(Topic ID: 138471)

Tech Guru Needed: AFM Resetting

By Skins

6 years ago


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  • 49 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by jints56
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 6 years ago

So I'm close to wrapping up my restoration and while tweaking switches and such, the game started resetting in attract mode. Boards were serviced by Clive. First power on everything was great. Also, when the Martian coils go off in the game it resets but in coil test it doesn't. Where to start?

#3 6 years ago

I'll check voltages but most of the wiki assumes faulty boards or diodes. The boards were completely serviced and a connections are fresh. Additionally, it is resetting in attract without hitting both flippers. I was hoping there was somewhere to start looking assuming the boards are rebuilt.

#4 6 years ago

So I'm a moron with a dmm but the service outlet reads 120v. The part where I get confused on my dmm is when testing tp102, the voltages jump all over the place. From OL, to 5v-16v. Never settling on a reading. I'm not sure if I have my dmm set wrong or what. Additionally, when I got the game, the secondary inturupter was not plugged in. I plugged it in. I'm not sure if that could be the cause or not but I thought I should mention it. Whatever the issue is, it seems to be degrading and getting worse. One last piece of info, though I don't think it matters is Clive put a remote battery holder on the board but I haven't put batteries in it but I that shouldn't matter.

#5 6 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

The boards were completely serviced and a connections are fresh.

And new parts never prematurely fail or anything else either.

LTG : )™

#6 6 years ago

Dang - I read through your entire restoration thread a few days ago and wish you the best..... Does it do it with the pf disco'd?

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from mountaingamer:

Dang - I read through your entire restoration thread a few days ago and wish you the best..... Does it do it with the pf disco'd?

Thanks man. I'll get it figured out eventually. I'm certain it's something simple I'm overlooking. I'll start with the most simple and obvious things first.

#8 6 years ago

So, the first thing out of the gate I checked may be the culprit. I removed the j103 connector and didn't have a single reset in nearly 10 minutes of being powered on. Would a grounded light socket cause resetting? By taking the gi out of the loop, my resetting stopped. As stated before, Clive at coinop cauldron serviced the boards and the j103 connector was replaced/upgraded. image.jpgimage.jpg

#9 6 years ago

Your 5v causes resets. I see nothing mentioned here about you measuring this. Put the connector back in, find the test point for 5v (and 12v as well), and measure both. Take the GI AC in connector out and measure it again. I'm not sure why the GI would have anything to do with this.

That is where I would start.

#10 6 years ago

Does it do it if you disconnect the UFO expansion and just run the GI stock? I saw there was some question about how you should be hooking it up.

#11 6 years ago

Maybe a weak Thermistor in the AC power unit? adding GI puts a much larger load on the transformer. if the transformer is not getting full AC (117VAC) then all voltages may be lower, especially when the transformer is fully loaded down.

#12 6 years ago

I believe the AC service outlet is wired before the Thermistor so measuring there wont give you the true reading. Try maeasuring at white and black at the transformer connector.

#13 6 years ago

Thanks for the replies. I'll be home shortly and will investigate further. I have a sneaking suspicion what it might be.

#14 6 years ago

So tp2 is solid above 5v when j103 isn't connected

Tp2 below 5v with j103 connected

Resetting and readings as it happens with j103 connected. Then j103 disconnected and voltage stabilizes with no restarts.

Pic of service box volts at molex plug.
image.jpg

Where do I look next. I swear it seems like something is shorted/grounded out. As for the rest of the wiki; I know the driver board is securely grounded, all components tested and suspect ones replaced.

#15 6 years ago

One other question. I want to see what the voltages are coming off j103. Where do put the common probe (on the ground braid?) to test the pins?

#16 6 years ago

So I did as Herg suggested and disconnected all power to the bill ung kit. I played nearly 10 minutes without a reset. Now where to look?

#17 6 years ago

*edit* never mind all this, seems like you narrowed it down.

When you tested for 5v at TP2, did you also test at pin 32 of the game rom? Should be within a couple hundredths.

I just did some reset issue troubleshooting on a fish tales and think that a crispy j115 molex was causing my resets. After replacing the plug, my 5v was solid at both test points.

