Protected by Cyberdyne!

^ This guy gets it!

When I worked for corporate, they called it:
"Embrace the suck".

For my All Access dollars, could I walk up to a machine or query it remotely, and see how it is playing before I drop my money in?

Could I see if the switches are all working? What code version its running? How often a ball search has been happening?

I recently tried to play an Avengers and there was plastic added to the right looping ramp which rejected my first two balls, and the third shot got stuck in the wireform (was a perfect fast shot). This could have prevented me from wasting my time if it showed no one could make that right ramp.

Sorry, but very wrong. There’s no outside initiated inbound communication from the WAN to the pin unless you port forward to its private IP address. So all you got is inside initiated outbound communication and what’s it going to talk to other than Stern’s servers?

Your Ethernet chip flaw argument is due to things like Intel out of band management; this shit aint going to have that lol!

There’s no surface area other than a LAN attack or an attack on infrastructure the pin initiates communication with.

Your argument would only hold true if you direct connect your pin to the internet with a public IP address, but this isn’t 20 years ago, and no one accidentally does that these days. Everything is NAT’d/PAT’d with ingress from the WAN completely closed off unless you open it, but that’s dumb, and on you.

Edit: added a bunch of words to clarify as I’m not sure I’m taking to someone that knows IT, so added things to assume I wasn’t, or at least thinks they do; also phone autocorrect BS like 3 times fml

THAT would be really cool. Scan, eh, it scores 68% in playability, what a shit unmaintained machine - pass

We can only dream

Okay, assuming for a moment that NAT slipstreaming doesn't exist for a moment, let's pretend that man-in-the-middle attacks don't exist either. You keep workin' on that, 'k? (And how many home and business owners change their default password on all those Comcast routers and modems? )

I’ll reply…

NAT slipstreaming requires the user to visit a website; I’ll let that bake in, from a pinball machine

A MitM attack is again between you and Stern and would require something like an attacker stealing a Stern certificate… on Stern not the player

And what the does not changing default u/p got to do about anything? I know of no SOHO router that has open admin from the WAN; you need to turn that on, and that’s on you… and you have a hell of a lot more to worry about than someone hacking your pin that you can just throw a newly formatted SD card in

I really don’t mean to be rude here, but as a CIO for nearly 20 years, this is why I give aptitude tests. 90% of candidates THINK they know IT and try to use fancy jargon to prove the point, but it’s laughable at best

Willing to be proven wrong, that means I learn and am better for it, but there’s nothing here yet

Edit: autocorrect - blegh

If scanning a QR code on the machine makes the machine perform differently than if the code is not scanned, I could see this being a problem in tournaments. Tournament directors might mention something like "No one is allowed to enable the special bridge multiball on Godzilla with their insider access QR code" since not every person would have that same access in the tournament. However, if all the QR scan does is allow you to have a chance to win a free T-Shirt, then it should not be an issue.

And hat. For the love of potatoes - don't forget you can win a hat, too!

The only thing I don't like is the automatic renewal option which I haven't looked at to see if I can opt out after subscribing and wait and renew manually each year if I want to - no different than Spooky's club.

Congratulations, you might have crafted the most depressing sentence I've ever read on Pinside.

Honestly, I would assume that if you put the game into Tourney mode, the QR reader would be disabled. Assuming the games are home-based. For on-location play, then yeah, would need to make sure that noone scans.

And I wonder in a multi-layer game, if one person scans, and the others don't, does only that player get the added features, and the others don't? Or does it/would it activate for all players in the game?

Many of Comcast's modems (which handle LAN DHCP and routing) have default passwords installed - USUALLY they are limited by the incoming IP, but that can be faked.

And while we're drifting off topic and couldn't care about anyone's credentials here -

What do you think the game is doing when it contacts Stern's servers? Even a REST API or opening a socket could allow that.

Think anybody will drop their pants and put their butt on the QR scanner ?

Only if you have a QR tattoo in that area.

Just imagine if a subscription fee is per game...

Is there any source to verify that it will be a monthly fee, rather than the annual fee currently for insider?

... I've seen worse.

Nothing in that article mentions a monthly fee.

Third party services like privacy.com have that handled. Turn off the card after payment.

This is old thinking... the thing consumes internet services - that gives vectors. Protocol stack, DNS, MITM, OpenSSL, etc. Most of these in the wild will be put on network that is not secure so dependent services will be points of attack. Getting the device to talk to spoofed servers, then attacking it that way, etc. The old "there are no listening ports so we are invincible" mindset is so bad and out of date. You think Stern is gonna be patching zero day stuff in the multitude of services and libraries they are undoubtedly building their services upon? And this doesn't even begin to cover what happens if someone targets the servers.

