(Topic ID: 184386)

Aerosmith owner? Then walk this way!

By TimeBandit

2 years ago

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  • Latest reply 1 day ago by DirtyDeeds
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Topic index (key posts)

4 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #253 KISS shooter lane protector on Aerosmith Posted by Shapeshifter (2 years ago)

Post #575 Toybox Kickout protector pictures Posted by cooked71 (2 years ago)

Post #616 Full protector set pic for Prem/LE Aerosmith Posted by Pin_Guy (1 year ago)

Post #1246 Spike and Spike 2 sudden reset fix information Posted by vireland (1 year ago)

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#82 2 years ago
Quoted from djreddog:

I'm one of the lucky ones. She loves pinball. Plays tournaments. And has seen Aerosmith 4 times and it's one of her favorite bands. It's definitely hers!

Hah ... I use that too. I'm another one of the lucky ones. Mine wanted WOZ ... got it. Then she wanted Hobbit ... got it for her as a surprise. Now she doesn't know which she likes more ... DI or AS Prem. Decisions ...

#84 2 years ago
Quoted from vireland:

Dialed In or AS Prem? Dialed In wins that one.

I'm thinking AS NIB and DI used next year. We'll see.

9 months later
#873 1 year ago

Joined the owner's club last weekend with a HUO used AS Prem that had about 175 plays on it. We play the Pro version quite a bit at some local arcades and only played the Prem a few times at shows. We like the extra things to shoot for and the easier to qualify elevator locks. The Prem is just more fun for home use in our opinion with some added shots. The upper playfield isn't much ... but it does add to some of the game play and strategy.

We are thinking about adding a shaker and saw in previous posts that it is not used much, maybe more will be added with future code. Does it just shake when the toy box opens, or are there other times it shakes too? Like maybe the VIP blast at launch?

#879 1 year ago

Just wondering ... I bought a AS Prem used and the bulbs under the plastics are white, blue, and red. Is this the way it is NIB? Or are they all white? Manual says white, yet I watched some AS videos and they are the same color scheme.

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#881 1 year ago
Quoted from Meegis:

Tricolor is normal

Okay, thanks!

1 week later
#936 1 year ago
Quoted from pinden007:

I didn’t think the timers counted down when the ball is in the pops.

That's what I noticed too. Same with "some" initial time up on the upper play field on a Prem when you hit the elevator shot.

#981 1 year ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I love AS and i dont plan on getting rid of it because its very good, but i just got a MET Premium yesterday and the answer to your question is a definite no. Metallica is absolutely amazing and great fun.

WOW who-dey ... is the honeymoon with AS over? Didn't see that one coming. You're cheating on AS with MET. [Just joking]

Quoted from pninja005:

So is AS better than MET?

If this isn't a trolling post, I would say if this is for home use, go with whichever band you like better. My wife and I love MET, played it very often on locations, but it is like chopping wood and isn't super hard. If you want it for a newbie crowd, it is great. For a tournament type player - too easy. We are mediocre players, but would still think about getting a MET Prem if a REALLY good deal pops up for one. We just got an AS Prem a few weeks ago and like AS music better. Premium is MUCH better than a pro. We have played games on AS Pros at least 100 times each at locations. Premium has better game play. You might think the upper playfield isn't worth the extra money, and I would have previously agreed with that. But for home use, get as much out of the game play options as you can. Pro is perfectly fine for locations. We'll see how the "lastability" is for AS with us, but we currently like it a lot, and guests love it and can't get enough of it (and other pins in our collection). I'm sure guests would love the MET also if we had it. They are similar in ways, so ... as I said previously ... go with the music you like best and you will probably be happy. Or ... just get both. MET kind of set the standard for a few "similar" pins that followed because it was popular. Play them both at least 10 times before you make your final decision to buy.

1 week later
#1050 1 year ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

AS might be our first NIB. Played Pro, had a blast, music rocks. Now which one...Pro or Prem.

This has been commented on a few times for the past couple of pages in this thread. Start reading from back a couple of pages.

