(Topic ID: 117362)

Adding a powered sub- The right way?


By rcbrown316

4 years ago



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    #1 4 years ago

    I have recently bought a few powered subs and had what I thought to be good results but just connecting them to the leads on the cabinet speaker. I think this is adding them in parallel with the cabinet speaker but not sure. I am sharing each sub between two games. i had read that was ok but now i am wondering about the powered subs ability to isolate the two amps from each other. I am sharing one sub between whirlwind and spiderman 2007 and the other between judge dredd and the shadow. The cabinet speaker in dredd is making a significant popping sound which caused my concern.

    I would like to know for sure:
    1. I can really share one sub between two pins
    2. just connecting to the cabinet speaker that is still in circuit is ok
    3. is there some device that will just allow me to take the signal I need without compromising the stock setup?

    I am looking to add bass using an external sub, not replace any of the stock speakers or take them out of circuit. In some cases I believe the cabinet speaker is multi-range so replcing it with a sub with filter out some of the frequency range. I have read through a bunch of threads but I just want to keep it simple and safe. Here is the sub I am using:
    amazon.com link »

    #2 4 years ago

    Check with Markmon on this forum. He's done a lot of work with speaker upgrades.

    #3 4 years ago

    I happen to have my sub shared between a Judge Dredd and a Shadow as well, and I do not have any issues. I connected both through the cabinet speaker.

    #4 4 years ago

    Check out this thread from Pinnovators.
    A truly awesome product and you get a headphone jack to boot.
    It can run multiple pins on one sub safely too if that is what you are after.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wpc95-stern-whitestar-subwoofer-audio-adapters-fs

    #5 4 years ago

    So is wiring multiple pins to a sub from the cabinet speaker really a risk to the sound boards?

    #6 4 years ago
    Quoted from ziz:

    So is wiring multiple pins to a sub from the cabinet speaker really a risk to the sound boards?

    thats the question we need the answer to before we smoke our wpc's like cheap cigars. I am actually still concerned about hooking up one pin to the sub that way for fear that its cutting the impedance to the cab speaker in half

    #7 4 years ago

    For what it is worth, I have connected 2 pins to a single sub many times. In WPC titles such as FT and WH2O I have found that I have to disconnect the internal speaker or it causes(for whatever reason) the sound to not function, in most other platforms I have found you can have both the internal sub and the external sub connected.

    One interesting thing I have noticed is that different era games have different output levels and the external sub seems to work best if I connect the sub to two machines of the same type i.e. Modern sterns with modern Sterns, WPC-95 with WPC-95 etc etc. If they are different platforms then it is hard to find a happy "medium" on the sound level that best suits the machines overall.

    I have personally never had any damage to sound boards from connecting subs in any configuration.

    #8 4 years ago

    I've had my JD wired that way for 9 months and no issues yet, doesn't mean it won't fry it tomorrow but so far so good. I just added The Shadow this week. I figured having two wired to the sub was ok because they are going into different inputs on the sub, but maybe that doesn't matter.

    #9 4 years ago
    Quoted from rcbrown316:

    thats the question we need the answer to before we smoke our wpc's like cheap cigars. I am actually still concerned about hooking up one pin to the sub that way for fear that its cutting the impedance to the cab speaker in half

    You don't use the line-in RCA's if you add a subwoofer the "typical" (?) way. You tap the speaker level off the cab speaker and feed it into high impedance speaker level input on an appropriate sub (the Polk subs are the most common). This puts high impedence in parallel with your existing cab speaker so the overall load increase on the system almost goes to zero once you do the math.

    To use two at a time you wire one pin to L and one pin to R assuming your sub has stereo speaker level input. This been done and tested so many times and I've yet to see anyone over-stress their amplifier section doing it this way on everything from Sys 11 to WPC to Stern machines.