Just how well do you think the sandbox'ing is in a platform that has never had to deal with running alongside exposed services or tasks of different privileges?

I don’t like this internet connectivity at all. I don’t even have a QR code reader on my iphone5s. I still play my XBOX 360 and have never connected to internet. In fact I can’t, because I don’t even have high speed phone or cable, no WiFi, just directv and a mobile hotspot. But even if I did and could it isn’t for me. If I were interested in a pinball, I would just play it how it comes and forget the extra content like I do with my xbox360. I play alone and am not interested in online tourneys or earning trinkets or badges from challenges.

But if online video games, pogo, Xbox live, candy crush, mmorpg, Fortnite, etc are a fair indication I bet most people will soon be obsessed by this crap and will pay plenty for extras. Saving progress in pinball could be big, but not my bag.

They have used this idea on some slot machines like Lord of the Rings. You could print a voucher which saved your progress for next time. I don’t think it was very popular. But no one has the video slots in their home. I am curious how it works out in home vs. location. For connected matches how do you know how people have their games set up? Outlane posts, level, tilt, etc. I see problems.

Again… all the jargon. And we’re arguing over something that can be fixed in 5 minutes by reflashing your SD card. We do not live in the age of hacking for the fuck of it, and there’s zero money to be made from hacking pinball machines unless you target Stern, which I said from my og post was the only concern… and that’s on them. Non-issue.

You do actually. Just point your camera at a QR code and see what happens. No app needed.

Any exposure to internet is a potential security risk, no matter what hardware or software the device is running. How big of a risk is debatable but kind of off topic.

Personally I have zero interest in internet connected pinball machines and I work daily with system integration and system development/programming. I might be old school in this regard sure, but I like static pins with non changing ruleset and a predictable behavior.

When pins are connected to internet there will be a slippery slope were manufacturers slowly tries more and more stuff that will cost the end consumer $$; monthly fees for different services, pay for upgraded software/rules/bugfixes, pay for DLC active for X months, pay to share highscores with others outside your house and so on.

Some will argue all this is ok as the fee "will be small for a machine", but what about those with 10 or 40 machines? The cost will add up one way or another I'm sure.

Oh, you sold your game? New owner have to "unlock it" by paying $$ to be able to play it.

Oh, you bought that new fancy expensive topper? Guess what, you have to pay $$ to download/activate the software for it!

Oh, you want to compete in online tourney X? Sure, just pay some $$ first!

The possibilities are endless to make stuff worse for the end user

Manufacturers will try everything they can to squeeze out a few more dollars. No thanks to all that!

All above is only making me even more happy that I only collect the classic 90's B/W games, no chance they will ever be internet enabled, just like I want it.

You will end up with nib games beeing skeleton functional. Bells and whistles from updates.
Probably also means stern gets a healthy deal of the action on the second hand market, since the new owner will need updates aswell..

Luckily, they are 80 years worth of machines that aren't connected to a paywall. I'll continue to invest in those machines and stern can go f right off

Sort of. The user within the NAT'd internal network, will click on a link - not from a pinball machine. This will allow ANY device in that - probably home and potentially a pinball machine - exposed externally. Slipstreaming 2.0

I'd hope that have some solid pen testing for this app anyway and for their broader hosted infrastructure.

I have a bad feeling that this is going to get very pricey. For example: Fee of ?$30/month? Is that going to be user-based or machine-based? What happens for owners with more users / more machines? Maybe a 'family plan' for a special price of just 2X's the individual plan?

Then, if this works for stern, inevitably the other manufacturers will all follow suit. Soon we'll be paying monthly fees to all 5 modern manufacturers...or missing out on what? Content? Stairway to Heaven mode? Mando season 3 quests? HW2-17? Hoping it's just nothing more than a headset chat feature where you can tell your buddy to 'shoot the spinner' and talk trash, so it's an easy pass.

Let's see...hopefully my fears are all wrong and this will be awesome.

There is no evidence of a monthly fee.

Ah yes, good point. But I would be shocked if a pinball machine would have any open ports at all; it doesn’t need to listen for anything. I’d expect all communication to originate from the pin, making the device invisible on a LAN. Could be wrong, but I’m not sure why they’d have it any other way.

Either way, it’s still an SD card reformat and move on scenario … unless there’s some level of access to play with power, PCBs, etc. but then we get back to the “where’s the money in it.” Hold you ransom and threaten to blow your machine… wipe. If they just blow your machine… no ransom, no reason.