If you are asking this question, then you can afford the price jump for the premium, right? Go for it, you wont regret it. I played the Pro at least a hundred times on locations and shows, and the premium was only found to be played maybe 20 times for us at shows. We made the decision to go with a HUO used Prem. There is more there for elevator multi-ball, coming down from the upper play field you can get a toy box lock if you go back down the elevator, or possibly activate the 2x multiplier by completing the loop up there. For home use, there is just more there to play and shoot for, and more strategy. That is a good thing for home use if you hope to keep it long term. That doesn't matter to some people - does it to you? If you just plan to buy one, play it for a while, then sell it, you will take a hit on a prem for what it will sell for. Can you accept that with no regrets? The Pro seems to be taking a smaller hit for used sales. If you're in it for the long haul, go premium ... you will have more fun with it and the "lastability" will probably be better. But ... always try them both before you buy one. Everyone's fun factor values are different.

#1052 1 year ago

There could be some sort of variations in machines or setup, but at most I only get about 25% of ramp returns going SDTM. Let's face it, a ramp return is a missed shot - I hate when that happens, but get that on Pro ramps also at locations we play, but admittedly it is a little less often. Mine is setup to be within 0.05 degrees from level from side to side and at 6.5 degrees for play field angle. I rarely get ramp rejects (that clunk around at the top of the ramp and return). Most of my ramp returns would be from missed shots on the upper play field. Hitting the posts on either side of the ramp usually just sends the ball back down on the right side of the play field to hit something else. The flipper strength on mine shoots the ball all the way up the ramp and around pretty consistently. The shot isn't nearly as tight as the Houdini right side shots.

I'm one of the people that dislikes GB because of the cheap drains from missing a few different shots on the play field, so I would speak out if it was just as bad. It's definitely not nearly that bad. Not trying to start an argument, just want to make a counter-point and comparisons in my opinion for the ones asking the Pro vs. Prem question. Play them both about 10 times and compare for yourself before you buy.

1 week later
#1092 1 year ago
Quoted from JimB:

Just installed the Stern topper and gee whiz can they save any more money? The RJ45 cable is too short to feed through the wire guides. Another inch or two please. The manual doesn't even show it that tight when they installed theirs.

Yes, Mine was that way too. I'm even missing a bolt on the front that I have been begging for with no response.

#1096 1 year ago
Quoted from Blu:

It is song specific. You only need to make 1 shot for some, 3-5 for others, and all for some. It’s basically easy, medium, and hard songs. For all of them though the super scoring values go up for mor completed shots before time runs out.

Is there a list for how many coins (completed shots) are required for each song someplace?

Walk this way auto completes after 1 shot if times out, plus one shot after that for super ramps, but how many coins possible before auto complete?
Rats in the Cellar auto completes after 1 shot if times out, plus one shot after that for super spinners, but how many coins possible before auto complete?
Dude looks like a Lady does not auto complete, requires X shots to complete?
Etc ... ???

A list like this would be helpful for us mediocre players. Does it exist already?

#1105 1 year ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Coins are different than shots/petals to complete a song. I think 3 songs are able to be completed on 1 shot and then an optional Super Shot. The rest you need to complete all shots. But the number of shots needed to complete differs for these songs (8, 10 and 12). Only Sweet Emotion doesn’t allow you to continue so you need to do it all at once.
Tilt forums has a Rulesheets here: http://tiltforums.com/search?context=topic&context_id=2499&q=Coins%20&skip_context=true
Rats in the Cellar - doesn’t require all shots – 8 Shots to complete – optional: Super Spinner
Last Child - 8 Shots to complete: Super Orbits
Walk This Way – doesn’t require all shots- 8 Shots to complete – optional: Super Ramps
Dude Look Like a Lady - 10 Shots to complete: Super Lanes
Same Old Song and Dance - 10 Shots to complete: Super Targets
Back in the Saddle – doesn’t require all shots - 8 Shots to complete – optional: Super Pops
Sweet Emotion – 12 Shots to complete: Super Scoring (timed scoring round)
Not really clear on what coins do. I think they’re not really utilized at the moment.

Thanks! I'll have to look up number of shots for the multiball Toys in the Attic and Love in an Elevator. I get one coin count for every shot (shown on the right side of the screen), and they drop back to zero when the song is completed ... so if they are different I would wonder why they seem to match and disappear. Sweet emotion definitely doesn't carry over to a new ball.

#1106 1 year ago
Quoted from bicyclenut:

Topper or no topper? I haven't seen one in person, but from the pics it looks kinda small. Is it worth the $400? I bought the Stern topper for my GB and love it. It's also huge.

