(Topic ID: 170460)

After 30 years

By Luppin

7 years ago


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  • Latest reply 7 years ago by wayout440
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    #1 7 years ago

    Wood is a living material. I've heard that all playfields are destined to become trash over time because of this. Is it true? I am asking especially regarding clearcoated playfields. Some of them are now 25+ years old, and still in very good conditions. But after another 30 or 50 years, what will happen to these playfields (stored in a climate controlled environment)?

    -2
    #2 7 years ago

    Well I won't be around to see......everything has a life and these machines were made to last 5~8 years originally so I'm not sure what your point is?

    #3 7 years ago

    Wood is not a living material, it dies after it is cut. (Cells and whatnot, yadda yadda)

    Think of it as a branch, if you cut it off of a tree, all the leaves turn brown. It is dead. Not sure who told you wood was living after it was cut...

    Quoted from Luppin:

    Some of them are now 25+ years old, and still in very good conditions. But after another 30 or 50 years, what will happen to these playfields (stored in a climate controlled environment)?

    A ton of them are now over *60* (a lot more than 25!) years old and still doing fine (some early games even from the 30's and earlier are still fine), and a bunch of that time probably wasn't spent in climate control either.

    If your gameroom conditions are good you have absolutely nothing to worry about in terms of that. Otherwise, remember to keep your playfields waxed for protection.

    #4 7 years ago

    As long as they arent worn out from being played too much, I would think they will be around for a very long time. Do you think that your coffee table or bedroom suit will be a pile of saw dust in 50 years?

    #5 7 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    Well I won't be around to see......everything has a life and these machines were made to last 5~8 years originally so I'm not sure what your point is?

    5-8 years when machines were built for being operated in public places, and then changed with newer models.

    But today most of pinball machines are owned and traded between private collectors. I think people spend 8k for a NIB machine, or 5/10K for older machines, believing that - if properly maintained and not played too extensively as in public places - they will last for a life time. Otherwise I guess most people would stop spending fortunes for purchasing, maintaining and improving their machines.

    #6 7 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    As long as they arent worn out from being played too much, I would think they will be around for a very long time. Do you think that your coffee table or bedroom suit will be a pile of saw dust in 50 years?

    I am talking about relatively small adjustments in the wood. When a coffe table wood moves by few millimeters over 50 years, it's not a problem at all: I can still happily have coffee on it without even noticing. But few millimeters on a playfield can make serious damage.

    #7 7 years ago
    Quoted from Otaku:

    Wood is not a living material, it dies after it is cut. (Cells and whatnot, yadda yadda)
    Think of it as a branch, if you cut it off of a tree, all the leaves turn brown. It is dead. Not sure who told you wood was living after it was cut...

    From a website about wood: "Wood expands and contracts with changes in the surrounding humidity and to a lesser degree the temperature. More humid air will cause wood to expand; drier air will cause wood to contract. This movement cannot be stopped. You can learn what to expect and techniques to cope with the movement."

    #8 7 years ago
    Quoted from Luppin:

    I am talking about relatively small adjustments in the wood. When a coffe table wood moves by few millimeters over 50 years, it's not a problem at all: I can still happily have offee on it without even noticing. But few millimeters on a playfield can make serious damage.

    Well you see alot of old EM's that are 50-60 years old and even older than that I am sure, that still look great so there's your answer. I guess everything has a limit as to how long it will last but I dont know if a playfield will last 100 or 1,000 years honestly? We arent going to live long enough to know though, I can tell you that much. I just wonder who on here is going to be the first to say that modern Stern playfields only last about one week? You know its coming........

    #9 7 years ago

    he he

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    #10 7 years ago
    Quoted from Luppin:

    ..........." I've heard that all playfields are destined to become trash over time because of this."

    Where did you hear this?

    #11 7 years ago
    Quoted from electricsquirrel:

    Where did you hear this?

    I think it was KPG that told him that! lol

    #12 7 years ago

    Wood if well treated can last more than a life time.
    The playfields are not made of wood out of the trees. It's plywood. Which makes it last much more than wood.
    Water, rot and the wood worm (don't know how you say it in english but it's this one: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caruncho) can destroy the pfs in time. But that doesn't happen if you stored the pfs in a climate controlled environment.
    The wood can bend with the seasonal climate change. Again, this does not happen in a climate controlled environment.