    #10 4 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    "You don't use the line-in RCA's if you add a subwoofer the "typical" (?) way. You tap the speaker level off the cab speaker and feed it into high impedance speaker level input on an appropriate sub"

    "To use two at a time you wire one pin to L and one pin to R assuming your sub has stereo speaker level input.

    this is the way I have it

    "This puts high impedence in parallel with your existing cab speaker so the overall load increase on the system almost goes to zero."

    Not sure I understand this statement. Is this a good or bad thing? I was under the impression that if i hooked two 8 ohm speakers in parallel, the impedence drops to 4ohms. This is why I am concerned

    #11 4 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    You tap the speaker level off the cab speaker and feed it into high impedance speaker level input on an appropriate sub (the Polk subs are the most common). This puts high impedence in parallel with your existing cab speaker so the overall load increase on the system almost goes to zero.

    So I am curious, is their any concerns disconnecting the cabinet speaker and going straight to the external sub, as per my statement above? If I connect the external sub with the cabinet speaker connected to WH2O or FT, the sound does not work at all and I have to go straight to the external for it to work. Is it overloaded?

    #12 4 years ago
    Quoted from rcbrown316:

    Not sure I understand this statement. Is this a good or bad thing? I was under the impression that if i hooked two 8 ohm speakers in parallel, the impedence drops to 4ohms. This is why I am concerned

    8 ohms is not high impedance. 1000+ ohms is, which is what a half decent speaker level input should be at minimum in my (limited) experience.

    Do the math for an 8 ohm (cab speaker?) and a 1k+ ohm (speaker level input to sub). The increase in load is insignificant.

    1/[1/8 + 1/1000] = 7.94 ohms = increase in load by ~0.8%

    The speaker level input could be well above 1kOhm as well, reducing that number further.

    #13 4 years ago
    Quoted from Pin_Crazed:

    So I am curious, is their any concerns disconnecting the cabinet speaker and going straight to the external sub, as per my statement above? If I connect the external sub with the cabinet speaker connected to WH2O or FT, the sound does not work at all and I have to go straight to the external for it to work. Is it overloaded?

    I'm not a WPC expert at all so I won't directly recommend anything to you, but your symptom sounds strange to me if their audio section works akin to Stern's, assuming you are using speaker level inputs on the sub. You should not have to disconnect the cab speaker imo to get the sub to work, and you definitely don't on a Stern machine.

    If you are tapping off the cab and running into the line level of your sub you will have problems and potentially damage your sub or amp section depending on impedance, wattages, etc...

    #14 4 years ago

    Great info Purpledrilmoney, thanks a lot! Looks like I have it all set up correctly, nice to have the reassurance.

    #15 4 years ago
    Quoted from Pin_Crazed:

    So I am curious, is their any concerns disconnecting the cabinet speaker and going straight to the external sub, as per my statement above? If I connect the external sub with the cabinet speaker connected to WH2O or FT, the sound does not work at all and I have to go straight to the external for it to work. Is it overloaded?

    You aren't by chance connecting your sub in series with the cab speaker in some fashion? That would undoubtedly cause your issue I believe...

    #16 4 years ago
    Quoted from Pin_Crazed:

    So I am curious, is their any concerns disconnecting the cabinet speaker and going straight to the external sub, as per my statement above? If I connect the external sub with the cabinet speaker connected to WH2O or FT, the sound does not work at all and I have to go straight to the external for it to work. Is it overloaded?

    Thats the first I heard of this not working? Most people just run two alligator clips off existing cabinet speaker as most have extra tabs on them and then just run that to the sub and all is well? Not sure y your wont work

    #17 4 years ago
    Quoted from ziz:

    Great info Purpledrilmoney, thanks a lot! Looks like I have it all set up correctly, nice to have the reassurance.

    FYI I'm not an expert. I've just hooked subs to pinball machines, and dabble with audio as a hobby. In my experience, speaker level inputs are as close to bulletproof as you can get - there are very few ways to hook them up to "average joe" equipment and actually damage anything.

