Alien Poker - Locked on Solenoid during tests.

(Topic ID: 228651)

Alien Poker - Locked on Solenoid during tests.


By drocelot

80 days ago



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  • 51 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 23 days ago by drocelot
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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Williams_System-6-7_Driver-Board_schematic.pdf (PDF preview)
Williams_System-6-7_Driver-Board_layout.pdf (PDF preview)

There are 51 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 80 days ago

Hi All, I recently picked up a Alien Poker, I've changed the capacitors and updated the power diodes. Its now firing up nicelsy. However Fuse 2 will blow, this is associated with the Left Kicker Solenoid it will stay hard on when turning on. (This has now been resolved with replacing the 7402).

Now when I run the solennoid tests the left kicker will fire up and stay hard on and burn the fuse at F2.

I've changed the diode, the pre driver the driver, the 7404 and the 7408.

#2 80 days ago

Does it lock on at power up or when you start a game? If the former, it could be the pre driver or an ic controlling that. If the latter, check the switch.

#3 80 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Does it lock on at power up or when you start a game? If the former, it could be the pre driver or an ic controlling that. If the latter, check the switch.

Hi it locks as the game turns on, so within 2 seconds of starting the machine.

#4 80 days ago

Bad transistor on the driver board. Change out the pre-driver while you're there.
-Mike

#5 80 days ago
Quoted from Grizlyrig:

Bad transistor on the driver board. Change out the pre-driver while you're there.
-Mike

I went down and got some replaced the predriver and the driver transistor. Unfortunately its still happening....

#6 80 days ago
Quoted from drocelot:

I went down and got some replaced the predriver and the driver transistor. Unfortunately its still happening....

Replace the IC attached to the pre driver, and maybe the one attached to that one too

#7 80 days ago

Check your pop bumper switch to see if it is stuck closed.

#8 80 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Replace the IC attached to the pre driver, and maybe the one attached to that one too

I'm beginning to suspect that, do you know what the model number is ?

#9 80 days ago

Check the switch first.
Next you can try replacing U8.
This is a 7402 chip.
I'll attach some schematics for System 6 driver board.
Look for solenoid 19, driven by Q6.

Also I would recommend putting in a Special Solenoid Saver Board, which fuses each Special Solenoid.
https://nvram.weebly.com/repair--conversion-kits.html

And a Bridge Board which can prevent your game from catching fire when a short occurs in one of the rectifiers in the backbox.
http://www.inkochnito.nl (click on the Bridge Board image).
Available at RTBB https://www.rtbb.com.au/product/williams-data-east-bridge-board/

Peter
http://www.inkochnito.nl

Williams_System-6-7_Driver-Board_layout.pdfWilliams_System-6-7_Driver-Board_schematic.pdf
#10 80 days ago

Hi Inkochinto, awesome post !

The left kicker is driven by Q12 which I've replaced, would it be U6 that requires the change ?

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#11 79 days ago

Are you sure you are looking at the right Special Solenoid?
In the first post you say "Left Bumper", so I assumed it was the Left Pop Bumper (Solenoid 19, Q6).
If you are talking about the Left Slingshot (Solenoid 22, Q12), then you should try and replace U9.
If things still does not work, U7 is next in line.

AlienPoker (resized).jpg
#12 79 days ago
Quoted from drocelot:

I went down and got some replaced the predriver and the driver transistor. Unfortunately its still happening....

If you are shotgunning, randomly replacing things you are just gambling with guesses. The best way to repair the failure is to check signals, troubleshoot to locate the problem. Easiest to do this with an oscilloscope or logic probe, but I can do it with a DMM as well just looking at voltages. You have identical circuits driving each solenoid output that helps with comparing each section.

Don't forget that if you are talking about the special solenoids (pops and slings) these can be activated directly by a playfield switch. In Inkochnitos diagram above, you'd need to check the state of the switch solenoid 6 trigger and make sure IC7 pin 9 isn't seeing a stuck closed switch (active low)

#13 77 days ago

Hi this is the offending Soleniod

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#14 77 days ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

If you are talking about the Left Slingshot (Solenoid 22, Q12), then you should try and replace U9.
If things still does not work, U7 is next in line.

