(Topic ID: 276638)

Air Aces Won't Start a Game


By Knxwledge

15 days ago



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  • 25 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 hour ago by Knxwledge
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#1 15 days ago

Trying to work through my Air Aces, but am stuck at the first major hurdle. The game has credits but won't start. I cleaned and gapped all switches. Fuses and fuse holders are good, lights turn on, lock coil turns on, so it's not a power issue I don't think. Hit the start button and nothing happens. I tried jumpering the start button to the credit coil and nothing changed. Tried jumpering a couple other wires to the credit coil in the red line I made on the schematics in Pic 1 below but nothing happened. When I manually hit the reset relay, it attempts to reset everything but Player 1 and 2 score reels don't zero out, even though the coil that I think should deal with that (#1 Score Reset) is firing. Player 3 and 4 score reels do though. The credit unit does not decrement. The switch on the score motor which deals with the drop targets resetting (9a shown in pic 2) gets so hot it starts smoking after the score motor makes about 5 rotations. Any help appreciated.

schema 1 (resized).PNGschema 2 (resized).PNG
#2 14 days ago

Hi knxwledge
not yet "troubleshooting" - in a functioning Air Aces we press the Credit-Button - the Credit-Relay pulls in and makes the Coin-Relay to actuate (I'd prefer the name Start-Relay instead of Coin-Relay). Bally pins are dangerous - they operate 110VAC and most of the coils 48VAC - current can kill You - ALWAYS wear rubber gloves or use an wooden stick when You want to activate an relay manually (or work in the pin). Please try: Activate the Coin-Relay to start a new game.
I am interested in: You have "started" a game - You do not play through the balls, You toggle-off the main power switch - NOW look at the Game-Over-Relay and toggle-on the main power switch - big question: Doing so - does the Game-Over-Relay actuate (trips) ?
I live in Switzerland - about 8 hours ahead of You - soon I will go to sleep. Greetings Rolf

#3 13 days ago

Hi Rolf,
Thank you for telling me about the dangerous voltage, I didn't realize
Manually tripping the Coin relay does attempt to start a game, but it never gets past the reset phase because the first and second player score reels don't zero out properly. It never gets to the point where the ball is kicked into the shooter lane so I can't test if the Game-Over relay trips. For the sake of testing I could try setting them to zero manually, unless you think it would be better to address the score reel issue first.

Thanks,
Dylan

#4 13 days ago

A broken line on one of te score reels.
That's the cause for the reels not to reset, they don't get the current for resetting, mostly a broken line (yellow?), it is like the lights on a Christmas tree.
If on fails, they all fail.
The credit button?
Normally closed contact on the reset relay, fasten the screws on the relay, and after that try to adjust them, it is a difficult one, the lower set of contacts.

#5 13 days ago

Hi Dylan
see my JPG - encircled green, B --- look up in the schematics at E33 to E43 and You will see that for stepping the Score-Drums of Player-1 and Player-2 BOTH ( #1 and #2) Reset-Relays are involved. Also You will see that for stepping the Score-Drums of Player-3 and Player-4 BOTH ( #1 and #2) Reset-Relays are involved. In post-1 You write "... but Player-1 and Player-2 Score-Reels do not zero-out ..." - what exactly does happen ? Please toggle-off the pin, unplug the 110VAC plug (Safety Reasons) and step all the Score-Drums of Player-1 and Player-2 to "position one" - then plug-in, toggle-on, "start" a game - wait until no Score-Drum of Player-1 and -2 is stepped anymore - WHAT do the Score-Drums show ? (theoretical example 38610, 43720)

I am not familiar with Bally pins - look here (WILLIAMS) https://www.ipdb.org/files/415/Williams_1968_Cabaret_Instruction_Manual_no_schematics.pdf on page-15 (ori-13) on the bottom: Three switches do actuate --- in my JPG "green A, green B, green C" I show on Air Aces, tens-Score-Drum of Player-1 the three switches and also I show the colors of the wires soldered-on. Please take-out the tens-Score-Drum of Player-1 - try to locate these three switches - see how they operate (open / close) when You manually step the drum ?

