(Topic ID: 267038)

Alien Poker missing speech

By FatPanda

4 years ago


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There are 52 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 4 years ago

I am having missing speech in my recently acquired Alien Poker. Sound effects all worked. The first course of action was to order new capacitors which I did. Next was to reflow the solder at the header pins. No improvement.

Afterwards, I start to go about replacing the sockets on the speech board with SIP sockets. I replaced one at a time, each time reinstalling and testing. The bottom 2 replacements went well and both worked just as before, missing speech and all. I replaced the 3rd top socket, and as I was removing one of the pins, I lifted a trace. Ok, superglue it down, installed the SIP sockets, checked continuity from the socket through the trace on the topside and backside, all good. I reinstall the chip, and now I have no sound at all.

I've attached pics of the chips before the replacements and of the backside after the replacement of the socket un question. I'm not sure if the lifted trace is the issue but it beeped out ok. I obviously screwed up somewhere.
20200421_174808 (resized).jpg20200421_174808 (resized).jpg20200422_192732 (resized).jpg20200422_192732 (resized).jpg

#2 4 years ago

An after pic, and a pic of the repaired trace, 3rd from the bottom on the right column.

It beeps out ok to the end of the trace on top and bottom side.

20200422_200155 (resized).jpg20200422_200155 (resized).jpg20200422_200330 (resized).jpg20200422_200330 (resized).jpg20200422_200341 (resized).jpg20200422_200341 (resized).jpg

#3 4 years ago

The 4th and 5th pin in that same column beep together, but I'm not sure if it did that before the replacement or not.

The fuses beep out good.

Wouldn't the sound work even with the speech board disconnected or not working?

#4 4 years ago

These Williams boards are easy to accidentally make solder bridges due to how close some of the traces run between the pins of the sockets. I had a system 6 mpu that wouldn't boot because of a tiny hairline solder bridge under the socket that I replaced... Lesson learned. I always ping all the sockets for accidental bridges between pins and traces running between. One bridged connection could hang the whole board. A sound board is essentially a mini cpu board of sorts same troubleshooting applies. I think you need to adjust the dip switches for no speech board.

#5 4 years ago

If you haven't already go to firepowerpinball.com and save all the schemactics and board diagrams. They are made for Firepower specifically but are very handy for general reference docs.

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from 20eyes:

These Williams boards are easy to accidentally make solder bridges due to how close some of the traces run between the pins of the sockets. I had a system 6 mpu that wouldn't boot because of a tiny hairline solder bridge under the socket that I replaced... Lesson learned. I always ping all the sockets for accidental bridges between pins and traces running between. One bridged connection could hang the whole board. A sound board is essentially a mini cpu board of sorts same troubleshooting applies. I think you need to adjust the dip switches for no speech board.

I thought there might have been a bridge too, and I went in between the pads with a pick, but I'll go over it again and go in between each pad and try to get under the SIP socket as well.

I'll pull the schematics and take a look at them the next time I have a chance.

#7 4 years ago

good news is its only 67.50 shipped for a new one

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Wouldn't the sound work even with the speech board disconnected or not working?

Not with board disconnected, the sounds are routed through the speech board, mixed with speech and then back to sound board.

Looks like you have a solder splash between pins 4 and 5 of the top socket.

#9 4 years ago

Ok, I'll take a closer look at the pins and get a toothpick or something to see if I can make the disconnection. Hopefully it's just that!

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

Not with board disconnected, the sounds are routed through the speech board, mixed with speech and then back to sound board.
Looks like you have a solder splash between pins 4 and 5 of the top socket.

Just curious, in which picture do you think you see the splash?

#11 4 years ago

Here:

socket1 (resized).jpgsocket1 (resized).jpg
#12 4 years ago

Did you verify the roms yet?

#13 4 years ago

I agree with the solder splash theory. It can even happen on the larger pads, I replaced a 40 pin interconnect recently with the tiniest solder bridge, took awhile to find it but it definitely happens on these boards more that some of the others I work on.

#14 4 years ago

And verify your roms since one is r/w

#15 4 years ago

Thanks guys. Good news is that I took a toothpick and ran it in between the pins and must have removed some solder because pins 4 and 5 dont beep out anymore and the sounds works again.