#15 77 days ago

....

You are talking about the Left Slingshot (Solenoid 22, Q12), then you should try and replace U9.
If things still does not work, U7 is next in line.

#16 77 days ago

some times its the diode on the pop bumper switch. you can cut it it and se if that works

#17 77 days ago
Quoted from oldmanpinball:

some times its the diode on the pop bumper switch. you can cut it it and se if that works

You cannot cut a diode off in a switch matrix. You will confuse the switch matrix and a lot if bad things will happen.

#18 76 days ago
Quoted from oldmanpinball:

some times its the diode on the pop bumper switch. you can cut it it and se if that works

I've done that but thanks for replying !

#19 76 days ago

sorry i meant the Capacitor

#20 76 days ago
Quoted from oldmanpinball:

sorry i meant the Capacitor

Figured that was what you meant after the post. It's all good.

#21 75 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Figured that was what you meant after the post. It's all good.

Which cap is that the one on the switch

#22 74 days ago

Ok I replaced U9 and the soleniod doesn't stay latched on.. I did the tests the left slingshot fire then the fuse blew.

Also no the displays do not work except for an orange dot in player 1

#23 74 days ago

Check if the slingshot coil is connected correctly.
Red wire on the banded side of the diode....

#24 74 days ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

Check if the slingshot coil is connected correctly.
Red wire on the banded side of the diode....

Hi yes it is, I have also replaced it

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#25 73 days ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

Check if the slingshot coil is connected correctly.
Red wire on the banded side of the diode....

yes it is

#26 73 days ago

So i have traced the wires and replaced all these components. When I run through the tests the Left Kicker will stay on and blow the fuse. Before it just did it at boot.

I've checked the switches, I guess the next is to replace the 7408 which is IC7

Thoughts ?

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#27 73 days ago
Quoted from drocelot:

So i have traced the wires and replaced all these components. When I run through the tests the Left Kicker will stay on and blow the fuse. Before it just did it at boot.
I've checked the switches, I guess the next is to replace the 7408 which is IC7
Thoughts ?[quoted image]

Try it with 2j13 removed, see if it still locks on in test.

#28 73 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Try it with 2j13 removed, see if it still locks on in test.

I just did that and ran the test and it still locked on.

#29 73 days ago
Quoted from drocelot:

I just did that and ran the test and it still locked on.

IC7 next then

#30 73 days ago

Many technicians are taught to approach triage situations using the “shotgun” method—replace all major components that usually are the source of machine problems. This is the most expensive way to repair a machine, and it doesn’t always work. Troubleshooting by testing signals with a DMM, oscilloscope, or lohic probe and understanding the function of these components and how the machine is supposed to work will get you there faster and more efficiently.

#31 73 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Many technicians are taught to approach triage situations using the “shotgun” method—replace all major components that usually are the source of machine problems. This is the most expensive way to repair a machine, and it doesn’t always work. Troubleshooting by testing signals with a DMM, oscilloscope, or lohic probe and understanding the function of these components and how the machine is supposed to work will get you there faster and more efficiently.

Yep I agree I just don't have those tools.

#32 72 days ago
Quoted from drocelot:

Yep I agree I just don't have those tools.

Theres only so much you can do without the tools or skills. Good luck.

#33 72 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Theres only so much you can do without the tools or skills. Good luck.

I have tools such as a DMM . I have worked in electronics (I've designed various equipment sold worldwide). I have very little knowledge of 1980's electronics, I'm simply reaching out to advice on historic.

#34 72 days ago
Quoted from zacaj:

IC7 next then

Right that has been replaced, unfortunately the solenoid is still locking on with the tests.

So far I have replaced these items alongside the diode across the solenoid. Now im wondering if the PIA chip at IC5. Frustrating as I have been able to get the parts readily.

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#35 72 days ago
Quoted from drocelot:

I have tools such as a DMM . I have worked in electronics (I've designed various equipment sold worldwide). I have very little knowledge of 1980's electronics, I'm simply reaching out to advice on historic.