See in the JPG "blue stuff and brown stuff" --- when the Score-Motor is running (trying to reset, to step the Score-Drums forward to position-zero) --- within a full revolution of the motor: #1-Score-Reset-Relay does rhythmically activate - deactivate - activate - deactivate etc. - 10 times in a full revolution of the motor --- and the #2-Score-Reset-Relay does this 12 times in a full revolution --- question: In Your pin do the #1- and #2-Reset-Relay rhythmically activate - deactivate - activate - deactivate etc. when Your pin does try to start / reset ?

Your answer in post-3 "... cannot test if the game-over-relay trips ..." is not an answer to what I asked You to do (my post-2) - Please WATCH the Game-Over-Relay while You toggle-on the main power switch - does the Game-Over-Relay actuate (while You toggle-on the main power switch) ? Greetings Rolf

0Air-Aces-Work-03 (resized).jpg
#6 10 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Dylan
see my JPG - encircled green, B --- look up in the schematics at E33 to E43 and You will see that for stepping the Score-Drums of Player-1 and Player-2 BOTH ( #1 and #2) Reset-Relays are involved. Also You will see that for stepping the Score-Drums of Player-3 and Player-4 BOTH ( #1 and #2) Reset-Relays are involved. In post-1 You write "... but Player-1 and Player-2 Score-Reels do not zero-out ..." - what exactly does happen ? Please toggle-off the pin, unplug the 110VAC plug (Safety Reasons) and step all the Score-Drums of Player-1 and Player-2 to "position one" - then plug-in, toggle-on, "start" a game - wait until no Score-Drum of Player-1 and -2 is stepped anymore - WHAT do the Score-Drums show ? (theoretical example 38610, 43720)

Player 1: 11100
Player 2: 11110
I also noticed Player 3 wasn't resetting properly either
Player 3: 00010
Player 4: 00000
Something I realized is that I never took apart the score reels and cleaned/lubed the bakelight discs for them. Could this be causing my issue?

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I am not familiar with Bally pins - look here (WILLIAMS) https://www.ipdb.org/files/415/Williams_1968_Cabaret_Instruction_Manual_no_schematics.pdf on page-15 (ori-13) on the bottom: Three switches do actuate --- in my JPG "green A, green B, green C" I show on Air Aces, tens-Score-Drum of Player-1 the three switches and also I show the colors of the wires soldered-on. Please take-out the tens-Score-Drum of Player-1 - try to locate these three switches - see how they operate (open / close) when You manually step the drum ?

Player 1 tens drum does this: at zero, the 3 switches in the stack are all open, at one through eight, the top 2 switches are closed while the bottom one remains open, and at nine the 3 switches in the stack are all closed.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

See in the JPG "blue stuff and brown stuff" --- when the Score-Motor is running (trying to reset, to step the Score-Drums forward to position-zero) --- within a full revolution of the motor: #1-Score-Reset-Relay does rhythmically activate - deactivate - activate - deactivate etc. - 10 times in a full revolution of the motor --- and the #2-Score-Reset-Relay does this 12 times in a full revolution --- question: In Your pin do the #1- and #2-Reset-Relay rhythmically activate - deactivate - activate - deactivate etc. when Your pin does try to start / reset ?

Yes #1 and #2 Reset Relays are rhythmically activating

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Your answer in post-3 "... cannot test if the game-over-relay trips ..." is not an answer to what I asked You to do (my post-2) - Please WATCH the Game-Over-Relay while You toggle-on the main power switch - does the Game-Over-Relay actuate (while You toggle-on the main power switch) ? Greetings Rolf [quoted image]

Attached is a video of what my Game Over Relay does from when the game is on, to pushing the coin relay in to start the reset sequence, to turning the game off then back on again.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1779fg9hr9cTkFlPzokH1B4W4NBHHOHxu/view?usp=sharing

#7 10 days ago

Clean score motor cam 3 switch B . This switch pulses reset coils on units, allowing the machine to complete it’s reset.