    Their weakness (imo) is in volume/crossover functionality over multiple source materials. Bassy music might sound great at one setting, but then your movies sound like crap, or vice versa, and you have no control over the sub signal at the speaker level input - only volume of the whole signal.

    For pinball this is largely irrelevant but this is why this post rings true:

    Quoted from Pin_Crazed:

    One interesting thing I have noticed is that different era games have different output levels and the external sub seems to work best if I connect the sub to two machines of the same type i.e. Modern sterns with modern Sterns, WPC-95 with WPC-95 etc etc. If they are different platforms then it is hard to find a happy "medium" on the sound level that best suits the machines overall.

    The settings for a 'good sounding' sub on different eras and styles of machines change, and since we're using speaker level signals, you cant boost or cut the bass itself on the fly, only the overall volume. Hence, it works great to group machines together that 'sound similar' for any sub running multiple signals.

    #18 4 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    8 ohms is not high impedance. 1000+ ohms is, which is what a half decent speaker level input should be at minimum in my (limited) experience.
    Do the math for an 8 ohm (cab speaker?) and a 1k+ ohm (speaker level input to sub). The increase in load is insignificant.
    1/[1/8 + 1/1000] = 7.94 ohms = increase in load by ~0.8%
    The speaker level input could be well above 1kOhm as well, reducing that number further.

    Simply stated I'm thinking that adding an additional load source in parallel is adversely affecting my stock speaker. The sub sounds fine so it has what it needs but i think it's changing the properties of what is being delivered to the cabinet speaker. I am not being combative and appreciate your effort to help big time. There has to be an explanation though. I will F around with the setup a bit more this weekend and post what I find here.

    #19 4 years ago
    Quoted from rcbrown316:

    Simply stated I'm thinking that adding an additional load source in parallel is adversely affecting my stock speaker. The sub sounds fine so it has what it needs but i think it's changing the properties of what is being delivered to the cabinet speaker. I am not being combative and appreciate your effort to help big time. There has to be an explanation though. I will F around with the setup a bit more this weekend and post what I find here.

    Oh no worries. I didn't see you being combative at all. If you are using speaker level inputs on your sub in parallel with your cab speaker I don't know of a way your cab speaker (or it's signal) would be affected. The other thing to try is to invert the phase on the sub if you have that capability. Sound does strange/cool things if you are getting phase cancellation - inverting the phase of the sub might help clear up some muddiness you are perceiving to come from the cab.

    What I would recommend is taking a picture and/or drawing a quick diagram of what you have wired to where. If there's anything wrong with the setup, we/I can better help once it's confirmed everything is wired properly.

    #20 4 years ago

    Leave the stock or aftermarket speakers alone. Plug n play into the sound board connectors. One wire out the head or cabinet down to the sub. Plug n play, comes with 12' 3.5mm cord and dual rca ends to plug into a sub. $35 shipped in the USA

    image-276.jpgimage.jpgimage-692.jpgimage.jpg

    #21 4 years ago

    u can do two games to one sub if u have the Polk sub

    #22 4 years ago

    rcbrown316- I have extensive experience with audio electronics so let me see if I can help you out. It's a long but informative post.

    1) Yes it is possible to share your powered-sub between multiple pins however you need to make some adjustments in your set-up. If you are combining 2 machines on 1 powered-sub by tapping the stock pinball speaker of each machine

    Quoted from rcbrown316:

    I am sharing each sub between two games. i had read that was ok but now i am wondering about the powered subs ability to isolate the two amps from each other.

    then yes you are potentially creating a problem. Without yet discussing the powered subwoofer you have essentially connected the audio output from both of your machines together. Music signals are basically electricity converted to sound by speakers. So even if 1 of the 2 machines connected to the powered subwoofer is "off".. its audio electronic section is still possibly receiving electric signal inputs through its output section from the other machine that is "on" and producing sound. There are surely diodes in all audio equipment circuitry to keep certain electrical signals going in one direction but how far up the chain they are in various pinball amplifier sections is a guess without schematics and it's just not good practice in audio electronics to electrically combine outputs. Powered-subs were not built to isolate multiple inputs....It may work but it could be a cancer to all connections.

