(Topic ID: 106728)

ALIEN PINBALL - Game Over, Man, Game Over

By HeighwayPinball

4 years ago

Topic Stats

  • 24,841 posts
  • 990 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 hour ago by gstellenberg
  • Topic is favorited by 268 Pinsiders


Linked Games

  • Alien Heighway Pinball, 2017

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Topic index (key posts)

52 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #9151 Insight from Alien's programmer on tournament mode Posted by Ferret (2 years ago)

Post #9234 Update on distribution Posted by HeighwayPinball (2 years ago)

Post #9660 Here we show you a short clip from the 'Ambush Multiball' mode Posted by HeighwayPinball (2 years ago)

Post #10128 Photo of Alien at UK Trade Show Posted by unigroove (2 years ago)

Post #10230 game play video from EAG UK tradeshow Posted by Join_The_Cirqus (2 years ago)

Post #10231 game play video from EAG UK tradeshow Posted by Join_The_Cirqus (2 years ago)

Post #10914 Alien ships Posted by ZenTron (2 years ago)

Post #10916 Alien ships Posted by HeighwayPinball (2 years ago)

Post #11230 Key posted, but no summary given Posted by ezeltmann (2 years ago)

Post #11372 Nordman outline for Alien Posted by solarvalue (2 years ago)

Post #11389 CAD comparison of final Aliens vs Nordman drawing Posted by EalaDubhSidhe (2 years ago)

Post #11417 Gameplay from Heighway as of 2/28/17 Posted by HeighwayPinball (2 years ago)

Post #13008 Andrew reveals the LE artwork and ramp installation in an alien day video Posted by HeighwayPinball (2 years ago)

Post #13013 Andrew confirms LE art is finally approved by fox Posted by HeighwayPinball (2 years ago)

Post #13022 Andrew explains the artist difference for the LE backglass Posted by HeighwayPinball (2 years ago)

Post #14488 Andrew returns, hints at big announcement coming in a few days. Posted by HeighwayPinball (2 years ago)

Post #15501 Copy of update posted to Facebook by the new HP Posted by Dust2000 (2 years ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#13474 2 years ago
Quoted from ronaldvg:

Heighway needs to make machines to get the money that is tied up with Cointaker. For that they need parts. Because of the bad reputation Pinball companies have gotten because of the companies that went under or were bad at fulfilling the bills, parts must be paid for in advance. So that costs money. Refunds also cost money. What would you choose to pay if you were serious in building up a company that can produce and deliver pinball machines ? Ask yourself that.
My opinion: if people here are yelling that the financial situation at Heighway is bad, it probably will be a self fulfilling prophecy. More buyers will back out and the flow of money will stop. More people will be yelling their refund does not get paid back and even more people will want to back out.
As nice it would be to think that these startup companies will not touch our preorder money, it is just BS. Again: ask yourself what you would do. They need the money to keep the lights burning. Attracting money in other ways just is way to expensive or maybe even impossible. Furthermore I like to think think that Heighway is actually the most eager to get production running and deliver these things. Only way to keep in business as the monthly costs have to be paid every month.
I am paid in full for an LE since 2015 and there is no doubt in my mind that Andrew wants to deliver my machine. Way to much drama here and I suggest if you do not have the stomach for waiting a long time or do not have this money as disposable income, please do not preorder. By asking for a refund you are killing the startup as they count on that money to make the things WE want. You cannot say: oh I am a big supporter of XXXX and then ask for a refund. You are then the opposite of a supporter.
To be clear: this is just my opinion and thoughts, I am just one of you all, a customer that is eagerly awaiting his toy.

Self fulfilling prophecy is right. Especially with some acting like they know orders with suppliers, company financials, etc. it's pretty clear for financial stability they are using preorder money. If things are as dire as some think then the thing to do is let it ride, because sabotaging yourself and having a mass influx of people demanding refunds will do nothing to get payments back. You're in now, for better or for worse.

3 weeks later
#14222 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

I think it's a bit late in the day for honesty to make a tangible difference to the outcome, sadly. See below.

If PayPal and the payment processor WorldPay accounts aren't permanently shuttered now, they're almost certainly already suspended, at this point. The above is not an isolated case and has happened repeatedly. At least in this case resolution was fairly 'swift'. In some cases Andrew has fought credit card chargebacks and managed to string them out for months, not days or weeks. PP are definitely flawed and very open to criticism on many fronts, but in situations like this they are often better.
For anyone thinking this is just some contravention of terms of service, or something else that can be explained away, it is not. It can be seen to constitute fraud.
Additionally, operationally, if a company cannot meet its obligations and is insolvent, then it must voluntarily declare bankruptcy (if a third party doesn't force it) so that it may either enter administration or be liquidated. Amongst other reasons, this is to prevent pyramids forming or becoming worse.
If it can be shown that the company was traded past the point where directors knew that the company was insolvent, or that insolvency was inevitable, it is classified as insolvent / negligent trading (officially Wrongful Trading in the UK). Directors, and Andrew is the only one despite having other shareholders, can face very large fines and other penalties. In this case, the accounts from the year to the end of March '16 show the company to be deeply insolvent and virtually worthless.
The warning signs have been there for a long, long time. It is difficult to argue that these are merely just 'warning signs' now.

