(Topic ID: 211948)

Advance unit disk williams starpool

By Lambecka

4 years ago


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  • 25 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Lambecka
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 4 years ago

Williams star pool. When the ball leaves game the advance unit disk steps,down to,add the scored points.
As soon as it ends on zero it contacts the switch for,kicking out the ball for next game or ball.
When the switch hits the one for energizing the kick out coil the unit starts to step up two times, so spinners unit keeps running and ball stays in the hole not ending the game.
Also when starting a new game points are given even before shooting the ball, the spinner rel starts running given point.

Please assist

#2 4 years ago

Did some measurements and checking, but when strating new game , the advances unit goes to zero and the outhole relais is energized , but not powerfull enough to load the kicker, so ball stays in the hole, and spinner relais given 50 points
As soon the credit button is pusheb , point are given

#3 4 years ago

Well, this is fun; the schematic is all chopped up, but you can find it and the manual here: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2352/Williams_1974_Star_Pool_Maunal_Supplement_Schematic_Diagrams.pdf

Check the NO sw. 'D' (last one away from coil) on the Lock relay, the Game Over relay, and the wiper finger on the Ball Count unit for cleanliness and contact.

#4 4 years ago

Hi Lambecka
I refer to https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-star-pool-ball-count-advances-to-end-game#post-3894140 --- make an "righthandside mouseclick on the schematics / PDF - then choose "save target as" - make Yourself an copy on Your computer - and You can look at it.
Of course - what I wrote in the last paragraph in the pinside-post is still valid. Greetings Rolf

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Lambecka
I refer to https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-star-pool-ball-count-advances-to-end-game#post-3894140 --- make an "righthandside mouseclick on the schematics / PDF - then choose "save target as" - make Yourself an copy on Your computer - and You can look at it.
Of course - what I wrote in the last paragraph in the pinside-post is still valid. Greetings Rolf

Rolf,
I have already complete scheme of this machine,
Main problem is that the ball does not shout out in the lane, if help with hand the outhole relais the ball shoots out easily.
Same occurs with the coin relais, it retracks , but does not stays long enough to move to player 2 etc.
The both energized but only a second , not long enough.
I think by solving this problem the other will be solved as well

#6 4 years ago

The reset cycle/start up is on p. 2 of the manual.

#7 4 years ago

Hi Lambecka
good - You have an paper schematics. Lets look at the problem "starting a new game - the ball should be kicked out" --- read this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-star-pool-ball-count-advances-to-end-game#post-3904121 . In Your post-2 You mention "Outhole-Relay pulls in (((but does not stay pulling for a while))) --- so the "my encircled LEMON GREEN" Self-Hold-Circuitry does not work. The ipdb-manual on page-23 (ori-21) shows on Outhole-Relay: Bottom-most switch - Switch "A" is the Self-Hold-Switch - check this switch. The schematics says "three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch Motor-5B" is to check. The schematics tells us: Real motor - then INDEX-Cam - then cam-1 - then cam-2 - then cam-2-long-dwell - then cam-3 - then cam-4 - then cam-5 --- the two topmost-blades to inspect. Greetings Rolf

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Lambecka
good - You have an paper schematics. Lets look at the problem "starting a new game - the ball should be kicked out" --- read this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-star-pool-ball-count-advances-to-end-game#post-3904121 . In Your post-2 You mention "Outhole-Relay pulls in (((but does not stay pulling for a while))) --- so the "my encircled LEMON GREEN" Self-Hold-Circuitry does not work. The ipdb-manual on page-23 (ori-21) shows on Outhole-Relay: Bottom-most switch - Switch "A" is the Self-Hold-Switch - check this switch. The schematics says "three-bladed Make-and-Brake-Switch Motor-5B" is to check. The schematics tells us: Real motor - then INDEX-Cam - then cam-1 - then cam-2 - then cam-2-long-dwell - then cam-3 - then cam-4 - then cam-5 --- the two topmost-blades to inspect. Greetings Rolf

Rolf, yes topblade 5 was the problem, but did not solved all problems.
Situation as follow
Start up game, resets machine , but gives direct 50 points on player one, shoots ball out.
Push
Credit button for player two , and again 50 points on player ONE
Credit button for player three, and again 50 points on player ONE
Credit button on player four and again 50 points on player ONE

Start playing first ball for player one, everything works fine , but as soon loosing ball, machine starting giving points continues, and ball stay in the hole. End of the show, and need to,switch of machine to reset

#9 4 years ago

Hi Lambecka
good - some progress. Here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-star-pool-ball-count-advances-to-end-game#post-3904121 I wrote about the "not loved by me feature 'every ball given comes as ONE-Bonus given' " --- so when the very first ball is kicked over to the shooter alley: DOES the bonus-ladder on the playfield then shows "1 bonus" on the ladder ?