Here's a link to my thread...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/j115-pins-have-no-power-fishtales

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from JosephT:

*edit* never mind all this, seems like you narrowed it down.
When you tested for 5v at TP2, did you also test at pin 32 of the game rom? Should be within a couple hundredths.
I just did some reset issue troubleshooting on a Fish Tales and think that a crispy j115 molex was causing my resets. After replacing the plug, my 5v was solid at both test points.
Here's a link to my thread...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/j115-pins-have-no-power-fishtales

Thanks for the reply. Pin 32 of the game rom resulted in 5.2v

So I added the main ung board and played several games totaling roughly 10 minutes with no reset. Added the expansion board into the loop and the resets returned. I'm not sure where to head next.

#19 6 years ago

I'm pretty sure I have it narrowed down to the ung expansion board. Yes I have reached out to him. At any rate, hopefully someone might have any ideas or suggestions.

Test reading with bill ung expansion board hooked up and the reading at the game rom pin 32. Reading below 5v

Test reading without bill ung expansion board hooked up and the reading at the game rom pin 32. Reading below rock solid above 5v

#20 6 years ago

Maybe something weird with that socket with the wire attached? It's a wild guess, but that always seemed like something easy to mess up. It's also tapping into 5V logic.

#21 6 years ago

Looks like your not the first to have a issue with whatever that ung mod thingy is:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/anyone-familiar-with-the-bill-ung-mods

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from mountaingamer:

Looks like your not the first to have a issue with whatever that ung mod thingy is:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/anyone-familiar-with-the-bill-ung-mods

LOL. Same guy, here.

#23 6 years ago

Ha. Yeah that was me. LOL. That ended up being the diodes on the driver board. This is something different.

#24 6 years ago

So I took a long video showing the 5v reading to show the fluctuations. At roughly the 3:13 mark (of course just as I pan to the boards. Oh and my apologies for my daughter yelling for the wet dog to get of the couch) the game resets in attract mode. Both bill ung boards are plugged in.

Additionally, I threw in a a kahr 5v daughter board (not for this video) and all resetting went away even with both ung boards in place. I also reseated the little rom carrier with the yellow wire attached to it on the main ung board which didn't prevent resetting. Any ideas?!?

#25 6 years ago

So I double checked the voltages between tp101 and pin 32 on the game rom without either bill ung board powered up. The reading was 5.09v on both tp101 and pin 32. No loss of voltage between the two.

With one bill ung board powered on, The reading was 5.09v on both tp101 and pin 32. No loss of voltage between the two.

With both bill ung boards powered on, The readings are unstable, jumping from 5.07 down to the 4.8's on both tp101 and pin 32. Can't determine loss of voltage between the two.

I spoke with bill ung who pinned the issue on the driver board. When I told him Clive rebuilt it and showed him what was done as well as the videos showing the readings told me maybe Clive has a suggestion because he doesn't. Any help would be appreciated. I have went step by step on the wiki and without the boards everything is great. With only one ung board, everything is great. Both boards not so great.

Any help?

#26 6 years ago

The 5v should not really be going above 5v. And an extra GI load (esp with LEDs) should not cause a significant drop in 5v.

Based on my experiences with fixing games/boards that Clive "fixed" he probably threw a resistor mod on the 5v regulator on the back of the board to cheat an increase in 5v. The problem is that he leaves other old components in place rather than truly rebuilding it and fluctuations like this easily occur and cause issues further down the line.

Do you have another wpc95 game that you can swap the power driver board into to test?

#27 6 years ago
Quoted from ReplayRyan:

The 5v should not really be going above 5v. And an extra GI load (esp with LEDs) should not cause a significant drop in 5v.
Based on my experiences with fixing games/boards that Clive "fixed" he probably threw a resistor mod on the 5v regulator on the back of the board to cheat an increase in 5v. The problem is that he leaves other old components in place rather than truly rebuilding it and fluctuations like this easily occur and cause issues further down the line.
Do you have another wpc95 game that you can swap the power driver board into to test?

Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately I don't have another driver board. I would be disappointed if that truly was how the board was serviced. Without a doubt, when the Ung boards aren't hooked up (or just one board), the game is a solid 5.07v. There is no loss of volts across tp101 to the game rom pin 32 either. So if as you say, it shouldn't be above 5v, I'm going to pull the driver board and look at what I see even though I have no idea what I'm looking for. Btw, this was what Clive told me was done to the driver board: WPC-95 Power Driver board (SN 53341103598): Removed burning P600D rectifier diodes and installed 8x zero ohm resistors in General Ilumination circuit. Fuses removed and checked, -- 2x 4 amp (F107, F114) and 6.3 amp (F108) slow blow fuses due to incorrect ratings. Capacitors measured. Replaced leaky capacitors; -- 2x 100uf/50v/105c (C1, C40) and 2x 100uf.100v (C22, C23). Remaining filter capacitors measured and tested fine. ULN2803A IC(U3) and 18-pin socket replaced as standard due to high failure rate. J101, J103, J104, J105 and J106 headers upgraded to high temperature. Capacitors, fuse holders and various areas around board had solder reflowed to fix suspect solder joints. All transistors curve-trace. Board cleaned-up. Two-tier full functional testing

#28 6 years ago

never mind.... I was thinking the same thing trying to swap the driver board. If once the board was serviced and bench tested I'm sure Clive thought it was good to go, and I doubt he loads them up with mods just to see what may happen. At least the kahr board keeps it running - I'd let Clive know what's happening - maybe he might want the board back for another look. Not all components get swapped when they are rebuilt - just those that test out of tolerance, are bad, or known to fail or cause issues.

#29 6 years ago

It looks like you and the folks chiming in have done some pretty good troubleshooting.
I really doubt that Clive would have implemented the 5V regulator resistor hack (step 42 in the PinWiki). Clive is a solid tech from what I hear.

Have you repinned the female connector at J101 and J129?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

It looks like you and the folks chiming in have done some pretty good troubleshooting.
I really doubt that Clive would have implemented the 5V regulator resistor hack (step 42 in the PinWiki). Clive is a solid tech from what I hear.
Have you repinned the female connector at J101 and J129?
-A-
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Thanks Chris. I haven't for two reasons. 1st, I wasn't sure it was needed since it was stable without both mod boards and 2nd, I have never put a new connector on where the wire loops back through. What about getting more than 5v's @ tp101?

#31 6 years ago

I wouldn't be too concerned about 5.1 or 5.2. No big deal.
The power level is dipping when the reset occurs.
Without the mods, power might be just enough. With the mods, more power is pulled, and "just enough" is no longer enough.
If you look through the back of those connectors, and the are bronze colored, they need to be replaced.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#32 6 years ago

No bronze color on connectors. I replaced the only slightly discolored one at j106. The thing with the readings is, it is solid at 5.07v stock or with only one ung board, doesn't matter which one so long as both aren't connected. With both, it isn't a rapid decline to the reset threshold, rather the voltage jumps all over the place swing widely from roughly 5.01 to a low of 4.77. Just doesn't make sense. Everything by the wiki checks out. So just to be clear, 5.07 is within specs because I most certainly get the at tp101 and game rom pin 32 and it's a steady 5.07v with no fluctuation? I'm guessing I may have to buy a rotten dog which sucks considering I just had the board serviced.

#33 6 years ago

Well...before doing that, I'd replace the 5V filter cap.
Since you've inspected the connectors, that's about all that is left.
Clive probably tested that cap with an ESR meter and it tested good. Still, that would be my next step. They aren't easy to get out...you may pull the through holes.

If you want to send it to me, I can take care of it, and test the board in my AFM.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#34 6 years ago

I'll tell you what I would do at this point. Scrap that old 5v regulator, and get one of these:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lm323-replacement-released-at-ezsbccom

Read my last post and how it has done wonders for other oddball 5v issues that the usual repairs do not remedy. It’s my belief that the old regulators become stressed, even though reading a solid 5v, at times, and this causes drops.

Anytime I have this conclusion, I swap the old LM323 with one of these switchers, and it has worked 100%.

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Well...before doing that, I'd replace the 5V filter cap.
Since you've inspected the connectors, that's about all that is left.
Clive probably tested that cap with an ESR meter and it tested good. Still, that would be my next step. They aren't easy to get out...you may pull the through holes.
If you want to send it to me, I can take care of it, and test the board in my AFM.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

I would like to do that.