We specifically asked George Gomez if their platform would be open / provide APIs (can it integrate with Scorbit etc) and this was his response:

GG: It is not an open platform. Interaction with other systems is possible only in tournament environments where the Insider Connected server would provide an API for integration of services.

Full interview here https://ausretrogamer.com/discussing-the-stern-pinball-insider-connected-platform-with-george-gomez/

But it's a slippery slope that seems to be occurring often these days. Monthly fees are a way for continuous revenue stream instead of a one time fee.

Perhaps you should have ended your sentence with 'yet'?

Subscription != monthly fee

The current Insider program has a free option and offers a yearly subscription. No one has said what the details are for the new program. Claiming it's going to be a monthly fee isn't accurate at this point.

I'm with you 100%. Personally I would hate to see Stern impose a monthly fee or even a cost for home users to get code updates etc.
I expect Stern is well aware that such a change would be very poorly received and would affect home sales.
Until they announce that there's a monthly fee, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Should others choose to assume the sky is falling, that's on them. Too many real things to worry about in life as of late to get caught up in "what if, what if" when there's no supporting evidence.

George Gomez is set to speak about the new tech at Expo at the end of October so we'll probably hear more then.

You aren't the target market for this feature, clearly.

If you don't want to participate in it, don't. Pinball machines will continue to work exactly like you are expecting without signing in or making use of the system.

Depends on how you look at it.
You could say that $40/year is a monthly fee of $3.33

I would hope there'd be something in hardware which would prevent that Of course some malware technically could reprogram node boards, but fry them? I would very much hope not.

Exactly right!!!

How long before we see pre-godzilla titles advertised on the secondary market listing old code versions as a positive feature?

"Don't buy Jurassic Park NIB. My game is in mint condition and has code version x.xx so you can y."

I doubt this will be a thing.

Disable automatic updates and continue to load updates on a USB stick.

I’m shocked you even got a 360…the entire concept was that it was connected. I have a 360, and never played online games with it - but the system itself always had updates and pretty much every disc game is incomplete or has bugs - they need updates. I think some games won’t even run if the system is running old firmware.

You could say that a free subscription is a fee of $0.00 a month too.

Software only subscription models typically remove the up front cost... (no $500 for MS Office... just pay $50/month)...

In this model with hardware... it is a super slippery slope unless they are willing to lower up front capital costs to offset the ongoing future costs...

(Ultimately, software as a service relies on longer term spends to make up for up front reduction in one-time pricing... WHEN IS STERN GOING TO DO THIS??? hint hint... I doubt they will.... this stuff scares me as I do agree it makes it high potential the hardware will be an expensive box of lights with no function...

imagine the possibilities if stern decides to use ‘connected’ to leverage demand for cashless transactions

how about this

stern takes a bite of coin drop by offering tiered subscriptions that include gameplays. something like gold tier includes unlimited plays on any connected machine at any location. silver includes a limited number, or your choice of 5 locations, etc.

meanwhile they hit both ends by charging an insider connected fee for routine connected features to both operators (pay a nominal fee to become a connected location and we will push market you to our subscribers) and players (as already advertised)

then they offer to waive the fee for operators that become ‘premium’ sites by opting into the tiered plan - i.e. give stern a cut of coin drop from tiered subscriber play in exchange for enhanced push marketing. this comes with an offer to take a graduated cut of the tiered subscription plays based on number of people the operator can recruit for each level. (add only 5 new gold subscriptions per month and to earn 95% of take on every subscription play at your location, instead of the usual 85%)

operators decide to do it because it increases monthly take, reduces marketing cost, and stabilizes monthly cash flow a little. players decide to do it because they knew they were going to play 10 games a month at $1 anyway and they like the idea that the more they play the cheaper it gets

Once again Stern has misread the demographic. Example:

Old? No. Older than young? Yes. 40’s to 70’s. That’s the target audience. We came from a time that you rebuilt things and human talking interaction was the information hub.

So Stern creates a cheaper and cheaper increasingly throwaway product now with internet connectivity. I have zero interest.

Before the twenties and thirties get all butthurt over exclusion keep in mind you’ll have your own demographic, just not yet.

You’re the exception not the rule. At least according to your internet.

Yep. Taking a page directly from the Golden Tee Playbook:

Golden Tee Online Subscription* (Optional)- $9.99 a month OR $99.95 a year upon purchase

Maximize your Showpiece™! In order to compete in online contests and take full advantage of the features, a subscription is required.

I think they understand their current demographic quite well and have realised that new people coming into the hobby and expanding their demographic is good for their bottom line. Doing what they can to support younger people coming into the hobby is actually a very wise business move.

It's funny when Pinsiders claim that Stern doesn't understand something that Stern hasn't even explained yet.