#8 9 days ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Clean score motor cam 3 switch B . This switch pulses reset coils on units, allowing the machine to complete it’s reset.

Did that already, but just to make sure I went back and cleaned it again. Nothing changed

#9 8 days ago

Hi Dylan
I would not lube stuff in the pin. I do not take apart Units until several tests I made tell me "must take apart and clean".
Fine - in post-6 You write "#1 and #2 Reset-Relays" do rhythmically activate and deactivate and so on while the motor is running.
I assume in the beginning of Your post-6 are the end-positions of the Score-Drums --- the drums of Player-4 are fully functioning - when checking switches on other drums refer to the switches / drums on Player-4.

See the JPG - I tried to visualize Your results - in the right bottom corner of the JPG: We stand behind the pin and look into the Backbox - I do not see a pattern in the results. Well on the Switches of #1-Reset-Relay the wire-30-Yellow does hop from one switch (a switchblade of the switch) to next switch to next switch to next switch, the same on #2-Reset-Relay-Switches - please inspect these switches - has wire-30-Yellow somewhere broken, broken-off the solder-lug so the rest of the switches not have connection to wire-30-Yellow ?

I had a look at Your video --- the Game-Over-Relay-TRIP-Coil is the one NOT having attached the Nylon-Ladder (the bottom coil in the video). I have the impression that the TRIP-Coil faulty gets always current - faulty activates all the time. In the JPG on the right I show the snippet of schematics for the Game-Over -TRIP-Coil - please inspect the Switch on the (steady pulling) Lock-Relay - truely open ? Please try: The pin is toggled-off - manually reset the Ball-Count-Unit - then toggle-on, start a game - what happens ?
(See in the JPG) A wire-Yellow-Black runs from one lug on the TRIP-Coil to "Switch mounted on the Game-Over-Relay" - have the pin toggled-off and manually latch and trip and latch and trip the relay - does this switch open when You trip - does the switch close when You latch ? Greetings Rolf

0Air-Aces-Work-04 (resized).jpg
#10 2 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Dylan
I would not lube stuff in the pin. I do not take apart Units until several tests I made tell me "must take apart and clean".
Fine - in post-6 You write "#1 and #2 Reset-Relays" do rhythmically activate and deactivate and so on while the motor is running.
I assume in the beginning of Your post-6 are the end-positions of the Score-Drums --- the drums of Player-4 are fully functioning - when checking switches on other drums refer to the switches / drums on Player-4.
See the JPG - I tried to visualize Your results - in the right bottom corner of the JPG: We stand behind the pin and look into the Backbox - I do not see a pattern in the results. Well on the Switches of #1-Reset-Relay the wire-30-Yellow does hop from one switch (a switchblade of the switch) to next switch to next switch to next switch, the same on #2-Reset-Relay-Switches - please inspect these switches - has wire-30-Yellow somewhere broken, broken-off the solder-lug so the rest of the switches not have connection to wire-30-Yellow ?

When manually setting the score reels to 0, the game does properly start and kick the ball out. Still having an issue with the start button doing nothing...
I played around with the score reels a bit today and made some progress. When setting every score reel to 1 and tripping the coin relay manually, my results are:
Player 1- 11100
Player 2- 11100
Player 3- 00000
Player 4- 00000