Perfect...then use the DMM to check the pulse train instead of shotgunning. I don't own a logic probe and use the o'scope little in pinball except for audio troubles. I'd rather not drag out a lot of stuff, so mostly I use my DMM to see what is going on. Put the game in solenoid test, put the DMM in DC volts, and look for a positive or negative stuck signal or a pulse jump negative or positive. Works pretty well. Then start somewhere in the middle of the drive circuit looking for that pulse, comparing to an adjacent drive circuit for reference. Saves a lot of time and money.

I'd start at the 7408 comparing input pins 9 & 10 of the problem channel to a working adjacent channel, such as pins 12 & 13, and the output pin of the problem channel pin 8 to output pin of the working channel pin 11. This would give me an idea of what is going on and which direction to look to next.
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#36 69 days ago

I think its looking like the PIA chip..

#37 69 days ago
Quoted from drocelot:

I think its looking like the PIA chip..

Quite possible...did you get there by test or by guess? Another thing is to use your sense of touch, is the PIA significantly warmer than it should be? Sometimes they get discolored when overheated for a time, like a big hazy circle on top.

#38 67 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Quite possible...did you get there by test or by guess? Another thing is to use your sense of touch, is the PIA significantly warmer than it should be? Sometimes they get discolored when overheated for a time, like a big hazy circle on top.

Yes its getting warm, I've noticed now the credit knocker is toast it burnt. I've decided to take the advise and redo the interboard connector.

Can anyone advise me the part numbers for these? Also part numbers in general for Alien Poker ?

#39 66 days ago

One other thing to check is the ohms on the coil. If you replace the board components but the coil is out of spec you will keep frying components.

#40 66 days ago
Quoted from drocelot:

I've decided to take the advise and redo the interboard connector.

Can anyone advise me the part numbers for these?

From great plains electronics site:
Receptacle/female pins - 09-48-2106
Male pins - 2420-10-2260

You'll need to buy 4 of each.

1 month later
#41 26 days ago

Hi Everyone finally my parts arrived and I have now replaced the following on the board. In the Solenoid test I am still getting the Left Kicker *22 locking on only when doing the solenoid tests. I've replaced the interconnector (easier than I thought) the PIA chip IC7 and IC9 (see photo) help!!!

#42 26 days ago

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#43 26 days ago

Does the slingshot work ok if you start a game or does it only lock on in diagnostics?
Did you ever manage to get the displays working?

Do you have a copy of Clay's system 3-7 repair guide? I've been searching it for more info concerning this issue, and found some interesting info. It looks like there may be another PIA chip involved with the special solenoids (typically pop bumpers and slingshots) that only gets involved during diagnostics. I realize this doesn't address a coil locking on in diagnostic mode, but does reference some interesting info regarding special solenoids and potential problems they could have only in diagnostics. Clay's guide goes into detail in section 3e. Here's what he wrote:

--Special Solenoids that work in the Game, but Don't in Diagnostics--

The special solenoids work fine while playing the game, but don't in the diagnostics. Should anyone really care? After all, the only use for the CPU control of the special solenoids is in the diagnostics. But I guess that's up to you to decide whether it should be fixed (after all, if the game plays, who cares?), but I'll try and explain why this could happen.

In diagnostics, the special solenoids are controlled by the CPU via PIA chips. Sounds simple enough, that's how the other 16 CPU controlled coils work. But it's not that simple, because unlike the other 16 CPU controlled coils which are controlled by PIA IC5 on the driver board, the special solenoids use *four* PIAs for their CPU control! Here's a logic chart:

_20181228_004445.JPG

Note one of the special solenoid controlling PIAs is on the CPU board, not the driver board! (Better check that 40 pin interboard connector.) So if the solenoid IC5 PIA was replaced thinking it would take care of the special solenoids in diagnostics, chances are 5 out of 6 that the problem will *not* be fixed! (Usually it's the 7408 chip anyway.) And the special solenoids are not controlled by the PIA's "normal" ports. Instead they use CA2 and CB2, which are two specialized ports on the PIA, at pins 19 and 39. Leon's test chip does test pins 19 and 39 of all the PIAs, but unfortunately the pulses are usually not as clear as testing the "normal" port at pins 2-17 of the PIAs.

