GEXCHANGE on Pinside

Fair point, but I really like the look of WOZ, as well as most of Balcer's past designs well enough. A13 was a really good design, with a couple tight shots. GZ and ST shoot nicely. Not a fan of the SWT or SP layouts, but they can't all be home runs. Lawlor and Borg, etc all have stinker layouts. To me, when buying for our home collections, the rule designer is damn near more important than the layout designer these days, especially with the derivative layouts we see (it's not the insane creativity of the 70s and 80s designs anymore).

Without Lyman doing those buildup jackpot rules, ACDC is a faster and more plastic T2 with great music. LOTR isn't a particularly ingenious or original design, but the rules are among the best ever created. XM is a killer combo blasting layout, but dot dot dot...

Preorders are always a gamble, but knowing you are going to have a great rule designer and pinball mind behind the game moves the odds in your favor.

thanks for the info. talked with him and he is a very good contact. will be my number 1 contact from now on for NIB. thanks.

Just got my Avengers from JJ delivered on wednesday. Was very easy and nice to deal with.

As far as the hobbit goes, I actually like the theme. Unlike WOZ. And the price isn't the reason I'm not buying either. It's all of the other factors that come into play that stop me. I have nothing against JJP, and want them to succeed. But I'm absolutely taking a wait and see approach.

I to find it hard to believe that already 900 people have bought a Hobbit. Distro's are almost certainly included.

I'm very curious how the game will look, but until it's almost here i'm not going to put money down that long in advance. With so many being produced i'm absolute sure i can get one should i be interested in it.

I ordered one and am about to make my second payment. I find what I am doing know different from ordering WOZLE way back when or something like BBB, Predator, Nemo or any of these future games from small manufacturers. I don't like theme #1 from JJP but believe they are up to something good and willing to risk it on the fact that I am supporting the hobby and may end up with a great game and a them I love. They have many trouble or we here wind they are going under and I will be on the refund bandwagon, hoping my preorder helps prevent this, but I am realistic and very uncomfortable how they are handling WOZ lack of code and being almost ready to ship and still not shipping. Risky business we shail see but I don't feel like a chump.

I bought NIB XMEN LE , and Avengers ( Hulk). Like both. Had the opportunity to see Hulk and WOZ side by side before my Hulk arrived. Not much difference in price, but from a quality of materials structure , fit and finish, WOZ looks like it should cost thousands more.

There are several hundred people that I have heard say they are in. Nmeun above said he has sold 10 himself, 4 (40%) of which are not even on Pinside. Those are pretty big numbers. I think everybody that is saying the 900 number is BS are wrong. Wrong because the numbers actually support the 900 sold and wrong for calling Jack a liar. That is what is being done by saying it is BS.

I didn't call Jack a liar. I did call the 900 number to be BS. I think he needs the money coming in to help get all the WOZ orders out the door and still have some cash to make TH happen. But my biggest reason to think that it is, as exciting of a title The Hobbit is, I find it hard to believe 900 people will start shelling out $$ on his timeline. Especially with the incredibly long delays completing WOZ. Don't get me wrong, I want him to succeed and think his build quality is top notch.

So many of these threads about Jersey Jack.

At least he isn't selling a Dreamliner.

Please, GM's bloated unions would take August off and retool in September for October. They would work in December given a month off 3 months ago.

Blind faith.

At least with Stern your cash isn't tied up for 2 plus years while you hold zilch. In many cases there are people that have huge chunks of cash tied up on 2 machines and neither of which are sitting in their gameroom. That's nuts.

these 900 persons bought a new car model without trying...?

Well you do go into a movie theater without seeing the movie.

And you can always walk out.

Jake is making way too many LEs.
1500 LE machines IS NOT a "limited edition". It's more like 1500 deluxe editions.

I find it curious that the focus is on selling TH, when it should be all about moving as many WOZs as possible at this time. Is anyone ordering them from having seen them on demo locations?