    #13 7 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    Well you see alot of old EM's that are 50-60 years old and even older than that I am sure, that still look great so there's your answer. I guess everything has a limit as to how long it will last but I dont know if a playfield will last 100 or 1,000 years honestly? We arent going to live long enough to know though, I can tell you that much. I just wonder who on here is going to be the first to say that modern Stern playfields only last about one week? You know its coming........

    That's excellent news. I am into this hobby for two years only. In this time I have learned the main aspects of this hobby and now I am starting to ask myself big picture questions, because my collection has grown a bit and expenses are growing too. Although I am not going to be around after 100 years, I think it's interesting to understand scientifically what's going on, and eventually do things that can help protecting our machines. Also this help me to set a value for those machines. If you consider any historical stuff you can buy, their value is linked to rarity, quality, etc.. but also on lifespan. Some things last few years, other decades, and other centuries or milleniums: this aspect also has a big impact on their value.
    Now considering pinball machines: it looks like everything fails in those machines over the span of few years: boards, displays, mechs, lamps, rubbers, plastics, pinballs.... now even the playfield?? This make me think that the cost of owning a pinball machine over a long time is into keeping replacing failing parts. And in the first place I am also thinking about the evaluation of a used, old, already failing machine... Are we sure 20+ years old machines , with all those parts already failing, are worthed several thousands?

    #14 7 years ago

    The minimal changes in the wood caused by humidity probably aren't enough to shear the paint on the playfield, nor destroy it structurally. It'd have to be in a location that gets extremely humid and then extremely dry, not just one or the other, and that is just unrealistic.

    So, don't put it in a sauna and you'll be golden. You don't even have to baby this, either. It is seriously not a big deal, humidity is more threatening to electronics and contacts than the wood IMO.

    Quoted from electricsquirrel:

    Where did you hear this?

    Probably a playfield reproduction company

    #15 7 years ago
    Quoted from Luppin:

    Are we sure 20+ years old machines , with all those parts already failing, are worthed several thousands?

    I personally think you are overthinking this way too much. Pinball machines are not ticking time bombs, and not much of them degrade over time either, maybe just the easily replaceable rubbers if anything. Age is not very harmful to these machines. And to us, those 20 year old machines are still the new school, 20 years is not very old at all for pinball, remember that 20 years ago was 1996 rather than the 80's or 70's anymore.

    I have a decent sized collections of machines twice that old and they stand the test of time quite well, even more if the previous owner took good care of them. Time is not a problem. Bad storage and care is, but even then, not terrible.

    They are fine and will continue to be fine for a long time. They are not deteriorating before our eyes, they deteriorate mainly based on how much they get played rather than time itself.

    #16 7 years ago
    Quoted from Otaku:

    I personally think you are overthinking this way too much. Pinball machines are not ticking time bombs, and not much of them degrade over time either, maybe just the easily replaceable rubbers if anything. Age is not very harmful to these machines. And to us, those 20 year old machines are still the new school, 20 years is not very old at all for pinball, remember that 20 years ago was 1996 rather than the 80's or 70's anymore.
    I have a decent sized collections of machines twice that old and they stand the test of time quite well, even more if the previous owner took good care of them. Time is not a problem. Bad storage and care is, but even then, not terrible.
    They are fine and will continue to be fine for a long time. They are not deteriorating before our eyes, they deteriorate mainly based on how much they get played rather than time itself.

    Good to hear. I also have the same experience: all my machines are around 25 years old, I bought them in good conditions, I have improved them quite a bit, and they look and perform really well. So the test of 25 years has been passed positively, no doubt. At the same time I am into this hobby for only two years, so I am now starting to wonder (I' ve asked becasue I have no idea) what will happen over a long time in the future. I dont have a long term experience, so just asking opinions to people with more experience than me.

    At the same time I believe that the evaluation of those machines, like everything else, need to consider the future costs of maintenaince. I paid all my titles in the range €500/1500 (excluding my professionally fully restored TZ at 3k) and I am doubtful about the evaluation of certain titles (WPC95), especially considering the long term perspective and related costs involved.

    #17 7 years ago
    Quoted from Luppin:

    At the same time I believe that the evaluation of those machines, like everything else, need to consider the future costs of maintenaince. I paid all my titles in the range €500/1500 (excluding my professionally fully restored TZ at 3k) and I am doubtful about the evaluation of certain titles (WPC95), especially considering the long term perspective and related costs involved.