Way overpriced for what it is now. When it first came out the reveal said that code would be developed to make it more interactive. I hope this is not all that it will be, but I like how it interacts with the music and is not "sound activated". The sound activated toppers get set off when neighboring pins make noise. This one follows each song with different patterns for each song. By no means am I promoting to get one because of the price, but we like it, and hopefully more "hard wired" interactivity will be developed for it.

1 week later
#1167 1 year ago
Quoted from jrio101:

Thanks to hooked for the awesome mod.

They look great. Mine have a high pitch sound coming from each of them. Do yours have that? Not super loud, but you can hear it when there is a pause in the game sounds. It's there all the time with the game powered up

#1198 1 year ago
Quoted from bgwilly31:

Trust me this wasn't a play better problem. It was plunge poppers straight nothing but net right out lane. I closed the right out lane the one notch. Which I reluctantly did. But the only post I see by the pops is in between the top and bottom pop. Nothing at the bottom.

There is an outer rail that the ball runs along during the launch before the pops. Maybe loosen that and adjust it out as much as the screw holes will allow. I played a PRO on location a lot and the auto-launch would send it SDTM 90% of the time, so I would have to pop the plunger to pop up the ball off of the auto-plunge mechanism before that fired, then do a softer plunge after that. When I got my premium, it never did that, but does always hit the left-most pop bumper far enough to not just be a ricochet on down but actually pop around up there for a while. Might be worth a try to see what happens.

1 week later
#1295 1 year ago

Check out the flipper fidelity options for the speakers that have the same mounting pattern. You can order them with a lower profile if you eventually want to get a speaker light kit. That's the route I'm going on the next credit card billing cycle.

#1324 1 year ago
Quoted from DugFreez:

This is a set of replacement speaker plates that have the bars removed from the speaker holes, It also makes it so the speaker holes can be centered in the honeycomb area. As well as providing 4 mounting points for each speaker instead of the factory 2. It comes in the same flat textured black material as the original factory plates and they should be posted on my website for sale in the next few weeks.

Great ... been waiting for these new speaker plates too that you had previously mentioned you were working on. I'll order it all once you have these available. Then the old speakers can just stay mounted to the old plates in case I should ever want to swap them back out for selling it. Not currently in my plans to sell it, but ya never know. Could always mount the old ones under a swap box in some way to do something quirky/geeky too.

3 weeks later
#1396 1 year ago
Quoted from Crile1:

My game arrives Tuesday. Just checked out the Iron Maiden thread and saw cabinet splitting issues are being discussed. I remember hearing about these with Aerosmith in the early run. Mine will be home use only on carpet with sliders. Do I need to get the B/W brackets to install? No issues on my SW premium after 800+ plays and it is just as arrived from factory.

I bought a set of brackets and they arrived a couple of days ago. I will probably install them this weekend ... just in case. Better to error on the side of caution than to be sorry you didn't.

#1398 1 year ago

Installing cliffys on a premium (see photos for those that are curious about the ones under the upper playfield), but have a question. Did anyone install a cliffy switch protector on the switch above the lock where it appears that the upper playfield ball drops on or near? See first photo for the switch that I am talking about. If you did, does the ball sometimes get hung up on it?

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#1408 1 year ago
Quoted from Moeman65:

Yes, but it's also referred to as the upper right eject hole.

Did you install a cliffy switch slot protector over the roll over switch further up the playfield from that square hole? If not, did you see any signs of wear at that switch - near where the ball drops from the upper playfield on a premium?

3 weeks later
#1511 1 year ago
Quoted from cscmtp:

So guys that have had this from the beginning, are you still playing it as much? Would you buy again? There is a Prem somewhat local to me, selling for $6400 with topper, or $6200 without. Just curious how many would buy again or buy at that price. I know for me personally, I've had games that I loved early on, and then got VERY tired of VERY fast (Hobbit, Avengers LE)

I've only had my premium for about 4 months and still love it. Just had a party yesterday and it was one of the favorites that people were attracted to. I wouldn't go with the pro for HUO ... so much more in the game with the premium with the easier elevator qualifications, 2x scoring is easier ... it changes the game strategy a bit. The Pro is still "ok" that we have played many times at locations, we just prefer the premium ... more to do for a HUO ... and you don't get to see/play the premiums that much out on locations.

