. For instance, to start the haunted modes, you need to feed the crystal ball scoop from the pop bumpers above. Even though you can mute the bumpers by holding the flipper buttons, most of the time, the ball trickles out of the pops and down to the flippers. Would be fair enough if the right orbit shot that feeds the pops from above wasn't stymied by the magnet freeze that drops it into the rollovers whenever you hit it from a left inlane feed. So, the solution most of us use is to ignore the skill shots and go for a hard plunge, so that you can complete the pops and the capture targets.

And that's another issue with the game - a lot of the important modifiers and modes rely upon random caroms. Light Dorothy capture requires zero skill, and while you can aim for A-L-L in BALL, hitting the B is more or less random chance. It's made worse by the fact that, despite these modes being important, lighting them also carries a high risk of an outlane drain, and TNPLH mode is not an easy rescue. Would have been better to have TOTO on the left outlane since TOTO is an easier rescue, and since the right outlane isn't fed by any high-risk shots (meaning that if you drain out the right outlane, it's generally your fault).

The witch? Random toss. Rescue? I hate the fact that getting back up there requires more and more Winkie shots, even if you've been doing really well up there.

I'll stop there. I do like WOZ, and as a showpiece and something to grab the interest of my guests, I am glad I own one. But, as good as it is from a pure tech standpoint, it's not an incredibly well designed game.

All pinball is fun.

You must not have played Shaq Attack.

True enough.....look at IM as well and that game is a home run in my opinion.

What are talking about! Shaq is the greatest game ever.......as a punishment to your friend/s for losing! Does not get much more fun in pinball than watching your buddy FORCED to play a full game of Shaq!

Oh...and make sure the volume is up.....then watch him pull his hair out by ball #2 "SHOOT THE BASKET!"

I like pinball "ahh lot" (in Jim Carrey's Dumb and Dumber voice), and though I don't own WoZ, I have played it before. It is very good! Even my wife and daughter who don't play pins liked it.

EDIT: It is impressive as hell!

I like my WOZ, it's loads of fun and very nice to look at. I am still considering selling though because I I think 6500 in my bank might be even nicer to look at!

Still holding on to it for now!!!

Love the changing moods with the lighting in Haunted Scoring mode and especially during Munchkin Multiball! That is so weird and cool it really sucks you in!

Tom