    As nice as that would be, nobody is going to drop their price because it will need maintenance in the future (it's a given), that is on you. Again, every machine will need it. These are not an investment.

    That is like a car salesman taking $500 off of the price of a brand new car to account for the oil changes it will obviously need for the next 20 years.

    The only thing I could see a price being dropped for is for a foreseeable problem, like a wire dangling by a thread, or a nearly fully broken piece of plastic, that the owner never got around to repairing himself but wanted to mention. I see warnings like that in listings all of the time. But you can't just expect people to take money off of their game sales because of things that may or may not happen in the future. That is not their problem or fault in the slightest. That is just pinball, or in the bigger picture, life. Again, these are not an investment, and it is not the seller's job to look out for you simply because it's old.

    These machines are only priced upon popularity, availability, and hype these days. We pay to own machines rather than actually pay for the cost of the machine internals, that was already done long ago by somebody else.

    #18 7 years ago

    Totally agree with you Otaku. So the whole point here is about the costs of maintenance of a machine. Im not a newbie, but only now I am starting to deeply understand the whole picture. And I realized that everything in a machine can/will eventually fail. Hopefully not the playfields!!

    Anyway, coming back to the supposed lifespan of machines: when machines were routed, they were played and seriosuly abused, turned on for long hours, sometimes 24/7, roughly and quickly fixed, etc. Now if you think about the care and love put on a machine by a proper collector, it's really the opposite situation. So if many machines made it through the rough years, it's also possible to be positive about the long run in a home use environment. The machines will surely need some relatively small constant expenditure, time and care. But they will also be used much less and will last much longer.
    Playfields are the most important part of the machine really. If waxed constantly and stored in climate controlled environment they should last for the decades to come. This is my hope.
    What do you think?

    #19 7 years ago

    This…

    Quoted from hassanchop:

    Wood if well treated can last more than a life time.
    The playfields are not made of wood out of the trees. It's plywood. Which makes it last much more than wood.
    Water, rot and the wood worm (don't know how you say it in english but it's this one: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caruncho) can destroy the pfs in time. But that doesn't happen if you stored the pfs in a climate controlled environment.
    The wood can bend with the seasonal climate change. Again, this does not happen in a climate controlled environment.

    Here is a 100+ year old solid plank from my loft (attic). 100+ as it was used when they put the roof on when the house was built 100+ years ago and it has only just come out as I made a larger hatch.
    1 (resized).jpg1 (resized).jpg

    This is what happens when the man applied and natural sealing is removed.
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    This is how it proceeded to peel.
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    Natural wood has a lifespan dependant on the conditions it is kept in and treated, without care the resin in the wood dries beyond a point where the natural fibre tension in the wood take over and delamination occurs as the resin is no longer acting like a glue.

    Will this happen to pinball playfields, Maybe, Planking appears to be a delamination happening on a small scale as ply is generally made from cross cut veneers.

    Can it be fixed, seem so.

    #20 7 years ago
    Quoted from Luppin:

    I am talking about relatively small adjustments in the wood. When a coffe table wood moves by few millimeters over 50 years, it's not a problem at all: I can still happily have coffee on it without even noticing. But few millimeters on a playfield can make serious damage.

    Actually you are seriously underestimating the amount of damage a playfield needs to affect your game. I had a Jackbot that someone had broken into with a crobar- the bottom right corner of the playfield was slightly warped and damaged from this. As hard as I tried I never noticed any effect during play.

    Plenty of us have 60-year old games and the playfields are fine. Almost all of us have 20-40 year old games and the playfields are fine.

    Find something else to worry about. Like chemtrails or a killer comet.

    #21 7 years ago

    I see that everybody agree that there is nothing to worry about. That is exactly the answer I hoped to get when asking.

    I am a total newbie on this subject, just asking. I heard different opinions recently from other pinheads, and I was wondering. Ok then, I will investigate chemtrails now that I have no more worries for pinball machines.. :DD

    #22 7 years ago

    So we can conclude that if we keep a machine in good conditions we can play even after we are dead!
    Trust me, I'm a forest engineer. (Not joking! I am a forest engineer, really!)

    #23 7 years ago

    Beeswax lol...I think things will be just fine in 100 years, look at all the antique furniture on Antiques Roadshow, the PF might have a nice patina. Check out this PF on a 1931 Whiffle I had...not bad for 85 years!