So now back to my original problem with some missing words, and no speech plays in test but does play in the game, but only some words.

Also, how do I verify ROMs? I dont have anything equipment to burn roms or anything like that.

#16 4 years ago

Did you reflow the headers on the driver and mpu? The connectors are often suspect as well is the ribbon cable.

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from Xenon75:

Did you reflow the headers on the driver and mpu? The connectors are often suspect as well is the ribbon cable.

The previous owner replaced the header pins on the MPU and the 40 Pin interconnect, both Male and female sides.

I'm not sure if he redid the crimps though.

#18 3 years ago

Ok. Got the caps replaced and all the sockets on the speech and sound board replaced with SIP sockets. I'm still having issues with missing speech. Again, there is no speech in test, only sound effects but there is some speech during gameplay.

Would my next step be to replace all of the ROMs?

#19 3 years ago

i can do the roms for you , if you need them. Good pricing.

#20 3 years ago

Roms and the ribbon cable is probably the next step.

#21 3 years ago

Which words are missing? My BK manual lists what words/syllables are produced by which rom chip so you could check that if it might help narrow it down, just a thought.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Which words are missing? My BK manual lists what words/syllables are produced by which rom chip so you could check that if it might help narrow it down, just a thought.

I would have to check. I know it says:
Alien
Poker
Joker
Raise

At minimum. I dont think I've hear other ones. I would replace all the roms anyway. Just have to order them (spacing out pinball purchases right now )

#23 3 years ago

It has been a few years since I sold my Alien Poker, but as I remember the speech test says:

Alien
Poker
You
Deal
Big
Winner
I
Fold
Million
Jackpot
Joker
Raise
Royal
Flush

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

It has been a few years since I sold my Alien Poker, but as I remember the speech test says:
Alien
Poker
You
Deal
Big
Winner
I
Fold
Million
Jackpot
Joker
Raise
Royal
Flush

Yes, mine certainly does not have such a large vocabulary. It is quite limited. Some word will just play the "n" sound, so when you drain you last ball, it'll say "...n...n...n....n"

#25 3 years ago

Do your ROMS have black (corroded legs)? You can gently sand them and sometimes that helps bring them back to life, if they aren't corrupted.

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from Xenon75:

Do your ROMS have black (corroded legs)? You can gently sand them and sometimes that helps bring them back to life, if they aren't corrupted.

They do near the top of the leg, but the part of the leg that inserts into the sockets are fine. They've been reseated a couple of times now. The actual sound rom has 1 leg that looks like it'll break off if I handle it too much, so I'm avoiding messing with that one, since the sounds all work. I wouldn't have a problem taking 600 grit sand paper to the speech roms though, but I honestly don't expect it to work.

#27 3 years ago

Yes, clean the ROM legs, and if that does not help, I think replacing the ROMs is needed, since you already replaced the sockets.

No need to do anything with the actual sound rom, since the sounds work and it tries to do some speech. Problem is with the speech roms or ribbon connector.

#28 3 years ago

Can someone point out which ribbon cable I could use? I think it's a 40 pin cable, and I assume I can just get any 40 pin cable and cut it down to size?

#29 3 years ago

You can, but be careful when opening the speech board connector and removing the old cable, so that you will not damage the connector. The speech board side is hard to find, the sound board side is a standard flat cable connector.

#30 3 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

You can, but be careful when opening the speech board connector and removing the old cable, so that you will not damage the connector. The speech board side is hard to find, the sound board side is a standard flat cable connector.

I did open the speech board side, and it looks like a bunch of pins physically pierced through the cable. I assume, I just cut a length of cable and pierce it onto the connector?

#31 3 years ago

Or you can do it like this...

https://www.flippers.com/catalog/product_info.php/ribbon-cable-speech-board-p-8779

Honestly though you are more than halfway now to a whole brand new board (if you are buying ROMS). A new board comes with the new cable and ROMS.

http://pinballpcb.com/products/replacement-system-6-7-9-speech-board/

#32 3 years ago

Yes. Make sure all the wires are aligned with the pins and you press the top evenly across the connector.