#36 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Well...before doing that, I'd replace the 5V filter cap.
Since you've inspected the connectors, that's about all that is left.
Clive probably tested that cap with an ESR meter and it tested good. Still, that would be my next step. They aren't easy to get out...you may pull the through holes.
If you want to send it to me, I can take care of it, and test the board in my AFM.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Sent you a pm Chris.

Quoted from Atomicboy:

I'll tell you what I would do at this point. Scrap that old 5v regulator, and get one of these:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lm323-replacement-released-at-ezsbccom
Read my last post and how it has done wonders for other oddball 5v issues that the usual repairs do not remedy. It’s my belief that the old regulators become stressed, even though reading a solid 5v, at times, and this causes drops.
Anytime I have this conclusion, I swap the old LM323 with one of these switchers, and it has worked 100%.

Thanks. Definitely look into it. I'm open for anything at this point.

#37 6 years ago

So I was fidgeting with it some more and maybe stumbled on something, maybe not. I unplugged the a/v board power and plugged it in and it resets immediately every time I do it. Is it a function of me doing it while the game is on or could this be my culprit. I seem to remember reading that if it bongs on a reset that means the a board reset to. Is this something or am I chasing my tail.

#38 6 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Additionally, I threw in a a kahr 5v daughter board (not for this video) and all resetting went away even with both ung boards in place.

This is the smoking gun.
The Kahr board uses the 12V power circuit to create 5VDC. It's an alternate path to create 5VDC. That means that the regular path on your driver board can't handle the load on the 5V circuit.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#39 6 years ago

I figured as much Chris. To be clear, I didn't play 10 games or hours on end with it in. I did play what amounted to a full game by hand manaully hitting switches, activating modes, hitting both flippers at the same time, trying to induce a reset for approximately 10 minutes with no resets. Took the daughter board out and it reset and couldn't complete a game by hand. So when you say "regular path" that its on the driver board itself? I did try testing the 5v using various screws holding the ground metal backbox board to be sure the driver board was grounded properly and I got the same readings regardless. I suppose I should has just done a continuity test.

#40 6 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

So when you say "regular path" that its on the driver board itself?

Yes, via the 5V regulator on the board. It's an LM317 IIRC.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#41 6 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Yes, via the 5V regulator on the board. It's an LM317 IIRC.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Eeek, is there no LM323 on 95s? I have not had a low 5v issue on a 95 before, and assumed they still used the 323. Sorry.

#42 6 years ago

So after pulling the board and inspecting the backside, I could only find one thing that didn't look factory. It's a small metal jumper from the blueish cap leg next to the voltage regulator. Just below j138/139 in the first picture. I'm not sure if it's anything but I figured it would post a picture here in the event it was. Let me know if it shows up in the picture. image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg

#43 6 years ago

Looks like there is an extra 5 Volt connection made from C1 to SR1 ( magenta line)
wpc95 PDB -----wire-----.jpg

#44 6 years ago

Thanks zaza. Your sketches are always great and perfect for laymen. Thank you. Looking at your diagram, you are correct, I think I named the wrong cap, I think you are correct. So, does this qualify as a 5v hack and if so could this be my resetting problem?

#45 6 years ago

It is not a 5V hack but maybe done because there was a connection problem with the pull-up resistor network (SR1) in the past.
The 2 outer pins of 10 should have connection with 5Volt = red line in picture.

#46 6 years ago

Thanks for the explanation. So no chance it could be the cause of 5v my resetting issue detailed here?

#47 6 years ago

No,I would rather check D7 - D10. Their solder doesn't look to fresh and measure them with DigMultimeter.
WPC95 - D07-10.jpg.

#48 6 years ago

So a small victory. Pinsider Jints56 graciously lent me a spare driver board he had serviced. Put it in the game with both bill ung boards plugged in and no resetting after 20 minutes of game play and another 10 minutes in attract mode. In the video the 5v stays steady at 5.09v. Nothing like the wild swings I was getting.

So it seams my board that was just serviced is faulty and has been shipped off for a second look. Thanks again jints.

#49 6 years ago

Glad to help

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