The mystery of "50 points given" maybe a friend helps - one of You makes the pin to start - the other one stares at the 50-Pint-Relay - does the 50-Point-Relay pull-in and stay pulling for a turn of 180 degrees of the motor (((this fault by now is an mystery to me))) ? Greetings Rolf

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Lambecka
good - some progress. Here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-star-pool-ball-count-advances-to-end-game#post-3904121 I wrote about the "not loved by me feature 'every ball given comes as ONE-Bonus given' " --- so when the very first ball is kicked over to the shooter alley: DOES the bonus-ladder on the playfield then shows "1 bonus" on the ladder ?
The mystery of "50 points given" maybe a friend helps - one of You makes the pin to start - the other one stares at the 50-Pint-Relay - does the 50-Point-Relay pull-in and stay pulling for a turn of 180 degrees of the motor (((this fault by now is an mystery to me))) ? Greetings Rolf

Rolf,
Yes the advance bonus is, given when starting the game.
During start up the spinner relais is given the unwanted points.

#11 4 years ago

Hi Lambecka
the following text I have written not knowing Your post-10. I will look at "Spinner-Relay" by tomorrow.
Hi Lambecka
when You look at the schematics at "A-15 / A-16" You see the drawing of the Score-Motor-INDEX-Cam - Switch "D" is an three-blades Switch --- the topmost two blades have the text "MOTOR RUN". Once the pins is started and the first ball is kicked-out to the shooter-alley - and the pin idles - sits there doing nothing - You take an wooden stick or You wear rubber gloves - YOU gently press downwards in the pin - gently press down the topmost-blade and then let go --- the motor should make a turn of 180 degrees, then stop. Within that turn of 180 degrees NOTHING else is allowed to happen --- question: Do You get faulty 50 points on the Score-Drums ?

It has been a busy day - I go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#12 4 years ago

Hi Lambecka
please do the test I mentioned in post-11 --- I am chasing the "starting for second player adds 50 points to Player-1-Score-Drums" --- starting for second player makes the motor to turn 180 degrees --- so what happens when You (the test) make the motor to turn 180 degrees ? Greetings Rolf

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Lambecka
please do the test I mentioned in post-11 --- I am chasing the "starting for second player adds 50 points to Player-1-Score-Drums" --- starting for second player makes the motor to turn 180 degrees --- so what happens when You (the test) make the motor to turn 180 degrees ? Greetings Rolf

Ralf
Did the test with score motor and it adds 50 points tomthe score reel 1 by energizing spinning relais
In addition tried to find out which switch on the score motor powers the spinning relais and adding the 50 points.
Took me some time but found that if i put a paper between switch C of the impulse from score motor and do the test again , the score motor makes 180 degree and nothing happens, no points given anymore.

??????????????
Headache

#14 4 years ago

Hi Lambecka
good - You studied the "pin and/or schematics (?)" and have found Score-Motor-Impulse-C (Switch).
A fact to Score-Motor-Switches: Whenever the motor turns for 180 degrees: ALL / EVERY Score-Motor-Switch(es) are actuated - ALWAYS / ON EVERY TURN. Whenever an specific feature needs the help of the motor (to make a turn (of 180 degrees)): The specific feature closes its specific-feature-switch to ALLOW current to pass - current that motor-switch(es) deliver. When another feature calls for help: The "another feature closes its 'another feature-switch' to allow current to pass".

See the JPG - along "my green lines" is the feeding /toc toc toc toc toc of the 10-Point-Relay: Score-Motor-IMPULSE-C does close five times in a motor-turn. I have encircled red the "feature-Switch" - the "Switch on the 50-Points-Relay to let the needed five pulses through".
Please do the test of post-11 again - make the motor to do a turn (of 180 degrees) - watch the 50-Points-Relay --- IF (if, if) the 50-Points-Relay DOES pull-in and stay pulling: We must look for "WHY DOES the 50-Points-Relay faulty pulls-in ?".
IF (if, if) the 50-Points-Relay does NOT pull-in: Please inspect the "encircled red" switch --- faulty closed when the relay is not pulling ? a drop of solder fallen at the solder-lugs on the switch-blades - making faulty connection ? - a doghair crap of wire fallen there making faulty connection ? Greetings Rolf

0Star-Pool-Work-05 (resized).jpg

#15 4 years ago

Rolf,
Did the test again and there was no any movement of the 50 pt relais. The spinner relais goes toc toc toc toc toc and add the points to score drum player one..
Checked again all the switches of the spinner relais and 50 pts relais and seems to be ok
So as soon as pushing the credit button, score motor strats and 50 points given to score reel 1 and ball kicks out in shoother lane.
Loosing the ball the machine keeps,running and the ball,stays in the hole.

#16 4 years ago

Hi Lambecka
I try to have the test as simple as possible - thats why I was / am asking "doing the test as described in post-11". When doing this test: NO FEATURE is calling for help of a turn of the Score-Motor --- NOTHING (besides the motor turning) is allowed to happen . When You start a game then "starting a game needs help of the Score-Motor --- some stuff then does happen".
I just want the motor to do a turn - thats all.

You already had said and in post-15 You say it again: The SPINNER-Relay does actuate.

