(Topic ID: 278480)

All displays flicker (flash gordon) - not sure what to try next

By EvanDickson

3 years ago


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DisplayBlankingSignal.jpg
DisplayInterruptGenerator.jpg
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#13 3 years ago
Quoted from Bakerman:

Check pin 3 for 320Hz. Yep, use the ground braid as reference, or better, clip your scope ground to TP4 on the MPU.

On Bally games with 7 digit displays, the display interrupt generator actually runs faster at 430Hz. These MPU boards have a different resistor at R21 for the 555 timer. See this thread with photos:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/two-bits-mpu-with-flickering-strobing-displays-#post-5408121

Quoted from EvanDickson:

I bumped it up to 192V

If you bumped the HV to 192V and the pot was near the middle, it says the HV 160uF 350V capacitor is possibly ok. Measure how much AC ripple you're getting.

Check the "blanking" signal to the displays. Pin 10 on the display connector. It should be pulsing.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

To measure AC ripple, I just check for / measure AC Voltage at one of the poles of the cap?

Yes, meter set to AC high voltage and a meter probe on each leg of that HV capacitor at the top left corner of the solenoid driver board.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

it oscillates beween 0.35V and 0.15V AC

Sounds ok to me. Anyway if you've got another Solenoid Driver Board, try it to rule the current SDB out.

Get a logic probe on that blanking signal I mentioned at the end of post #13.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

Is that pin 10 on any one of the display boards' connectors?

Pin 10 at any of the displays. That signal is daisy chained from one display to another. It comes from the MPU board at J1 pin 10 and is an orange wire.

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

Yes, pulsing, square wave < 200 kHz, if I'm reading my probe instructions correctly.

It should briefly pulse high at around 430Hz which is every time a digit is written to the displays. If you're getting 200kHz, that's way over the top.

What frequency did you measure on the pin 3 output of the 555 timer at U12? It should be around 430Hz.
BTW does this have a Bally MPU board or some aftermarket board? If it's a Bally board, what's the silkscreened date on the bottom right corner?

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

Silkscreened date (original Bally MPU) is 10-79.

Quoted from EvanDickson:

then I'm getting 343 Hz on pin 3 of U12

Your MPU board dated 1979 came from an older game with 6 digit displays so is running the display frequency generator (555 timer) at a slower speed. Some people will notice the displays on your game strobing a little and it might annoy them. Others less sensitive won't notice.

Quoted from EvanDickson:

113 Hz on the blanking signal for the displays.

That blanking speed doesn't sound right. The blanking signal is software controlled by the display interrupt service routine that happens every pulse out of the 555 timer (i.e. in your case blanking should be around 343Hz).
I'll have to confirm this on one of my games later - can't do it at this minute.

With reference to the video in your first post, it shows all the displays flickering badly. Is this how it really looks on the game or does the flickering appear worse in the video due to camera sync artifacts?

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

When I first got this thing home last weekend, the displays were fine, there was no flicker. Then they all started flickering intermittently

What changed between it working and when the flickering started?
If the flickering is intermittent, have you wiggled connectors to see if there's any bad connections?

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

It's ok to go below spec on the capacitance? I thought you could substitute with either higher capacitance or higher voltage rating, but not go lower?

You won't find a 160uF capacitor. It's a non-standard capacitance value - strange choice back in the day really.
The part Ken listed is fine. I install 180uF, 105 degree radial caps since I'm not in the US.

While you wait for the replacement HV capacitor, reflow the current HV capacitor solder joints in case they're cracked - does happen. And while you're there implement the ground mod for it if it hasn't been done yet.

#34 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

I'm a dummy for not thinking of just using a radial.

Order the capacitor Ken mentioned. It's a large physical size so should have a long life. Smaller physical capacitor size doesn't equal better.

#35 3 years ago

Since you have an oscilloscope, you can visualise the ripple on the high voltage rail to the displays which will tell you if the HV capacitor is your problem.
First check if your oscilloscope can handle 200 volts and take care.
Make sure to set the X1/X10 switch on the oscilloscope probe to X10 so you don't damage the oscilloscope (this divides the input voltage by 10).
Set the oscilloscope to AC and highest voltage setting then adjust until you can get a reading.

Here are snapshots from my 6 digit display machine. Display Blanking and Display Interrupt generator speed are about the same (allow for variance/error in reading on my ancient oscilloscope).

Last picture is the high voltage ripple - I get around 300 millivolts. My high voltage is set to 180 volts.

DisplayInterruptGenerator.jpgDisplayInterruptGenerator.jpg
DisplayBlankingSignal.jpgDisplayBlankingSignal.jpg
DisplayHighVoltageRipple.jpgDisplayHighVoltageRipple.jpg

#37 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

I replaced the solenoid / power driver cap 160 uF / 300 V with 180 uF/350V. No change to the displays.

The AC ripple you previously measured indicated the old cap was doing its job. At least you have a fresh minty cap there now to last for years to come.

Quoted from EvanDickson:

I also replaced polyester capacitor C16 .1 uF 100v with a polyester 0.1uF 400V.
...
Resistor R21 is 24K.

You should be getting around 430Hz out of the 555 timer now.

Can you measure the voltages at the test points on one of the displays BUT use TP3 on the display as your ground connection for the multi-meter.
Do test points TP1 (5V) and TP2 (190V) measure ok?

#40 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

I'm wrong. With fresher eyes I get 6 flashes. There's no solenoid power at TP3.

Might have blown the solenoid fuse on the rectifier board. The MPU board needs to see solenoid power at J4 pin 15 and uses it as the "Zero Crossing" signal. The last MPU LED flash on power up tests the presence of this signal.
If you reflowed that connector carefully check there's no accidental solder bridges on the pin header.

#42 3 years ago
Quoted from EvanDickson:

TP1 on the rectifier board is now 7.8V, which is a little high

The feature lamp voltage is known to be a bit high in these games. As lamps illuminate (presuming you're using incandescents) the voltage will drop under load.

Quoted from EvanDickson:

TP5 is 20V instead of 43.

Half voltage is usually indicative of an open circuit diode inside the bridge. You need to disconnect the 600 ohm resistor (R1) that's across the bridge to test the bridge properly, otherwise you'll get misleading readings.

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