Yes we did... same as BBB, WOZ, TH and others who are in for BHZA

900 on pre order doesn't surprise me one bit. This just shows that point blank Jack picked the wrong theme for the first pinball machine. Will he every admit it............NO, "We wanted to bring pinball to all generations............blah blah." Pinball in it's prime was a male dominated game, with a teen+ target base. Jack disregarded the consumer base and went rogue. It will prove to be a costly mistake in the short term. I will bet you the Stern team was laughing off their chairs when they heard he pick WOZ. They were not laughing when they heard he chose The Hobbit. All you WOZ lovers that say, "I like the WOZ theme". Bull Shit!.........You suffer from LT (Low Testosterone). Don't worry though, there is help, go buy an ACDC premium and play to your Testosterone level go back to normal and you will sell your WOZ spot.

Relax people, this rant is a joke laced with some truth....

The thing to remember is that even if 900 are claimed already, all that really means is that those people put down a small deposit so far. A handful probably paid in full to get the "free" shipping, but I'd imagine 99% of them have only had the $500 deposit put down.

I think a lot of people plunked down the deposit to secure their spot until they can see the layout and then they'll decide whether or not to stay in depending on how they feel about it at that point.

I didn't go in on Hobbit for a number of reasons, but I can thank all the Hobbit preorder people for providing completion funds for WOZ. Thanks guys!

The Hobbit isn't actually $7500. You have to factor in a 2+ year interest-free loan you're giving.

I'd imagine. Seems cash flow is an issue.

Tough to tell much on the 900. I hope they make and ship a ton of games to all sorts of buyers. The more successful companies in the industry the better for everyone.

As predicted...

Research what jack has said and done in the past and you wouldn't be so quick to come to this conclusion.

True. Had I invested the $6500 for 2 years at 5% (and where the heck do you find that deal anyway?), I earn around $650. But WOZ now costs me $7500. So your investment strategy just cost me $350.

Also don't forget to factor in the rising cost of pinball in general. I committed to a $6500 price tag for WOZ two years ago. I thought it was crazy money, but I also wanted to support JJP. Now I look around and see what $6500 gets you and feel I got a screaming deal on my WOZ.

I was tempted to preorder, it's a dream theme for me. And I'd like nothing more than a kick butt Hobbt pin. But with no info on the machine, not even a playfield sketch, I just can't. I won't buy a Stern until the software's at an acceptable place and the manufacturing bugs are worked out. I can't commit 7.5k without so much as a picture.

It's impossible to say what WOZ is worth because you can't buy one. You can buy a promise of one coming some day, but that's not an actual pinball machine. We'll see if it was ultimately a good investment when machines are actually for sale.

As for other machines, you make a great point that using the $6500 toward other machines would have been a great investment. So would an S&P index fund. The interest free loan still has to be factored into the cost of the product if you're comparing it to a company that is actually shipping titles.

Yup...I got mine coming for $6000 with me driving a couple of hours to pick it up.

So how much would $6500 have netted me in an S&P index fund for 2 years? How does that compare to the extra $1000 WOZ would have cost by waiting 2 years?

I think we all get it that paying for a pin without playing it is not for everyone, the same way that no theme appeals to everyone. Those of us who have invested in WOZ, and/or have taken the first step on The Hobbit obviously believe in what JJP is doing, YMMV, but why some on here seem hell bent on being negative is beyond me.

About the only reasonings I can come up with for openly hoping that JJP will fail is that they can sit back and say,"See I was right not to give them any money, I'm so smart" or they are afraid of JJP succeeding because they didn't get in on a good deal, both pretty pathetic reasons if you ask me.

None of us know what you can actually buy a WOZ for because they aren't available. If it's at $7500 when it becomes available, it'll probably end up being a wash or perhaps a small gain for you (depending on how you invest/use your excess money). Not sure what's controversial about the statement that the interest-free loan has to be factored into the cost.

If I buy a car for $20k and the dealership tells me they'll deliver it in 3 years, I didn't buy a $20k car. And I can't compare it to a $20k car that I can buy and drive off the lot right away.