Whatever the circumstances, your assumption that their PayPal account is suspended is way out of bounds. Do you have any proof of their suspended account? I get over 10 mil in PP payments a year, and having a truly suspended account is a rare thing. Hell, if you receive over a mil in payments, it's a whole different ballgame in how your funds are held, accessed, and disputed. It's clear you don't have a clue, at least on the PP side.

I do think it's funny though, you say the sky is falling at heighway, but for DP you are a constant defender. Not sure the connection, but definitely a little backwards taking everything at face value.

#14227 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

It's folly to assume it hasn't been. Assuming you haven't obstructed valid refund requests and Paypal haven't ruled against you, why would you have issues? Also, you do realise that according to their accounts, it would be incredible if their PP account is in remotely the same ballpark as the one you claim to have. It'd be in the same danger of closure, suspension or funds being witheld as ALL small PP accounts are.
You make an awful lot of assumptions here. If HW had millions going through their PP account, do you think cash flow would be an issue?
You, as others, imagine that my saying the situation is not black and white with DP (in any sense) amounts to white knighting for them. I would be surprised if little positive comes from the apparent takeover negotiations with ARA any time soon.

im not making any assumptions, I'm talking about what I know for a fact. I know PayPal, and their rules. I simply said for larger accounts, there is a whole different process then joe blow running $5k through his account yearly. I wouldn't dare defend or pontificate on the inner workings of a company I know nothing about, you however, don't seem to have an issue.

Lastly, you have every right to "obstruct" a refund request, or drag it out as long as you can. Is it good business? No, but they clearly even stated it when they sent the email saying refunds would take up to 60 days as production has started. Either way, they have the right to drag it out as long as possible under PayPal, or whoever the payment processors rules are.

As a business owner, I sympathize with heighway, as it's all about the turns and trying to survive when starting a new project. I know the frustration of being maybe 6 months out from stability, but having to weather the storm to make it to shore. It's not easy and I respect any company trying to do it. Luckily in my industry we don't have a group of "insiders and experts" talking on a forum daily about the inner workings of a company. Either way, I hope they can make it through this tumultuous period and get their game to the mass market.

#14232 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Surely you are confusing having the "ability" with having the "right". As a vender you are not supposed to frivolously resist credit card chargebacks and you certainly can't lie during the review obstruct anything. (I'm assuming PayPal is the same way).
People have the ability to lie under oath in a deposition, this doesn't mean they have the right to do it.

I have the right to take 21 days to respond if PayPal says I have 21 days. No more, no less. No one is talking about lying, I'm simply stating you can take as much time as each credit card processor allows you. Like I said, bad business, sure, but definitely within the rules.

#14233 2 years ago
Quoted from chrisnack:

Someone pinged me about this so I thought I'd respond. His response was not way out of bounds.
Yes, my dispute locked their account. Andrew emailed me about it. I assume that's why they refunded half and not the full amount, that might have been what they needed to get it unlocked. Buts that's an assumption on my part. But I have no other logical reason as to why they refunded half but not the full amount.

That's not how it works, you don't refund half and get an account unlocked. Simply stated for tenth time, no one knows the status of heighways accounts except for heighway. Make all the assumptions you want, but myself or others truly don't know the facts or status of their personal accounts. That being said, i have zero interest in defending them, just dont like people saying things are black and white when very few may actually know. I mean, you said they had supplier issues, which seemed incredibly out of bounds unless you can post absolute proof of it. Either way, I don't have the desire or time to indulge this further, but a lot of assumptions made with nothing but a lot of conjecture.

#14466 2 years ago
Quoted from Manimal:

To add some fairness to all of this...how many of you reading are getting PM's from RubberDucks urging you to withdraw your funds? He/She may fully have our best interests at heart, but I have to question getting multiple e-mails really trying to get me to pull my money, even after I said I fully accepted the risk. This may very well be the beginning of the end, or maybe Heighway will surprise us all, but whatever decision you make, do it with an open mind and do what YOU want to do, not what someone else is urging you to do.

It does seem strange to me whatever the circumstances with heighway, that ducks is willing to throw so much caution to the wind with DP, but for heighway he is beating the drums of war. He preaches patience and calm with DP, basically saying they aren't broke and things will work out, but for heighway he is sending PM's and telling people the sky is falling. I'm not sure what the truth is with either company, but his obvious bias is clear and somewhat concerning.