1 week later
#1544 1 year ago
Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

I have been shamefully checking Stern's Code Release everyday in hopes of greatness.
This code release will be the deciding factor for me. Will it stay or will it go.

We put our trust in you to alert the media (this pinside thread) when you see the new code release. It's a big responsibility, but you will get lots of up votes for it in return ... if you are the first to post it.

#1551 1 year ago

After having this pin for 4 months and a few hundred plays, I got my first game reset/reboot in the middle of ball 3. I have installed the two bulletin fixes with the capacitors, so I guess that doesn't solve this one. I didn't upgrade to the latest software that was suppose to help … was waiting for the summer upgrade. Guess I will update the software with the mini update anyway. Did anyone get anymore resets after that software update?

#1555 1 year ago
Quoted from djreddog:


Access denied. You must be someone special.

2 months later
#1880 1 year ago
Quoted from jorant:

So in other words the pro is still the best version?


#1902 1 year ago
Quoted from Spiderpin:

I had the worst time downloading code update today. Maybe tried 9 time and on two different computers. Then three time to install it.

Ohhhh, so it was YOU that I was fighting with for their server bandwidth. I tried somewhere between 8-10 times today to download the code and each time it made it 5% further. The last time when it froze up, I paused the download, then restarted and that seemed to open the bandwidth door for some odd reason. It took two attempts to install it. Stern needs to use a better method for downloading code when they put out a new release.

#1943 1 year ago
Quoted from Eskaybee:

I wish stern could get a better update system. Never had an issue with IMDN (it’s less than 2gb), but both SW and now AS just don’t like updating. Seems like any of their code that has more than one file is pissy as shit.
Game is frozen at 466/2914mb. Whatcha think, power cycle and try again?
[quoted image]

Full update with verify worked for me on the second attempt.

#1944 1 year ago
Quoted from Ramjet:

I've downloaded it probably 25 times, same result.
Can any kind sole send me the three files?
E-mail to RogerPJ@Zoho.com

What worked for me on about try #20 was when the download froze with Edge, I pressed pause, waited about 3 seconds, then resume and it finished.

#1985 1 year ago
Quoted from Shredso:

I beat Final Tour! The third time I got to it I had my son watching the LCD. I needed a coach!
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Too easy then. Start to change the settings to be harder. I set crank it up back to needing 1 shot before it lights. Too many free bees by default. I feel that the player still needs to earn the CIU by making 1 shot. Great shooting and great score though - way better than I could do.

#2047 1 year ago
Quoted from PW79:

The software monitors every Toybox miss & makes incremental changes to the coil power until finding its best setting.
I think you're better off defaulting the coil settings & then playing a few dozen games.
Unless you've already done that.

I heard that also. But every time I turn on the pin it seems to take 5 to 10 games to tweak itself in. Wish it could save it's dialed in setting, or show what it is so that we can change the startup default to that.

1 month later
#2118 11 months ago

I finally got around to installing the Pinball Life shaker that I picked up at their Expo side party for my AS. I wasn't expecting much as people have said that it is hardly used. The default setting of it being highly integrated makes it go off where/when I would expect it to, so that is better than people led me to believe. I don't care for super intense levels for the shakers on some pins, but even with that said, it seemed a notch or two weak. Maybe the Pinball Life shaker is a little weaker or I have to find the shaker intensity setting. Is it a "game changer" must have mod? Not really. It is good that now there is a little shake during the jacky toybox shaking as the intro to a toybox multiball - probably the best use moment for the shaker in this game. If this pin is going to be a long time keeper for you and you like shakers, don't let the other guys steer you away from it, but wait to get one on sale - maybe a black Friday sale somewhere. Just my opinion.

1 week later
#2137 11 months ago
Quoted from cscmtp:

Is it true a lot of owners are having issue with node board with this pin?

Make sure that the pin has had the two Stern service bulletins applied to it to add the capacitors and you would be less likely to have the node board issues.

1 month later
#2252 9 months ago
Quoted from judremy:

I don't own an Aerosmith, but like the game and was telling someone about the "secret entrance" to the lock shot. Does anyone have a picture of what this area looks like or a picture without the plastics and ramp in place to see where exactly the entrance is? Thank you in advance!

