Wentzville, MO
Man Stern should do a new X-Files pin based on the new & old series.
Put in an LCD with Scully's bra scene from the reboot episode... mmmmm nom nom nom
(Topic ID: 194863)
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Aerosmith (LE)
Stern, 2017-
Aerosmith (Premium)
Stern, 2017
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Aerosmith (Pro)
Stern, 2017
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Ghosting is a completely normal and acceptable occurrence. Please delete this thread as Ghosting is the industry norm according to Stern Pinball Inc. Just ask your local GB owners. 
Quoted from PW79:Man Stern should do a new X-Files pin based on the new & old series.
Put in an LCD with Scully's bra scene from the reboot episode... mmmmm nom nom nom
There you go PW. Nobody would ever notice any ghosting with that game and if they did they wouldn't even care anyway! 
Quoted from PW79:Hopefully I just eat bacon, play pinball & enjoy life
Hell yeah!
Quoted from CaryCarmichael:Just a quick note...
My games are in the Warehouse next to my office, so I just walked past them all to investigate a bit further (I asked someone to snap photos for me last week when I was out of town). Every Sega/Stern playfield I have has at least one ghosted insert, with 2 exceptions. GZA, HD, POTC, SM, IJ4, BDK, ST, GOT and AS all have at least 1 ghosted insert. Tron and BBH do not have any ghosted inserts.
I was a bit taken aback when I reviewed my photos from AS. It does appear to me that the Sweet Emotion insert IS chipping on the left side where it is ghosting. I'll pull the glass before League tonight to feel what my eyes are seeing.
Uh. Well. Grrr.
That sure is a lot of games from a wide span of years ghosting. Is your warehouse climate controlled?
Quoted from Who-Dey:That sure is a lot of games from a wide span of years ghosting. Is your warehouse climate controlled?
Of the Sterns I listed with ghosting it is a bit of a mixed bag before landing in our warehouse.
HD and GZA had harder lives before coming to us. Also funny, less ghosting, we could moreover call the insert issues with these 'lifting', for the few issues present - maybe they were ghosted at one point, but these are nearly 20 year old games.
BBH has no issues, only been around our warehouse about a year.
3 had a harder life. POTC, SM and IJ4 lived in a house by a lake with temperature swings from 50-90. Yet POTC and IJ4 have really slight ghosting on very few inserts, where SM has had noticeable ghosting on multiple inserts.
BDK lived in a garage in Salinas, probably had similar swings as the others near the lake, just less prolonged time spent in the extremes. Light, light ghosting on only a couple.
Tron, ST, AS, and GOT have lived most every inch of their lives in our warehouse.
The warehouse is actually a finished office, insulated, and climate controlled. Even though it is climate controlled, we give it a rather wide berth of between 55 and 75 degrees. Salinas is pretty temperate anyway, at probably an average of 65 degrees year round.
From what I can tell, after taking a step back to review these games' issues - after staring at the playfield from 1 inch away - ghosting is a rather normal occurrence. Also, it is a pinball machine - there is a bloody steel ball banging around in there. Shit's gonna happen. It just seems less shit may be required to yield ghosted inserts. Or random manufacturing quality with varied real world results. Whichever, whatever.
I think folks may worry too much about their games' resale value, and thusly want to both play their game, but have it sell for museum quality at the end of its stay. I mentioned that the cost/risk/value equation is becoming difficult for me. That's my choice to spend or to not spend.
This is ultimately what ghosted inserts look like from my vantage:
Well, since I just picked up ASLE #212 from a friendly pinsider in Albuquerque this past weekend, I just voted 'no, no ghosting' on my example. The game was like new, and still in need of a few small tweaks to get it dialed in, but the build quality was just fine. I now have a good reason to dig out the 12" powered external sub that's been in a box since we moved three years ago. Woot.
Quoted from PW79:My Aerosmith arrives tomorrow
Fingers crossed
Please let us know how everything turns out!
It is an awesome game.
Quoted from PW79:My Aerosmith arrives tomorrow
Fingers crossed
It's going to go just like this. You're going to set the game up and look at it and be in disbelief how beautiful the playfield looks....artwork and clear coat both. Then you're going to play it and say....I like it, pretty fun game. Somewhere around game 50 you're going to be addicted to it like crack and be very happy about your decision to buy AS!
Wait and see, guarantee you I am right!
Quoted from CaryCarmichael:Well, no photo with my face or a date - sorry!
At the point I threw down on a NIB AS I was not happy whilst considering the cost, risk and value of buying new from Stern. They are really trying to reach a pain point for me, where the value doesn't outpace the cost and risk.