    2) Because you have basically combined each machines speaker system you have either dropped or increased the ohm load between each machine to possible limit status. This load most likely includes the back box speakers & amplifier board as well due to most pinball audio amplifiers being mono and all speakers tied into a single output circuit on the amp board. Being that the machines speakers have been tied together we have to treat them as a single unit! You may not hear music from #2 machine when it is off and you are playing #1 machine but that does not mean #2s electrical load is not present or completely isolated. Electricity takes the path of least resistance and that could very well be through a circuit getting tired of power trying to come in its "out" door.

    My recommendations/options:

    A) Purchase a "speaker selector switch" such as this (http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/50-15618) and use it in reverse. These types of switches are used to connect multiple speakers to a single output but in your case we would use it to connect multiple outputs (pinball audio) to a single input (powered subwoofer). This switch would allow you to isolate the audio signals between pinball machines being used. You would connect +/- wires from the powered-sub speaker level "input" to the switch "input" section and each separate machine +/- speaker "output" to the switch's separate speaker channel "output" section. Mind you we are using this switch in reverse so the instructions I just gave are backwards and that is why "input" is going to "input" instead of "input" to "output". All the switch is doing is opening a gate and allowing that specific audio signal to pass through.

    B) I would consider disconnecting the machine subwoofer or replace it with a better quality unit. Although many people on the forum use the machine woofer and a powered sub-woofer together, your machines woofer will surely be under powered compared to the powered-sub and you may or may not hear distortion (clipped electrical audio signals) in the pinball woofer. Distortion is a sign of amplifier strain and or speaker damage and is bad for all involved. If you wish to keep the pinball woofer connected, turn the volume of your powered-sub up moderately above the machines woofer or the machines volume down so it does not have to work as hard to keep up with a much better piece of audio equipment. Also if you desire to keep the pinball woofer connected with the powered-sub it is imperative that you test reverse the -/+ wires on the pinball woofer while connected to the powered woofer. This will place the two woofers 'in" & "out" of phase respectively and the bass will sound better one way or the other for your system. When performing this test I would suggest you close your machine up completely including the glass and listen a bit because air pressure is very important for woofers and makes a hell of a difference in sound on an open -vs- closed machine. You should try the reverse -/+ test for any home or other decent sound system you have sa well. You only have to do it on one speaker.

    C) Consider a separate powered-sub for each machine to simplify and reduce the chance of multiple connection problems. This would be my best choice in your situation to keep things simple .

    D) The adapter that lllvjr shows above seems nice also...I am not familiar with it but seems a great alternative. I would still follow the volume matching considerations described in section (B) above with any speaker additions.

    I replace and up-size my woofers as well as replace my back box speakers with car audio multiaxial type speakers. I install a home theater sub-woofer amp and incorporate it into the machine itself. Most don't go that far but I love and like to feel my music. I even installed an amp on my back box speakers for my Dr. Who machine because it could not keep up with the bass (lol). Hope this helps and feel free to ask any other questions if needed!

    120111160140.jpg
    061412231410-169.jpg

    #23 4 years ago

    That pinnovator adapter is nice. They even have one for a subwoofer and multiple machines. rcbrown it looks like something you could use however would be expensive because you would need the adapter for each machine and they are 99.99ea. You could by separate subwoofers for that...It is a nice product though. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wpc95-stern-whitestar-subwoofer-audio-adapters-fs#post-2215295

    #24 4 years ago
    Quoted from rgb635:

    That pinnovator adapter is nice. They even have one for a subwoofer and multiple machines. rcbrown it looks like something you could use however would be expensive because you would need the adapter for each machine and they are 99.99ea. You could by separate subwoofers for that...It is a nice product though. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wpc95-stern-whitestar-subwoofer-audio-adapters-fs#post-2215295

    Our pinsmx is $65 it has four built in isolation transformers protecting the sound boards from each other. We also have four built in potentiometers to adjust the output from each game to the sub..