    146515c00872e1217cc96ab69338f87a21dc9d72 (resized).jpg146515c00872e1217cc96ab69338f87a21dc9d72 (resized).jpg

    #24 7 years ago

    Is it just me or are the topics around here getting weirder?

    #25 7 years ago

    Don't worry about the wood. Worry about the unavailable custom ICs or even off the shelf electronic parts that you won't be able to find or cost effectively purchase. That's what will make your games unplayable 30 years from now.

    Glad my passion is for EMs that will out last us all. Finding someone in 2046 to fix it, that will be the challenge for the next generation of collectors.

    #26 7 years ago

    I have playfields in storage that are over 60+ years old, and still look relatively new.
    I have personal games in my collection that are well over 30 years old (and in some cases owned nearly 30 years), my oldest game is 47 years of age.

    Once wood is properly treated with lacquer such as tuff coats used in wood rails, EMs, and early SS, composite coatings for solid state and alphanumeric, or clear coats like games from 1989 and up, and the playfields / games are well treated in climate controlled environments, and the playfields waxed, they will still be around in 100 years or beyond.
    Backglasses fair FAR FAR WORSE if not protected.
    If a collector knows what can happen, they can even avoid some effects like "planking" caused by temperature variations, moisture conditions, and avoid use of the damn operator "cheater bar" that causes torsion and twisting on the playfield.

    We are not talking about wood exposed to outdoor elements, or items that get moved constantly with glue delamination.
    Nor are we talking about routed games that get beat to living hell due to operator neglect.

    If someone is telling another that playfields are going to turn into sawdust in x number of years, they need to cut back on the weed.

    Bottom line?
    Good news, the games will outlive you, just like finely made guitars or violins.

    Example:
    Here is a detailed photo of a 1950 GTB Knock Out that is 66 years old in a private collection that I uploaded to PinSide a while back.
    How does it look?
    This should give you a happy face.
    (BTW this is a REALLY nice example of this game)

    93b1c889a77a3477479212708a662bfeb8d3dab7.jpg93b1c889a77a3477479212708a662bfeb8d3dab7.jpg

    #27 7 years ago
    Quoted from Luppin:

    I am talking about relatively small adjustments in the wood. When a coffe table wood moves by few millimeters over 50 years, it's not a problem at all: I can still happily have coffee on it without even noticing. But few millimeters on a playfield can make serious damage.

    So you are saying this 100 year old ruler is no good for measuring anymore?

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    #28 7 years ago
    Quoted from electricsquirrel:

    Where did you hear this?

    He read it on the internet. So, it must be true......

    #29 7 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    So you are saying this 100 year old ruler is no good for measuring anymore?

    it depends from the type of wood, type of usage, storing conditions, etcetera. So it looks like there is agreement that playfield plywood (not the best quality of wood by the way), if stored properly and properly maintained, will last very long.

    I don't understand why so many people reacted quite badly to this question. I just wanted to find out and wrote about my doubts.

    -1
    #30 7 years ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    He read it on the internet. So, it must be true......

    On the internet there are excellent sources of information. I am very good at distinguishing the good sources from the bad ones. I read about wood. Simply about wood. On a site about wood. Not about pinball playfields. So I came here and discussed about my doubts. I am ignorant about the subject and asked opinions of people who know better than me. Sorry for casting doubts about pinball machines. Everything is perfectly fine with the components of our beloved machines, and always be, forever. You do not need to learn anything else, you already know everything. Do not add details to your knowledge. And especially never ask yourself questions that can destabilize your certainties.

    #31 7 years ago

    It's o.k., just seemed an odd question/statement. Even if the wood changed another millimeter or two in another 50 years on an already 50 year playfield, I don't think you would notice much of anything at all with the wood itself. Paint, well that's a different matter...and in your original post you specifically mentioned clear coating. That's a pretty darn good preservative measure. I think you can rest assured - they're not gonna fall apart, and they certainly not going to turn to sawdust. They're gonna last a very long time.

    #32 7 years ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    Is it just me or are the topics around here getting weirder?

    Maybe. After waxing PF I also ordered Viagra as a result of this thread.

    #34 7 years ago

    unearthed (resized).JPGunearthed (resized).JPG

    #35 7 years ago

    #36 7 years ago

    Every five to ten years you should change out all the wood in the walls of your house to insure structural integrity.