That said - these are Not investments for me. I am fine assuming an amount of loss upfront on my purchases, new or used, really. I buy games for myself and others to enjoy.
Yeah, my resale will take a greater hit than I would prefer with ghosting or other manufacturer-related quality issues. Likely why you haven't seen anyone post photos beyond their anonymous poll vote (or they're shills/haters, gabba-gabba-Pinside).
I am pretty sure that it will take a Great amount of time and play for this ghosting to begin chipping around the inserts.
My GOT has had ghosting since I purchased it second hand at 500 plays. I didn't notice it at first. I was pretty bummed when I realized it. We have enjoyed it, and it plays like a pinball machine, so I calmed down pretty quickly.
Hell, my SM .. from 2007 .. is heavily ghosted. Game plays, and has played, great since it came out of the box. The ghosting has not yet turned to chipping.
I certainly believe something has changed, and it has not been a smooth transition - that is if they are even trying to produce a quality clear. It is not good for the consumer at large. I will personally have to put a bit more thought into future Stern purchases - although I will likely pop for another in the next year. That'll be when the needle in my arm starts to dry up.
Honestly, while I speak of buying games to enjoy, and which feed the beast, I am relatively positive that my next NIB will be TNA.
Are your games stored outside in a garage or in the house?
Quoted from smassa:Are your games stored outside in a garage or in the house?
Or are the windows open all the time? Could be some salty air.
Not outside. Not a garage. No salty air (office is inland from Seaside, where I live) and doors are definitely closed 99% of the time. Explanation of their locations, and general climate, are described just above your posts.
I may not have been specific, but any hairline, tiny amount of ghosting on an insert was counted in my review of each game. I'm talking minute. I had literally thought SM, GOT and AS were the only ones until I put my nose on the playfield glass of all of my games.
Also! Those photos from 1 inch off the playfield make it look awful. Which, really, none of it is awful. Hell most of them went completely unnoticed for *Years*.
I'll meter my comments on 'ghosting' and snap some photos of what I found on the other games when I get in this morning. This is really minor shit, and it makes me wonder how many folks just haven't noticed that it does exist, even if very slight, on their games.
Quoted from zr11990:I would say that all that is acceptable and I am just looking for a reason to bitch about a stern game because I despise them.
I know my reason..
Quoted from zr11990:I would say that all that is acceptable and I am just looking for a reason to bitch about a stern game because I despise them.
Real question time, now. Do you consider my AS to be acceptable?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/aerosmith-ghosting/page/3#post-3904195
Quoted from CaryCarmichael:Real question time, now. Do you consider my AS to be acceptable?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/aerosmith-ghosting/page/3#post-3904195
zr11990
Looks like you have played the shit out of that game and rightly so. Its a fun game. I would not be happy about it but I doubt stern will give you a new PF. I could deal with it if it got no worse. I always buy a PF for all my games because I a just that anal but with stern you don know if a new PF is going to be better or worse than the original. I just cant deal with all the IFs or MAYBEs with them then when you add the exorbitant cost... ummm no.
More examples of other games - blue inserts on STTNG and I'm sure there are plenty more, but I'm not digging through 1000's of pics just to prove a point.
Quoted from CaryCarmichael:Here y'all go.
Jesus. You guys are picky.
Quoted from zr11990:I would say that all that is acceptable and I am just looking for a reason to bitch about a stern game because I despise them.
Yeah, the more I think about some of this the more I can see Stern's point about it being normal(ish). I don't like the new ghosting happening so quick, but I think it can and will happen over time. It may be that the more modern thicker clear coats simply don't crack easily so a gap forms if there is any movement of the insert compared to the wood. It's just way more visible (compared to a hairline crack) so it is now a bigger issue. However, that doesn't explain why Stern seems to have the worse problem (maybe they just sell way more so they get into more environments).
The wood and the plastic inserts are always going to have some movement at their edge. The wood expands and contracts, the insert will not. I guess if the hole was just perfect then the wood expanding and contracting could possibly not move on the edge of the insert, but I would guess that's an impossibility at the microscopic level.
Me, I'm just going to play my games. They look great still, but are in my livingroom or converted garage at a pretty constant humidity and temperature. I keep the house at 75F and the dehumidifier keeps it under 55%RH. Makes me wonder if the temp changes/humidity changes are affecting the new games more... I haven't seen any ghosting of my new games including GB and AS.