------------------

So, according to this chart, it appears IC18 comes into play when the left slingshot (aka kicker) is activated in diagnostic mode. IC18 is on the CPU board and is primarily used for the score displays, but apparently also functions for left slingshot (but *only* in diagnostics).

I gotta admit this is a weird problem, i hope this info is of help!

#44 26 days ago

Thanks that is a great reply, funnily enough the scores randomly turn on. Basically after time, I am going to rework the PIA chip on the CPU board. One of the downsides is that its not socket ted but I ordered 2 chips so if worse comes to worse after the rework I will get it socketed.

No I haven't tested the bumper in normal game mode. This is something I will do . Thanks for this post !

#45 26 days ago

Right on! I'm suspecting the score displays issue might have something to do with IC 18, which could also be the reason for the wonky behavior with the left slingshot in diagnostics. If you get lucky, maybe replacing IC18 will fix both problems. Even if it doesn't, at least it's another step towards getting this sorted out, i suppose. Good luck!

#46 24 days ago
Quoted from frunch:

Right on! I'm suspecting the score displays issue might have something to do with IC 18, which could also be the reason for the wonky behavior with the left slingshot in diagnostics. If you get lucky, maybe replacing IC18 will fix both problems. Even if it doesn't, at least it's another step towards getting this sorted out, i suppose. Good luck!

I replaced the PIA at IC18 was a long job due to having the chip solder on. The Left Kicker no longer gets stuck on with self tests !!!!!

However the scores aren't yet illumnating. They have before now I will need to troubleshoot that. Any tips will be appreciated ! Thanks for your post.

#47 24 days ago
Quoted from frunch:

Right on! I'm suspecting the score displays issue might have something to do with IC 18, which could also be the reason for the wonky behavior with the left slingshot in diagnostics. If you get lucky, maybe replacing IC18 will fix both problems. Even if it doesn't, at least it's another step towards getting this sorted out, i suppose. Good luck!

I replaced the PIA at IC18 was a long job due to having the chip soldered directly to the PCB. I replaced it with a nice IC machined IC socket holder. The Left Kicker no longer gets stuck on with self tests !!!!!

However the scores aren't yet illuminating. They have before now I will need to troubleshoot that. Any tips will be appreciated ! Thanks for your post.

#48 24 days ago

Cleaning the connectors has brought the displays up, however they are not reliable. Once I kick off a diagnostic the displays go blank again. There is an orange dot at each display which indicates that there is HV. Testing the HV brings 128V +/-

Interesting I have to quickly turn the game off and on to boot the machine. Any assistance on test points for this machine, as the its not a system 6 its a system 6a and the documentation isn't readily available.

#49 24 days ago

Im closing this as solved. The mystery was IC18 on the mPU board which controlled the left kicker. Replacing that and the other components where very worthwhile in troubleshooting. Thanks to all for the assistance. Hopefully this post can help others.

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#50 24 days ago

NICE!!!! I really felt like that was a shot in the dark at the time, but it makes sense. I'm glad you had noted it's behavior was happening once you started the diagnostics--that's what led me down the path i followed in Clay's guide. I never would have known about the PIAs having the additional function for the special solenoids if it weren't for this thread. Interesting stuff!

It sounds like the game isn't keeping it's memory, going into 'audit mode'. (When you boot up the game, you have to do the quick on/off)...Usually means the batteries need to be replaced or there's a problem with the ram chip. Best solution is to eliminate the batteries altogether and install an NVRAM in place of the old ram chip. Also, you'll probably need to re-pin the connectors to the master display board and mpu to get more reliable displays. Note the master display board has special edge connectors, not sure what part # off-hand but you'll probably need to replace those too.

I'm really excited that you got to the bottom of this problem, it was an oddball! Congrats!

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