See the JPG in post-14, just above the horizontal green line: See the "Switch on Advanced Spinner-Relay" with wire-color-grey-white and wire-color-red-black(third place used). Does the relay (faulty) pull-in ? IF (if, if) the Advanced-Spinner-Relay does NOT pull-in: Please inspect the "switch on the relay" --- faulty closed when the relay is not pulling ? a drop of solder fallen at the solder-lugs on the switch-blades - making faulty connection ? - a doghair crap of wire fallen there making faulty connection ? Greetings Rolf
P.S.: I would like to stick to this (first) fault - otherwise my posts get way to long.

#17 4 years ago

Rolf, you,r right lets stick to,this problem only.
Did the test again and its only the spinner relais actuates
Checked the advanced spinner relay switches and looks ok

#18 4 years ago

Hi Lambecka
I am running out of ideas - I repeat - DOES the Advance-Spinner-Relay (faulty) pull-in when You simply make the motor to do a turn ?
in the ipdb-manual http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2352/Williams_1974_Star_Pool_Maunal_Supplement_Schematic_Diagrams.pdf - on the bottom of page-27 (ori-25) - the switch B is in question - have a very good look at.
Maybe we (means You) must unsolder wire-red-black away from the switchblade - then do another test.
IF (if, if) the fault still shows up (Spinner Relay rhythmically pulling in): On other locations (we see in the schematics) You must unsolder another wire-red-black - another - another --- until the fault no longer shows up means the faulty wiring has been found.

(((If I must unsolder a wire away somewhere - BUT I do not have good access to the solder-lug: I am rude and take an old scissors and cut the wire about two inches means 5 cm away from the solder-lug --- later twist the cut ends and put some solder on to reconnect)))
Greetings Rolf

#19 4 years ago

Rolf,
Honderd percent sure the advance spinner relay does not pulling at al during the trip of the motor.
Only thing i noticed that by every second turn of the motor i see the advance rel pulling a second.

#20 4 years ago

Hi Lambecka
Advance-Relay pulling every second turn: not pleasing - another problem.

Lets think of a fully running pin having a "green-Lamp-Relay". This "green-Lamp-Relay" has an Normally-Open-Switch --- when the relay is pulling then the switch is closed and so the green lamp on the playfield is lit. When the relay is not pulling then the switch is open and the green lamp on the playfield is not lit.

But now we have an fault - the fault "green lamp is always lit". TWO ways / possibilities of "fault" - first way is: The relay faulty pulls - the switch therefore is entitled to be closed - the green lamp is lit. Second way: The relay is nice and does not pull - BUT the switch-blades are bent - making contact even when the switch should be open - or a drop of solder making faulty connection or a doghair of wire making faulty connection.

Back to the Advance-Spinner-Relay and switch - You say: 100% sure it is not "first way" - but how about "second way" - blades bent, solder-drop, doghair crap of wire ? Greetings Rolf

#21 4 years ago

Hi Lambecka
I am tired and frustrated (or frustrated and tired) - I go to sleep. Till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#22 4 years ago

Rolf
I disconnected the wire , red black from the advanced spinner disk see photo. It was a double wire
Did the test again and spinner rel not activated and no 50points given
.????

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#23 4 years ago

Examined the switches and the blades are clean and open. Had a closer look to this relais and all the solder points,
Nothing to see and all looked ok..
Measured with multimeter between the two solder points and there was connection aldo the blades were open.
As you can see on the photo rel is mounted on wooden piece, so only visual inspection from front side was possible.
Removed complete unit from wooden support and examined from back side and bingo!!!!!
There i found (as you mentioned many many ,many times, not a dog hair , but pc of solder just made the connection between the two point.
May i thank you for the lot of patience you have in solving this problem very much appreciated.
Its late i am tired, but not frustrated and the machine is up and running .
Best regards
Albert

#24 4 years ago

Hi Albert
great - You have found the fault.
(((I wonder how pilots and flight attendants can live a "normal" Life beeing all the times in different time zones. The switching to daylight saving times comes soon - I try to make it easyer to me --- four weeks in advance: Every week I get up 15 minutes earlyer. I am tired / uneasy all day long ...)))

I do have an meter but I usually do not use it because there are many wirings and we may get a "false reading" because we kind of measure "all the way around through the windings of the transformer". If its easy to do: Please measure again at the switch and tell me: Does Your meter by now shows NO CONNECTION ? I then can take "using a meter" into my "advising for troubleshooting".

Do You still have the problem: The first ball made some points and 2,3,4 bonus - You loose the ball --- ball lays in the Outhole and now the motor turns and turns and turns ? OR: Nothing happens ? Try: Then press the armature on "Bonus-Relay" - do You get action ? Greetings Rolf

#25 4 years ago

Rolf,
No problems anymore everything works fine and all problems solved by only removing very small pc solder.
The meter i used multimeter is not the right wording for it , see picture.
By using it on two points and press the red button, you can see if there is connection. Did it again and no connection found this time.
Rolf take some extra sleep in advance , you deserve it.
Best regards. Albert

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