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#2254 9 months ago
Quoted from judremy:

kingbw What is just to the right of it? Is there a ball guide there? Trying to see how big the opening is to figure out how far a plunge needs to be to get in there. Seems you can go past it a tad and it may still drop in?
Also, what does that switch do? Does it register as a skill shot?
... And Thank You!

Yes, there is a ball guide to the right. The ball can roll from about center of the playfield backwards to that opening. The switch does register a skill shot with the updates in the last couple of code releases.

#2256 9 months ago
Quoted from judremy:

Do you happen to have a shot that shows what it looks like? If not, thanks for the help so far. If you do, thanks again.

No, I don't have a photo of the far right, but you have to make it up to/past that peak to get in there.

#2262 9 months ago
Quoted from Spiderpin:

On my game if the ball rolls more than half way past the Elevator, when it comes rolling back down it will miss the "secret entrance" to the skill shot.
Rolling to fast to drop in "secret entrance".

Here's a pic of a premium under upper playfield more towards the top of the arc. The ball pretty much needs to "ride the inboard rail" back to the hidden entrance. If there's enough inertia to hug the outer rail, then it will miss the entrance.

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2 weeks later
#2278 9 months ago
Quoted from Meegis:

So for those saying a shaker doesn't add much, is it a general thing or just for the general game play.
For example, I have a shaker in my Tron. Most people say tron isn't a great shaker game, but I find it's fine if you can progress through the game and achieve more modes.
Seeing that Tron can be a brutally hard game, maybe this is why a lot of people said shaker implementation wasn't great.
Anybody able to chime in on Aerosmith moreso as you progress?

I have a shaker on my AS premium and it shakes at all of the times that I would think it to be appropriate - when the toy box shakes, elevator multiball intro, VIP ball save launch, a few other times I can't think of currently. I like what it adds to the game.

#2295 9 months ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

Time to upgrade the 4" speakers in the backbox. Decided to keep the short speaker screws in place and at the same time make an offset plate with the 3D printer since the tweeter sticks out a bit. Still tweaking everything, so haven't installed yet.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

FYI - Doug at speakerlightkits.com has a metal replacement speaker panel that he sells that allows for the tweeter to stick through the panel (no grid in the speaker hole) that also centers the speaker in the grill to make it look better if you add a speaker light kit. I have them installed and they work great. Email him at support@speakerlightkits.com to get them. I don't know if he has those up on his site yet, but it solved the problem for me (for another option). I used the Flipper Fidelity Speakers with Doug's light kit.

1 week later
#2300 9 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

So what do you guys think about the newest code update now that you have had some play time on it? I am almost thinking that they have made it a little too difficult to reach Medley Tour Multiball now. Its seemed to me that the difficulty was perfect before but not so much now. This game has been kicking my ass since the latest code update and i think its going to be very difficult to get to Medley Tour Multiball now.

I just updated last weekend. I go for songs in different orders now trying to figure out a good approach. Most of the time I do a lot worse than before. I did get about 90% of my old Grand Champ score on one game, but for the most part I shoot much lower scores. A lot harder to progress through the game. Wife isn't as happy with the changes. It is going to be a lot harder to get to medley for us also. Maybe the tournament type people were saying it was too easy. I was reluctant to update … but want to stay current on the code. Not much talk about it is saying something. However … the songs are more balanced at the cost of some of the fun factor for us mediocre players. Probably justified overall in the end. Need to "play better" I guess - but don't tell my wife that.

#2314 8 months ago
Quoted from PW79:

Good point.
Can each mode have its required shots reduced in the software settings?
Basically, I'm too lazy to get up haha

No, but you can reduce the amount of time for each song to time out, giving you a chance to start the next song more quickly. That makes medley harder to complete then, but it makes getting to it easier than default. I will leave the time on default for now. We're playing AS less now though, and playing others more.

#2316 8 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

Is the timers for the songs longer now and thats why it seems different? I know that the modes no longer end when you get close if you drain your ball like they used to. Getting to Medley Tour Multiball seemed like it was the perfect difficulty before. Its like you would always be close to getting it but almost always fall short. Now its like I usually only finish with two or three songs lit seems like and im never even close to Medley Tour Multiball.