So you're operating under the assumption that no pre-order machines are actually available? I can't call a distributor and order WOZ? I couldn't have ordered Avengers early? Or BHZA, Or any Stern released in the past 2 years. Seems like you're just throwing dust in the air.

If your point is you should never pre-order anything because you don't know what you can get it for after release, then I get that.

actually I did invest in the S&P...since Jan 11, the fund grew about 16% which is a healthy return. So on 6500 investment..you would have netted $1040...but hindsight is 20/20..and you could have easlily lost that much. In any case..i did both...a woz and the s&p. One is for fun and one is for investing...two different objectives in life

in loving memory of... "The family arcade"

Seems a strange decision to use the same designer for the second pin as would be far more preferable to have a different one. Wonder why Nordman was not retained? Keith re rules - great.

No, my point was that if you pre-order something you have to factor in the interest-free loan you are giving to the person you are purchasing from. It's part of the cost. This was in response to someone who was comparing the price of a Stern machine that is readily available to the public to a WOZ that is not. I'm saying it's difficult to compare prices between the two at this point, there are other variables in the equation.

So did I. Was just playing along with the "investment" argument, which I already knew was a push.

Pinballs are not my investment vehicle of choice (although perhaps they should have been!). This is my play money, and I choose to throw it at whatever looks like the most fun. Not the best investment.

I must have missed the posts of people openly hoping that JJP will fail. I've seen a lot of people critical of JJP, including many WOZ buyers in the case of the Hobbit. But haven't seen people openly wanting them to fail.

Make that 901

I fail to see the difference since he was the one to say the 900 number.

Great points, can't disagree with any of them.

People (in this case toasterdog) often disagree with, or call bs on, publicly stated sales numbers that come from private companies. It's typically not considered a great affront toward the company or it's owner to do so. Private companies often inflate sales numbers for various reasons. And most of the time they aren't legally required to provide the public with accurate info either. That's why they are private.

And usually none of the people, on either side, use the term lying. It's called business. And it's not a big deal.

BS no way 900 have been ordered

None of us have any way of knowing if this is true or not, but it's not out of the realm of possibility. Plenty of people have seen the quality of the WOZ build, and take a very popular license (Hobbit) mixed with the fact that JJP knows they need to surpass LOTR, and I could see this being potentially true.

You drinking this early in the morning?

You are welcome to stop by in a few months and play some WOZ and ACDC. Then we can see how bad JJP is "suffering".

What's with all this interest free loan stuff? I've paid $500. The payments are very gradual. It's kind of nice, being able to save up for it. Almost like putting something on layaway. I'm not throwing it on a credit card and being charged interest.

There is a chance that JJP will go public by then and change the bidness model. JJP could be a division of, say JJ Enterprises and also offer slot machines. Although that business oligopoly has topped out with IGT under seige of the former Chairman and a few investors as well as the reccent announced closure of AC Coin/ AC Slots.

Nothing else to B*tch about, gotta throw crap and hope something sticks.

LTG : )

Do you really think they would do that? That would likely mean giving up a significant amount of power for Jack, along with having to publicly open the books. The way they are operating now, and the requirements that change would bring, seem to be at serious odds with each other. And unless they had to in order to survive, I don't know why they would do it.

Going public isn't a survival technique. It's actually the opposite. In most cases it causes more harm then good.

Look at facebook. Prime example of a borked IPO from the start. They are climbing back out of the cellar but its still pretty bad.

My 401k has made 15.5% over the last two years. It's a mix of large cap/ Mid+small cap / bonds pretty much 33/33/33% splits there...

I'm no good with compound interest and all that, but if your money made a FLAT 15% increase, it would be 975 bucks....just shy of the 1000 target to beat.

I see what you're saying. I was just thinking along the lines of JJP not wanting to bring in outside money unless it was absolutely necessary. Doing that brings in a lot of issues I would think they don't want to deal with.