Quoted from capguntrooper:one of my friends customers had little specs of dust on his pin that was cleared over
Quoted from capguntrooper:I think this is worse than a ghosting
Toronto, ON
While it definitely does appear to be a "defect", I looked at the same inserts on my AS the other day, and they're tiny!
So to notice a flaw that small, you literally have to take a photo and magnify it.
My opinion, anyway.
Quoted from DennisDodel:Jesus. You guys are picky.
Quite the opposite. I'm not worried or offended - in fact I had never noticed most of these until I put my nose on the glass, like I had done with AS.
This was more a follow up and general comment that (and to quote @SilverballNut) ghosting is normal(ish).
I'm even 'ok' with AS. It happened quickly, and it is on many inserts. At NIB pricing, it may affect my decision to buy new, as I will likely take a bit of a hit on resale.
That is all.
Have fun tonight @pw79!! It'll be gaming night at Monterey Flipper Pinball. Cheers from across the States!
Quoted from zr11990:Looks like you have played the shit out of that game and rightly so. Its a fun game. I would not be happy about it but I doubt stern will give you a new PF. I could deal with it if it got no worse. I always buy a PF for all my games because I a just that anal but with stern you don know if a new PF is going to be better or worse than the original. I just cant deal with all the IFs or MAYBEs with them then when you add the exorbitant cost... ummm no.
1299 games played
2:02 average game time
Received and set up on 6/16/2017. Our games are Not set up easy 
Munich
Quoted from WeirPinball:More examples of other games - blue inserts on STTNG and I'm sure there are plenty more, but I'm not digging through 1000's of pics just to prove a point.
Not arguing against your point in general, but using CV & TOTAN as an example doesn't help proving the point. Those JPop games have been well known for decades as THE prominent example on notorious ghosting and how bad PF manufacturing failures can actually get. And a run down, beat up 25 year old Indy is also not a very good example when talking about brand new games with ghosting inserts.
Regarding the AS this is referring to - i think it's borderline for a new pin. The other games in the range of 10 years old I would regard as a non-issue and "normal" aging (for a routed game!).
All this said, just for the fun of it I've checked all my pins. I left out CV for obvious reasons and because it has been restored, so it would be unfair to include it. The only "problems" I've found is some very slight ghosting on STTNG. For the lower STNNG insert I'm not sure if it's not abrasion looking at the position of the insert. I also have massive crazing on BK2000 - but even then there is no ghosting at all. Out of 7 pins, all older than 2004, this is all I could find.
Basically every time someone posts sample pics of B/W pins with ghosting they use run down beaten up examples. Look for some HUO ones that haven't been routed and/or exposed to ever changing climate, they usually do not have ghosting!
IMG_2406 (resized).JPG
IMG_2402 (resized).JPG
IMG_2404 (resized).JPG
I agree - in a new game it isn't something you want, but you can't exclude CV and TOTAN because that is exactly what happened then. Either don't take a risk buying a NIB, buy a used one you look over first, or pass. Even new pf manufacturers have minor defects such as mirco's initial clear jobs and CPRs insert problems (which seem to be fixed)
Great looking games! I can hardly wait until our STTNG is stood back up - it should be Soon!
I can hardly wait to play tonight. I have to wait, but I don't want to wait.
Quoted from someoneelse:Not arguing against your point in general, but using CV & TOTAN as an example doesn't help proving the point. Those JPop games have been well known for decades as THE prominent example on notorious ghosting and how bad PF manufacturing failures can actually get. And a run down, beat up 25 year old Indy is also not a very good example when talking about brand new games with ghosting inserts.
Regarding the AS this is referring to - i think it's borderline for a new pin. The other games in the range of 10 years old I would regard as a non-issue and "normal" aging (for a routed game!).
All this said, just for the fun of it I've checked all my pins. I left out CV for obvious reasons and because it has been restored, so it would be unfair to include it. The only "problems" I've found is some very slight ghosting on STTNG. For the lower STNNG insert I'm not sure if it's not abrasion looking at the position of the insert. I also have massive crazing on BK2000 - but even then there is no ghosting at all. Out of 7 pins, all older than 2004, this is all I could find.
Basically every time someone posts sample pics of B/W pins with ghosting they use run down beaten up examples. Look for some HUO ones that haven't been routed and/or exposed to ever changing climate, they usually do not have ghosting!
If you look at your inserts on STTNG though they are all cracked all the way around. That's what I've been noticing on the older pins, the inserts crack the clear and then start wearing. The new pins, the inserts don't crack the clear but rather separate from the clear somewhat along the edge and you see the ghosting. Your BK2000 also has some cracking around the edges of the inserts and that crazing is wild.