    We have adapters for stern white star, stern Sam, Wms wpc95.... In to weeks I'll have adpaters for Wms wpc DM and wms wpc DCS. That will cover every dmd Wms and stern game made.
    Thanks,

    Lorenzo

    image.jpgimage-676.jpg

    #25 4 years ago

    Ok so after getting back on this tonight, I have pulled the specs on your sub and this SA-W2500 subwoofer of discussion does appear to have stereo speaker level inputs so you will not need something more complex such as these adapters/boards to drive multiple machines thru one sub. If you hook two games to one mono input, you will indeed alter the impedance of the speaker circuit but it has absolutely nothing to do with the sub itself, its the two machines being tied together that is the problem - just keep the two machines on two separate inputs to avoid this.

    On a Polk PSW10 you can run two machines into a single sub as it has stereo speaker level input. The sub does all the rest of the work internally; You don't damage the machine, you don't damage the sub. This is what you've read about on the forums but it is restricted to subs like the PSW10 who can take in multiple and separate speaker level signals

    Post edited by Purpledrilmonkey: Correct specs show single, but stereo input

    #26 4 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    Ok so after getting back on this tonight, I have pulled the specs on your sub and this SA-W2500 subwoofer of discussion does NOT appear to have stereo speaker level inputs so you will need something more complex such as these adapters/boards to drive multiple machines thru one sub. If you hook two games to one sub input, you will indeed alter the impedance of the speaker circuit but it has absolutely nothing to do with the sub itself, its the two machines being tied together that is the problem.
    On a Polk PSW10 you can run two machines into a single sub as it has stereo speaker level input. The sub does all the rest of the work internally; You don't damage the machine, you don't damage the sub. This is what you've read about on the forums but it is restricted to subs like the PSW10 who can take in multiple and separate speaker level signals

    The Polk 10" also has a left and right rca input for connecting the same way as the speaker inputs.

    #27 4 years ago
    Quoted from lllvjr:

    The Polk 10" also has a left and right rca input for connecting the same way as the speaker inputs.

    Really? I did not think so... *runs to check*

    Edit: indeed it does. Cool.

    #28 4 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    Really? I did not think so... *runs to check*

    Save u the trip.. Yes it does

    #29 4 years ago

    It has a left and right rca input. If u connect to one rca it plays to the right coil, if u plug into the left it runs the left coil...image-126.jpg

    #30 4 years ago
    Quoted from rcbrown316:

    I have recently bought a few powered subs and had what I thought to be good results but just connecting them to the leads on the cabinet speaker. I think this is adding them in parallel with the cabinet speaker but not sure. I am sharing each sub between two games. i had read that was ok but now i am wondering about the powered subs ability to isolate the two amps from each other. I am sharing one sub between Whirlwind and spiderman 2007 and the other between Judge Dredd and The Shadow. The cabinet speaker in dredd is making a significant popping sound which caused my concern.
    I would like to know for sure:
    1. I can really share one sub between two pins
    2. just connecting to the cabinet speaker that is still in circuit is ok
    3. is there some device that will just allow me to take the signal I need without compromising the stock setup?
    I am looking to add bass using an external sub, not replace any of the stock speakers or take them out of circuit. In some cases I believe the cabinet speaker is multi-range so replcing it with a sub with filter out some of the frequency range. I have read through a bunch of threads but I just want to keep it simple and safe. Here is the sub I am using:
    amazon.com link »

    I had my ST Pro and Mustang side by side sharing a sub and it just didn't work. I mean it worked but all the explosions and stuff in ST just overpowered everything coming out of Mustang.

    #31 4 years ago
    Quoted from MustangPaul:

    I had my ST Pro and Mustang side by side sharing a sub and it just didn't work. I mean it worked but all the explosions and stuff in ST just overpowered everything coming out of Mustang.

    Adjustable potentiometers would solve that issue. It allows u to adjust the signal between the two games to the sub.