The 3 songs would auto complete at end of ball if you got 1 shot and crank it up. Not sure on a longer timer, but it does seem like it. Maybe just because the auto complete isn't there anymore. That makes Rats a lot harder and longer. They might be about 10 seconds longer ... not sure

#2328 8 months ago
Quoted from DaveH:

I’ve had access to one for a while at a friends house, and he sold it. Last week when I was hanging out there, I missed it. So poof. I’m definitely in too many of these “clubs” right now
So what’s the consensus. Update to the latest code? Or just stick. Right now I feel the game is just a fun romp, and I wanted to be sure the newer code felt the same.

In settings on the old code that you have, what are the song durations (time out) set at on default? 20 seconds, 30 seconds? A page or so of comments are inquiring ...

1 month later
#2397 7 months ago
Quoted from monte_:

I just got a new in box Aerosmith Pro. It has been fun, but there are a couple times where I have been playing where all of the sudden the play field goes dead, the screen freezes and nothing happens. I have to turn off the machine and turn it back on. Anybody have any ideas? Mine was made 2/2018. It happened on version 1.03 and then I updated today to 1.07 and it happened again. Thanks for the help.

Look up the Stern Service Bulletins on AS and take a look to see if the fixes have been made. If not, order them. It's a necessity and what you described are the symptoms.

1 month later
#2454 6 months ago

Has anyone else had issues with the plunger lane rail side cliffy sliding around? I emailed Cliff to ask for advice. He has new designs now for wood and metal rails. The one for metal rails extends up to the next scew hole. A big improvement. The one for wood has a small sharp spike that will dig into the wood a bit to hold the top half in place better. I recommend the new version.

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#2475 6 months ago
Quoted from Who-Dey:

I finally got to the final tour and beat it. Man what a great feeling that was and what a great game this is. I don't think my score was anything spectacular but at least i got to see all of the modes. Game seemed like it lasted forever lol.
[quoted image]

Did you decrease the song lengths in settings, or keep them default?

#2481 6 months ago

Have you applied the service bulletins for the node boards? (Wild guess)

#2483 6 months ago
Quoted from JOESCHALL:

I appreciate the reply very much, but I'm not quite sure what it means, in that I am not aware of any service bulletins for the node boards. I have checked all node board cabling and connections and they are secure, and in test mode there are no node board errors.


See the link on those pages for the service bulletin - check to see if those capacitors are installed. If not, order them and do it anyway. Might not be the problem, but could be a future problem without them.


1 month later
#2496 5 months ago
Quoted from Dang3rousDave:

Appreciate you reaching out, and thanks for the warm welcome! I was never expecting studio quality, but since it is running a linux based system I expected the same baseline quality that one might find in a cellular phone or the like, On the same thought, these now have HDMI out so that might be an interesting work around. Has anyone used this for an additional display? I assume it mirrors the LCD Backboard display. I guess I can only hope an Audiophile might stumble across this post...
Thanks again for the Welcome!

This might be the best that you can do:


#2505 4 months ago
Quoted from scottslash:

Used, but from a friend who bought her NIB. Perhaps he removed the post? (Gonna ask him -- only out of curiosity.) No big deal. It was just funny b/c I'm looking at the rubber chart and... huh?!?
Currently getting a parts order together. Putting off the order as long as I can b/c you KNOW as soon as I hit the "SUBMIT ORDER" button, I'll think of something else!

Some people removed that post so that the ball could pass through in either direction for a little variety. I left it in.

2 months later
#2562 81 days ago
Quoted from Happy81724:

Is there any decals to put over the magnet? Similar to the sewer on BM66

I saw one on EBAY. If I find it again I will post the link.

3 weeks later
#2606 55 days ago

The "wow" factor of the ball launch into the Toy box wears off … but it's "fun" to play. Yes, there are some shot and game longevity challenges to keep it going to reach the final mode (never got there yet). However … that lack of walking away with at least a partial "wow" drags it down a bit. Walking away with a smile from it still exists. I still love it and there's a few other pins that would leave my collection first. Newbie friends and family love it because it isn't hard to figure out and it's "fun". I like it to just play it as a changeup to some of the deep rule intensive games that I have - a balance. Some people have the "been there, done that" attitude towards games and just keep moving on to the latest and greatest. I get that, but I will be hanging on to the games that are fun over the frustrating ones. If I could only have 1 or 2 pins, I could see the attitude of moving on from it. For now, it's still a keeper.

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