#14471 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

You seem to be putting a lot of words in my mouth, and of course caution is more warranted with DP as there is far less information.
I do however remember that you were claiming my statements were fantastical and out of bounds yesterday, and I knew nothing of what I was talking about. You continued to make error ridden statements, and shortly thereafter you were proved wholly wrong when another poster said that Andrew had e-mailed him saying that the HW Paypal account indeed had been suspended.
Yet here you are trying to do exactly the same thing a day later.
I certainly see some clear and concerning bias.

You mistake my comments as genuine concern, as I don't have a vested interest in either company. I do however hope both are successful and figure out their issues. As an unbiased observer, the contrast in your comments deserve some questioning. Either way, I'm sure your motives for defending one and trying to expose another are completely on the up and up. I made some generalized comments which you are trying to spin, but I don't have the time nor concern to engage further. It's clear you have a lot of emotions and time built into investigating these companies and I hope things work out for you.

#14474 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Your comments speak for themselves, hence why I quoted them ... also, you're spinning false narratives from my posts and don't quote them, presumably for a reason.

because I don't care enough. Calm down

#14475 2 years ago

"Do you have any proof of a suspended account". I prefer facts, not a bunch of internet psychics. I never even said they don't have a suspended account, just said it was rare. I'm gonna step out of this, I have no interest either way, but it's clear you and some others are emotional about this whole thing , understandably. Once again, I hope things work out for you guys since you seemingly have so much of your lives wrapped up in someone else's pinball company.

2 months later
#16030 1 year ago

Does VAT come into play for any of the U.K. Customers? I know when I do business in the EU it's always a constant concern as 20% can totally turn a deal upside down. If the old prices were £4800 incl. 20%. VAT, then no wonder they ran out of money.

3 weeks later
#16563 1 year ago

I understand hesitation with heighway, but in my experience any company that makes the amount of refunds they did usually is trying to right the ship. I guess I am more understanding since they seem like they are making a sincere effort. To say they're
Lying based on a game of telephone seems slightly unfair. I have seen sea shipments delayed because of weather in a different part of the world, which you would think have zero effect on the route. We send something out two dozens times a year by ship, and about a third of the time there is an issue. I want the game just like others, but I do feel like the rush to accuse them of lying maybe a little premature, even with their turbulent history.

#16697 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinballs:

I was going to buy one, but they increased the price by 40% and forced buyers to buy via a well-known expensive distributor i.e. I can't go to UK factory anymore. I was quite excited as a UK person to have a UK pinball manufacturer, and had a fantasy to turn up in a van to pick up my Alien, but somehow these guys have managed to kill all that. Incredible really. So now they are more expensive than Stern, despite Stern being imported from US and UK import taxes being 20%. That is a level of greed that deserves a Sheen movie.
It will be interesting to see what sales they achieve at the new price point, but to be blunt I think they've killed the company. They've lost my custom, and I'm sure most others. Hey ho. Plenty more fish in the sea, I guess.

40%? I know it was raised, but that seems a high estimate. I also asked this before, but the U.K. Dist. Had it listed with tax included, and was wondering does 20% of every sale go to VAT? Is there any other taxes on top of that? Not defending heighway, but if they were paying taxes out of the prior amount, no wonder they were running out of money. I guess my view is I would rather them raise the price to a sustainable point instead of just completing alien and closing shop. There is no denying the game is loaded, and for a small operation the price Should be higher than sterns, especially when stern has got their costs down further and further. I know it sucks to be offered a price and then they raise it, but in the long term if it means the company survives, then I'm all for it. I think heighway has made a lot of mistakes, but if they honored the preorder prices, and only raised it for new sales, my opinion is that is completely justified.

#16760 1 year ago
Quoted from TimberOne:

They should have left pricing where it was. If a business is losing money, which is no doubt they are, they cant just raise prices to cover their losses. The problem is poor management and lack of budgeting. They need to correct that first, regain their reputation, get some forward momentum, fix their stalled game builds, then start thinking of a price increase maybe years down the road once they prove themselves as a legitimate contender. Volume in sales will create a profit as will proof of quality.

They absolutely can and should raise prices if they are losing money. They should lose money on every sale to do what, earn good will? Sorry man, that doesn't very much sense. Just like they have the right to charge whatever they want, you have the right to not buy their product. I would rather a company raise prices then close up shop, as long as they kept the same price for the early orders that are prepaid.

6 months later
#20593 1 year ago

You may be able to use an rc car gear? They have a ton of different choices and it looks kind of like a mod1 pitch. If you can get the teeth count and exact measurements there is a lot of metal options available online. Good luck man

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