Again some is normal, but not sure where the line of excessive comes in. Obviously new playfields with cracking/chipping clear after 50-100 games is a big problem, ghosting sucks too but we may just be stuck with this going forward. I've seen many CPR playfields and restored playfields with cracking around the inserts too. Especially on the older bally/stern games where the playfield isn't supported well when you raise it. That rotational force will crack the clearcoat.
Quoted from merccat:pw79 ... delivery is today right? How's it look?
No game yet. There's still 2 hours of my delivery window remaining (2-6 CST) tho.
According to tracking info I'm stop #10 so odds are I'm the last delivery of the day.
The suspense is killing me.
Quoted from PW79:No game yet. There's still 2 hours of my delivery window remaining (2-6 CST) tho.
According to tracking info I'm stop #10 so odds are I'm the last delivery of the day.
The suspense is killing me.
It was that way last Friday for my AFMr LE, it was on the truck bouncing all around Denver and I was the last stop. I was on pins and needles all day, but it was a heck of a weekend! Great game!
Quoted from PW79:No game yet. There's still 2 hours of my delivery window remaining (2-6 CST) tho.
According to tracking info I'm stop #10 so odds are I'm the last delivery of the day.
The suspense is killing me.
Have you got it yet? Have you got it yet! Post some photos!
Its here.
Power supply is super loud. Shit. Too loud to stay on in my theater. I need to hear someone elses game to see/hear if thats normal. If it is normal its shitty.
No ghosting but they did clear over a small debris/particle which sucks but I can live with it. PF looks "ribbed" too. I didnt look too closely with a critical eye & I might not ever since life is short (but I dont want a pile of shit for a game either). My TSPP PF has a similar ribbed appearance but its not as pronounced.
It does have some weird splitting or separating between the plys of the cabinet plywood. Not the cabinet joints but the actual sheet of plywood. Its only a few inches, might be a non issue, will investigate more tomorrow.
Tonight I need to eat some grub (todays wait took a lot out of me ha ha) & play the shit out of it. Looks like I have a half dozen Golden Tee wager invites that will be ignored until tomorrow.
Quoted from PW79:Its here.
Power supply is super loud. Shit. Too loud to stay on in my theater. I need to hear someone elses game to see/hear if thats normal. If it is normal its shitty.
No ghosting but they did clear over a small debris/particle which sucks but I can live with it. PF looks "ribbed" too. I didnt look too closely with a critical eye & I might not ever since life is short (but I dont want a pile of shit for a game either). My TSPP PF has a similar ribbed appearance but its not as pronounced.
It does have some weird splitting or separating between the plys of the cabinet plywood. Not the cabinet joints but the actual sheet of plywood. Its only a few inches, might be a non issue, will investigate more tomorrow.
Tonight I need to eat some grub (todays wait took a lot out of me ha ha) & play the shit out of it. Looks like I have a half dozen Golden Tee wager invites that will be ignored for a few days lol.
Woo Hoo! Woo Hoo!
Quoted from PW79:Power supply is super loud.
clear over a small debris/particle.
PF looks "ribbed".
some weird splitting or separating between the plus of the cabinet plywood.
UUUUUUUUUUUH...... I think people with ghosting inserts made out better than you dude. As far as the power supply goes that can be fixed with an additional fan mod, all the other stuff ya got going on seems pretty extreme. Best not be the little frog basking in your jacuzzi when the problems get worse and the heat gets cranked up. Show us some pictures after you pop her cherry.
Quoted from PW79:Its here.
Power supply is super loud. Shit. Too loud to stay on in my theater. I need to hear someone elses game to see/hear if thats normal. If it is normal its shitty.
No ghosting but they did clear over a small debris/particle which sucks but I can live with it. PF looks "ribbed" too. I didnt look too closely with a critical eye & I might not ever since life is short (but I dont want a pile of shit for a game either). My TSPP PF has a similar ribbed appearance but its not as pronounced.
It does have some weird splitting or separating between the plys of the cabinet plywood. Not the cabinet joints but the actual sheet of plywood. Its only a few inches, might be a non issue, will investigate more tomorrow.
Tonight I need to eat some grub (todays wait took a lot out of me ha ha) & play the shit out of it. Looks like I have a half dozen Golden Tee wager invites that will be ignored until tomorrow.
I assume you are talking about the fan in the power supply. If so, yes it is very loud when it is running. I don't like it but at the same time it doesn't bother me either. Would like to see the pics of the other issues that you are talking about.