#33 3 years ago

Knowing there is a new board available is a good backup strategy, but nothing beats the feeling you get with successful repair of the old board

#34 3 years ago
Quoted from Xenon75:

Or you can do it like this...
https://www.flippers.com/catalog/product_info.php/ribbon-cable-speech-board-p-8779
Honestly though you are more than halfway now to a whole brand new board (if you are buying ROMS). A new board comes with the new cable and ROMS.
http://pinballpcb.com/products/replacement-system-6-7-9-speech-board/

I've been thinking about this approach. New ROMs are about half the price of a new board with new ROMs and a ribbon cable. Any reason other than stated above NOT to go with a new board instead at this point? As much as I'd like to keep and fix the original board, the new board is a more "sure" thing? I shouldn't have any reason to think that the sound board has any issue correct? As far as I know, all of the sounds are working. When I use the test button, all of the sounds cycle through with very little pause in between.

#35 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I've been thinking about this approach. New ROMs are about half the price of a new board with new ROMs and a ribbon cable. Any reason other than stated above NOT to go with a new board instead at this point? As much as I'd like to keep and fix the original board, the new board is a more "sure" thing? I shouldn't have any reason to think that the sound board has any issue correct? As far as I know, all of the sounds are working. When I use the test button, all of the sounds cycle through with very little pause in between.

I would buy a cheap eprom programmer, eproms, and an eraser. This way in the future you can just burn your own chips vs. sourcing them elsewhere. (What are they charging per chip? $10?)

#36 3 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

I would buy a cheap eprom programmer, eproms, and an eraser. This way in the future you can just burn your own chips vs. sourcing them elsewhere. (What are they charging per chip? $10?)

Do you have any recommendations?

#37 3 years ago

minipro TL866CS (must be the CS version - II apparently doesn't go above 16v, so you might have to ebay this)
If you need to burn 2532's you need to make a small adapter per:
http://www.therealbobroberts.net/mspacrom.html to burn 2532's as 2732's.

The eraser you can get from amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/EPROM-Eraser-Erase-Eraseable-Timer/dp/B014ZYWR

eproms you can get on ebay and amazon

If this is the ONLY thing you'll ever need eproms for, might not be worth it. (You can also get the GX4 for about $100 which should work as well - the CS is getting harder to find at this point. Someone was supposed to test the 866 II version to see if it still allows >16 volts to be programmed, which a lot of the earlier eproms need).

It doesn't do 2716's at all but you can replace 2716's with a doubled up image in a 2732.

You'd be into the whole project for <$200 if you bought a lot of eproms, even. When burners were >$250 (when I got my first one in 1998 it was over $1000) I can see not getting them, but now with the cheapies around no reason not to if you work on any quantity of games that need eproms/might need eproms.

The 866 also tests some logic IC's and memory so there's that as well.

#38 3 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

minipro TL866CS (must be the CS version - II apparently doesn't go above 16v, so you might have to ebay this)
If you need to burn 2532's you need to make a small adapter per:
http://www.therealbobroberts.net/mspacrom.html to burn 2532's as 2732's.
The eraser you can get from amazon:
amazon.com link »
eproms you can get on ebay and amazon
If this is the ONLY thing you'll ever need eproms for, might not be worth it. (You can also get the GX4 for about $100 which should work as well - the CS is getting harder to find at this point. Someone was supposed to test the 866 II version to see if it still allows >16 volts to be programmed, which a lot of the earlier eproms need).
It doesn't do 2716's at all but you can replace 2716's with a doubled up image in a 2732.
You'd be into the whole project for <$200 if you bought a lot of eproms, even. When burners were >$250 (when I got my first one in 1998 it was over $1000) I can see not getting them, but now with the cheapies around no reason not to if you work on any quantity of games that need eproms/might need eproms.
The 866 also tests some logic IC's and memory so there's that as well.

I'll be honest, a lot of this is over my head, not knowing any of the jargon. Not that I couldn't learn, but I'm not familiar with any of it right now. I would need a "Eproms for Idiots" guide.