It's strange how both Player 1 and 2 are having identical problems. I don't see the wire-30-Yellow broken anywhere. I tried jumpering the Drum Zero wire of each score reel directly to the 30-Yellow wire (for example, for Player 1 100-900, the W-B wire), and it didn't make them reset.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I had a look at Your video --- the Game-Over-Relay-TRIP-Coil is the one NOT having attached the Nylon-Ladder (the bottom coil in the video). I have the impression that the TRIP-Coil faulty gets always current - faulty activates all the time. In the JPG on the right I show the snippet of schematics for the Game-Over -TRIP-Coil - please inspect the Switch on the (steady pulling) Lock-Relay - truely open ? Please try: The pin is toggled-off - manually reset the Ball-Count-Unit - then toggle-on, start a game - what happens ?
(See in the JPG) A wire-Yellow-Black runs from one lug on the TRIP-Coil to "Switch mounted on the Game-Over-Relay" - have the pin toggled-off and manually latch and trip and latch and trip the relay - does this switch open when You trip - does the switch close when You latch ? Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Here's the updated video of the Game-Over-Relay and how it behaves when the machine actually starts a game. Let me know if it looks problematic, I'm having trouble following this part of your instructions
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BlyfQhhsETIO2kBFQQiXWlh4m67mBPEb/view?usp=sharing

#11 2 days ago

Welp I goofed up, I was messing with the game and now the score motor doesn't reset... add another problem to the list

Edit: im gonna have to get this fixed first. Now when manually tripping the coin relay, the reset relay sticks on and the game doesnt reset. The score motor, when manually moved out of home position, doesnt automatically reset anymore

Edit 2: No longer an issue, I fixed this by moving the jones plug for the 3rd coin chute? Weird....

#12 2 days ago

The power line on 1st reset relay is broken or loose.
It is one line for more contacts...mostly a line with a metal piece through the contacts...
So the whole section after the 10s don't get power to reset...

#13 2 days ago
Quoted from wizardblom:

The power line on 1st reset relay is broken or loose.
It is one line for more contacts...mostly a line with a metal piece through the contacts...
So the whole section after the 10s don't get power to reset...

I checked it and visually it looks good. I also did try continuity check between both ends and I did get a beep.

#14 2 days ago

Something else I discovered is that the game starts (or tries to start) when I hit either of the micro switches in the coin chute, but not the start button. Strange....

#15 2 days ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

game starts (or tries to start) when I hit either of the micro switches in the coin chute, but not the start button

If the Credit button doesn't activate the Credit relay, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

pasted_image (resized).png
#16 1 day ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If the Credit button doesn't activate the Credit relay, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
[quoted image]

I was able to get the game to start by jumpering these two together (I believe it was that white wire. I jumpered together the white wire that connects to the middle switch on the 2nd Coin Chute Relay, and the BLU-O wire on the Credit Button). There is no 3rd Coin Chute Relay in my game. I believe this indicates a problem with the 1D position on the score motor? I've cleaned and gapped the score motor already. I'm not sure if the "2nd Coin Chute" refers to the relay or the actual microswitch?
24cef3e91ae604c88022e05768efc1125ef5af67.png.png

#17 1 day ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

not sure if the "2nd Coin Chute" refers to the relay or the actual microswitch

If it doesn't say "RE." at the end, it's not the relay, so "2nd Coin Chute" refers to the actual microswitch

Quoted from Knxwledge:

I jumpered together the white wire that connects to the middle switch on the 2nd Coin Chute Relay, and the BLU-O wire on the Credit Button

If as you say, you "jumpered together the white wire that connects to the middle switch on the 2nd Coin Chute Relay," Then I have no idea what you connected.

#18 1 day ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If it doesn't say "RE." at the end, it's not the relay, so "2nd Coin Chute" refers to the actual microswitch

If as you say, you "jumpered together the white wire that connects to the middle switch on the 2nd Coin Chute Relay," Then I have no idea what you connected.

Then disregard, it was irrelevant. I tried what I highlighted in blue, then green. When I jumpered the start button to the credit relay and *pushed the button*, nothing happened. When I jumpered the R-W wire to the credit relay, it instantly started a game as soon as I turned the machine on. I'm guessing this is because the 2nd coin chute switch is normally closed?

*edited for clarity*

24cef3e91ae604c88022e05768efc1125ef5af67.png (1).png

#19 1 day ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

I'm guessing this is because the 2nd coin chute switch is normally closed?

The 2nd Coin Chute switch is a make/break type, meaning one side is closed when the other side is open.