Quoted from PW79:Anyone want to be a gentleman & post a link for the fan mod?
Hey PW I would post it but I gotta hurry and get ready for work. I know there's a YouTube video about. Try and find it on there.
Spike power supply fans are noisy in general. In a normal game-room environment or while you are playing it, you won't notice it. When not in a game and the area is silent, the fan cycling on and off is somewhat annoying... After a while, I don't even hear it anymore.
Quoted from capguntrooper:UUUUUUUUUUUH...... I think people with ghosting inserts made out better than you dude. As far as the power supply goes that can be fixed with an additional fan mod, all the other stuff ya got going on seems pretty extreme. Best not be the little frog basking in your jacuzzi when the problems get worse and the heat gets cranked up. Show us some pictures after you pop her cherry.
Word, I will post pics for sure. Likley tomorrow.
Quoted from Schwaggs:Spike power supply fans are noisy in general. In a normal game-room environment or while you are playing it, you won't notice it. When not in a game and the area is silent, the fan cycling on and off is somewhat annoying... After a while, I don't even hear it anymore.
I always hear them and they are annoying. Give me my transformer back!
I should clarify some things.
The clearcoat on my Aerosmith is very glassy, beautiful & free of ghosting/chipping.... for now?
The "ribbing" is the wood grain? I can see it, not as well however, on most of my games except our dimpled to shit TWD. No surprise there lol. What are your thoughts on this
That grain topic has been mentioned before. In fact another AS owner mentioned the exact same situation but I'm unable to locate his post. Is this normal? No one seemed to shit their pants over it.
There are 2-3 debris under the clear. None @ the inserts I can see as of now. My TSPP has a larger speck under the clear but for the life of me I cant find it now. Hopefully I can/will say the same about AS.
The fan, lawdy its loud. Very shitty for residential use. I will mos def do something about it.
The cabinet... that is my priority above all. I will have to really examine wtf is going on there for sure. Like tomorrow.
Quoted from PW79:Anyone want to be a gentleman & post a link for the fan mod?
Here's a video, looks to be a cheap and easy mod (it's for a Euro GB so confirm the power supply is the same before you start ordering stuff though):
There's also some older discussion here with various solutions discussed:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-spike-cooling-mod-for-kiss-wwe
Quoted from PW79:I should clarify some things.
The clearcoat on my Aerosmith is very glassy, beautiful & free of ghosting/chipping.... for now?
The "ribbing" is the wood grain? I can see it, not as well however, on most of my games except our dimpled to shit TWD. No surprise there lol. What are your thoughts on this
That grain topic has been mentioned before. In fact another AS owner mentioned the exact same situation but I'm unable to locate his post. Is this normal? No one seemed to shit their pants over it.
There are 2-3 debris under the clear. None @ the inserts I can see as of now. My TSPP has a larger speck under the clear but for the life of me I cant find it now. Hopefully I can/will say the same about AS.
The fan, lawdy its loud. Very shitty for residential use. I will mos def do something about it.
The cabinet... that is my priority above all. I will have to really examine wtf is going on there for sure. Like tomorrow.
PW here is my opinion. I don't think that you have a damn thing to worry about. Enjoy your new and gorgeous game buddy. The fan is annoying I will give you that but it doesn't bother me or anything, I just wish they would have put a quieter fan in it. If you have any concerns I would contact your distributor and maybe Stern if that is necessary just to have it on record in case it does get bad or something. I seriously doubt though if anything that you mentioned is going to cause your playfield to fall apart.
On a positive not, how do you like it so far?
I too have a dust spec in my clear...I figure edventually an airball with knock the snot out of it and put a dimple in its place.
Yeah, I hear ya on the fan...I thought WOZ was loud but Spike is easily double the fan noise when that thing spins up.
But my games are basically only on when being played and you never notice it then so it's tolerable considering.
Quoted from merccat:I too have a dust spec in my clear...I figure edventually an airball with knock the snot out of it and put a dimple in its place.
Yeah, I hear ya on the fan...I thought WOZ was loud but Spike is easily double the fan noise when that thing spins up.
But my games are basically only on when being played and you never notice it then so it's tolerable considering.
I would say you are correct about the dust spec. These playfields are made out of balsa wood now you know so I'd say that a nice air ball should land on top of it and drive it right through the playfield and it will fall into the cabinet.
Quoted from PW79:The game is F'n beautiful. So pretty I might sleep next to it tonight. It really is a work of art. Kudos to all @ Stern.
It does need some polish tho. No doubt.
For sure, it's possibly the best looking artwork in pinball history.
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