I've needed new roms for about 3 games now, and I spent <$100 so far on them, so it hasn't been something that I've sunk a ton of money on.

#39 3 years ago

Once you start doing it it becomes second nature. The 2532 is the confusing one; I keep meaning to pick up the gx4 burner so I don't need to use an adapter, I have 3 of the 866's CS's and I just leave the 2532 adapter on one of them. When they announced they were discontinuing the model I bought 2 extras.

I've used the eraser I linked but most of the time I use a BK precision one that can erase 40 or so at a clip. Since I've moved most of the development to weebly boards I just use electrically erasable 27512's, much easier.

#40 3 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Ok. Got the caps replaced and all the sockets on the speech and sound board replaced with SIP sockets. I'm still having issues with missing speech. Again, there is no speech in test, only sound effects but there is some speech during gameplay.
Would my next step be to replace all of the ROMs?

Had exactly same prob with a BK recently. No speech in test, quite a few words in game, but not all of them.
New speech eproms (2732s with adapters to 2532) did not help.
It was a 7442 on the soundboard that was to blame, it was replaced with a 74ls42 and BK rides again!!!
I do not have the schematic here, but this ic is located between the cpu and the test button, left on the board.

#41 3 years ago
Quoted from Gorgar73:

Had exactly same prob with a BK recently. No speech in test, quite a few words in game, but not all of them.
New speech eproms (2732s with adapters to 2532) did not help.
It was a 7442 on the soundboard that was to blame, it was replaced with a 74ls42 and BK rides again!!!
I do not have the schematic here, but this ic is located between the cpu and the test button, left on the board.

If you can post a picture and circle the IC, that would be helpful!

#42 3 years ago
Quoted from Gorgar73:

Had exactly same prob with a BK recently. No speech in test, quite a few words in game, but not all of them.
New speech eproms (2732s with adapters to 2532) did not help.
It was a 7442 on the soundboard that was to blame, it was replaced with a 74ls42 and BK rides again!!!
I do not have the schematic here, but this ic is located between the cpu and the test button, left on the board.

And can you post a link with what you replaced it with? I get confused because it seems that there are several options for a given chip and I'm not very PCB literate

#43 3 years ago

This is another board where i took the 74ls42 from, only an empty socket left now.
I tried another driver board before i burned new speech eproms.
If you have acces to another known working soundboard i would try it, with soundrom 2 installed.
7442 (resized).jpg7442 (resized).jpg

#44 3 years ago
Quoted from Gorgar73:

This is another board where i took the 74ls42 from, only an empty socket left now.
I tried another driver board before i burned new speech eproms.
If you have acces to another known working soundboard i would try it, with soundrom 5 installed.[quoted image]

I dont have access to another working board. This is my only Williams game at the moment, so I would have to order any new parts to try it out.

#45 3 years ago
Quoted from Gorgar73:

This is another board where i took the 74ls42 from, only an empty socket left now.
I tried another driver board before i burned new speech eproms.
If you have acces to another known working soundboard i would try it, with soundrom 2 installed.
[quoted image]

Do you know if this will work?
ebay.com link: 2pk 7442 Decimal Decoders 16 Pin Dip Package ICs

#46 3 years ago

Yes, they will. I can see GPE use to have them, but is out of stock at the moment.
Be sure to place it with the notch down, and best of luck!

#47 3 years ago
Quoted from Gorgar73:

Yes, they will. I can see GPE use to have them, but is out of stock at the moment.
Be sure to place it with the notch down, and best of luck!

ok. i'll order them and give it a shot.

#48 3 years ago

Out of them at GPE but more are on order.
I wouldn't buy them from the link in post #45. Anybody that packs/sells IC's in white foam like that has no business selling semiconductors.

#49 3 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Out of them at GPE but more are on order.
I wouldn't buy them from the link in post #45. Anybody that packs/sells IC's in white foam like that has no business selling semiconductors.

I already paid for the item. If anything I'm out $6.00 and I'll give yours a shot.

The seller has over 26K feedback and 100% positive, so there's that at least!

#50 3 years ago

Installed the new 7442 IC and still having the same problem. Anything else before I try the new Souns ROMs?

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