    #37 7 years ago

    This 100 million year old mosquito is protected with ...... um what it called? clearcoat?

    2be7d19bf55e5eb632caa44eb813f215 (resized).jpg2be7d19bf55e5eb632caa44eb813f215 (resized).jpg

    #38 7 years ago

    Now we know were Wayout440 stores his used parts.

    #39 7 years ago

    I live in Hastings, England, in the Old Town. Our house was built around 1525 and is wood beamed. It's pretty solid. However, it's an interesting subject here. Paintings made on wood panels have survived for hundreds of years. But there are so many variables, prediction is difficult. In terms of a good playfield, kept in reasonable conditions, I would say playable for 200 years. Because of the nature of the components, it would be possible for an em machine discovered after say 1000 years and 'reverse engineered' to be a guide for making all the (rusty) coils, switches, etc etc new from scratch, paint a new playfield using the old one as a guide, ditto backglass, new cabinet (easy peasy), all this probably not a problem for the people of 3016. So a playable replica possible, based on the ancient machine - and that original machine would have significant value as the "model" on which the playable replica/s would be based (and would look good in a museum). Later machines with digital components? Likely the people of 3016 will be sufficiently advanced to sort those out too. Let's hope Pinside is still going to help them with any problems. Otherwise they'll have to phone Steve......

    #40 7 years ago
    Quoted from CactusJack:

    Don't worry about the wood. Worry about the unavailable custom ICs or even off the shelf electronic parts that you won't be able to find or cost effectively purchase. That's what will make your games unplayable 30 years from now.
    Glad my passion is for EMs that will out last us all. Finding someone in 2046 to fix it, that will be the challenge for the next generation of collectors.

    Not too worried about the 30-year old ic chips. You can buy brand new boards for many 40-year old games right now.

    #41 7 years ago

    Say hello to my little friends.

    termites-1 (resized).jpgtermites-1 (resized).jpg

    #42 7 years ago

    Something people might like to know.

    Most playfields made out of birch (the most common wood used) are a laminate wood composite material with multiple layers stacked together.
    This "formula" has essential remained unchanged for over 75 years since the 1940s.
    This gives playfields added strength and resistance to wear, while reducing its cost.
    If you look at a cross section you will see the laminate layers.
    The shooter lane sort of gives an indication, but only represents part of the surface layers.
    This is good news because if a playfield was made of pure plywood, most games would "$#@! up a creek" in less than 20 years.
    Although it would be nice to have playfields made out of pure hardwoods, the expense is just not justifiable.
    The are also harder to cut and bore for inserts without cracking or splitting.

    Cabinets materials on the other hand have changed many times, which is one reason why they "give up the ghost" much sooner.
    Some pinball cabinets are made very cheaply, and will start to have problems in less than 10 years.
    Not every cabinet was made by Churchill either, contrary to belief of some.

    Termites are the worst enemy of any pinball machine, although there are other wood boring insects that also make their homes in games.
    You can safeguard against this problem as long as machines are inspected regularly in these world regions, and take precautions to make them "taste bad".

    #43 7 years ago
    Quoted from Luppin:

    Wood is a living material. I've heard that all playfields are destined to become trash over time because of this. Is it true? I am asking especially regarding clearcoated playfields. Some of them are now 25+ years old, and still in very good conditions. But after another 30 or 50 years, what will happen to these playfields (stored in a climate controlled environment)?

    Same as antique wooden furniture. My Grandad had a rocking chair from 1771. Still worked well in his living room in 1990.

    #44 7 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    So you are saying this 100 year old ruler is no good for measuring anymore?

    That depends on who you're measuring!

    #45 7 years ago
    Quoted from oldtowner:

    I live in Hastings, England, in the Old Town. Our house was built around 1525 and is wood beamed. It's pretty solid.... Likely the people of 3016 will be sufficiently advanced to sort those out too. Let's hope Pinside is still going to help them with any problems....

    Lloyd will be around then too, cheerfully solving issues and offering quips. And he knows where the bodies are buried. Topic should shift focus to the best ways of keeping LTG propped up behind the counter of S & S and termite-free. The playfields should be fine.

    #46 7 years ago
    Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

    Lloyd will be around then too, cheerfully solving issues and offering quips. And he knows where the bodies are buried. Topic should shift focus to the best ways of keeping LTG propped up behind the counter of S & S and termite-free. The playfields should be fine.

    Wtf?

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