#20 1 day ago
Quoted from HowardR:

The 2nd Coin Chute switch is a make/break type, meaning one side is closed when the other side is open.

Right, but the side I jumpered it to is closed. Is this why it caused the credit relay to start instantly?

#21 1 day ago

Heres what 1D (top switch) looks like in the home position (trough) of the score motor

20200916_212812.jpg
#22 1 day ago

Going back to the score reel issue: I tried jumpering the 10s reel to each of the other reels in the row to make sure all the coils work, and I didn't have a problem. Then I tried starting the reels at 2 instead of 1 (Player 1: 22220 and Player 2: 22220). The results were: (Player 1: 02200 and Player 2: 02200). When testing this I went to the back of the game to watch the coils to see if they were struggling at all, and the hundreds and thousands reels on both banks weren't moving at all. I'm not exactly sure what these results mean in terms of finding a solution though...

Edit: tried (Player 1: 33330 and Player 2: 33330), and the results were (Player 1: 03300 and Player 2: 00000). Im now extremely confused because there seems to be no consistency

Edit 2: it appears that player 2 thousands and tens is fixed, and I'm not sure how I did it:
Start ----> results
Player 1: 11110----------->01100
Player 2: 11110 ---------->00000
Player 1: 22220----------->02200
Player 2: 22220 ---------->00000

To try to fix Player 1 hundreds and thousands I'm going to take them apart and clean them. Cant think of anything else to do at this point

#23 1 day ago

Get the schematic and look at every score motor switch. Print, highlight each one, and then check to make sure all NO (normally open) and NC (normally closed) are correct.

All Ballys of this vintage start the same. Read the start sequence and follow the steps.

#24 22 hours ago

Solved the score reel issue, only for another one to pop up. Now every single reel resets except for Player 4 tens reel. I fixed the Player 1 hundreds and thousands reel by taking them apart and cleaning them (they were filthy), and cleaning the contacts again. As for the Player 4 tens reel, it started sticking. The coil tries to fire but it almost doesn't seem like it has enough power. Attached is a video of how it behaves when I try starting a game: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CQImU-hHFF5_-wWus3hzH8nerDY_Pg6I/view?usp=sharing
Manually pulling in the reel works fine, and when I jumper the hundreds coil to it, it pulls in just fine, but when trying to reset on its own it gets stuck.

Quoted from Skidave:

Get the schematic and look at every score motor switch. Print, highlight each one, and then check to make sure all NO (normally open) and NC (normally closed) are correct.
All Ballys of this vintage start the same. Read the start sequence and follow the steps.

I will try this, thanks.

#25 1 hour ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Dylan
I had a look at Your video --- the Game-Over-Relay-TRIP-Coil is the one NOT having attached the Nylon-Ladder (the bottom coil in the video). I have the impression that the TRIP-Coil faulty gets always current - faulty activates all the time. In the JPG on the right I show the snippet of schematics for the Game-Over -TRIP-Coil - please inspect the Switch on the (steady pulling) Lock-Relay - truely open ? Please try: The pin is toggled-off - manually reset the Ball-Count-Unit - then toggle-on, start a game - what happens ?
(See in the JPG) A wire-Yellow-Black runs from one lug on the TRIP-Coil to "Switch mounted on the Game-Over-Relay" - have the pin toggled-off and manually latch and trip and latch and trip the relay - does this switch open when You trip - does the switch close when You latch ? Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

I went back and looked at the schematics, my game and your comment, and I'm better understanding this. The NC switch on the lock relay opens when the lock relay engages. As for this part:

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Please try: The pin is toggled-off - manually reset the Ball-Count-Unit - then toggle-on, start a game - what happens ?

When toggling the game off, resetting the Ball-Count-Unit by hand does nothing because it's already in the home position. From there, what I showed in the second video is what happens to the Game-Over-Relay coils.

As for the switch with the Yellow-Black wire (the very top one), attached is 2 photos of its two different positions based off of the position of the latch. Looks correct to me

20200918_161453.jpg20200918_161508.jpg

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