    #32 4 years ago
    Quoted from rcbrown316:

    thats the question we need the answer to before we smoke our wpc's like cheap cigars. I am actually still concerned about hooking up one pin to the sub that way for fear that its cutting the impedance to the cab speaker in half

    I've had a external sub hooked up to my Space Shuttle that still has the cab speaker in it for well over a year and have had no problems at all.

    #33 4 years ago
    Quoted from lllvjr:

    Adjustable potentiometers would solve that issue. It allows u to adjust the signal between the two games to the sub.

    Yeah I know that but just to much bs to monkey around with and people are always ask me to turn down the games as it is. I get all 16 games plus the arcade games going and it's a killer down there.

    #34 4 years ago
    Quoted from MustangPaul:

    Yeah I know that but just to much bs to monkey around with and people are always ask me to turn down the games as it is. I get all 16 games plus the arcade games going and it's a killer down there.

    Try one of my headphone kits, mute the cabinet speakers and crank a good set of over ear headphones like dr Dre beats pro. If u have a newer stern like iron man, tron, Metallica or acdc u won't be disappointed

    #35 4 years ago

    I have had FT and WW hooked up to one sub-woofer for years and never SAW a problem or HEARD a problem. I had great balance and sound.

    All of my pins are hooked up two at a time to one sub . . . and my subs are various brands. They are all alligator clipped to the internal 8" speaker in the bottom of the pin cabinets. I have had this like this for so many years, you would think if doing this is 'bad' then I would have seen something by now telling me this ain't a good idea! If it IS a bad idea, then I guess I'm just fucked!

    #36 4 years ago
    Quoted from lllvjr:

    Try one of my headphone kits, mute the cabinet speakers and crank a good set of over ear headphones like dr Dre beats pro. If u have a newer stern like Iron Man, tron, Metallica or acdc u won't be disappointed

    I have come to actually prefer playing my games with the headphones. And yes the Dre Beats sound fantastic. But even my $30 Sony's sound good.
    I get so much more immersed in the game with the headphones.

    #37 4 years ago
    Quoted from rgb635:

    rcbrown316- I have extensive experience with audio electronics so let me see if I can help you out. It's a long but informative post.
    1) Yes it is possible to share your powered-sub between multiple pins however you need to make some adjustments in your set-up. If you are combining 2 machines on 1 powered-sub by tapping the stock pinball speaker of each machine

    then yes you are potentially creating a problem. Without yet discussing the powered subwoofer you have essentially connected the audio output from both of your machines together. Music signals are basically electricity converted to sound by speakers. So even if 1 of the 2 machines connected to the powered subwoofer is "off".. its audio electronic section is still possibly receiving electric signal inputs through its output section from the other machine that is "on" and producing sound. There are surely diodes in all audio equipment circuitry to keep certain electrical signals going in one direction but how far up the chain they are in various pinball amplifier sections is a guess without schematics and it's just not good practice in audio electronics to electrically combine outputs. Powered-subs were not built to isolate multiple inputs....It may work but it could be a cancer to all connections.
    2) Because you have basically combined each machines speaker system you have either dropped or increased the ohm load between each machine to possible limit status. This load most likely includes the back box speakers & amplifier board as well due to most pinball audio amplifiers being mono and all speakers tied into a single output circuit on the amp board. Being that the machines speakers have been tied together we have to treat them as a single unit! You may not hear music from #2 machine when it is off and you are playing #1 machine but that does not mean #2s electrical load is not present or completely isolated. Electricity takes the path of least resistance and that could very well be through a circuit getting tired of power trying to come in its "out" door.
    My recommendations/options:
    A) Purchase a "speaker selector switch" such as this (http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/50-15618) and use it in reverse. These types of switches are used to connect multiple speakers to a single output but in your case we would use it to connect multiple outputs (pinball audio) to a single input (powered subwoofer). This switch would allow you to isolate the audio signals between pinball machines being used. You would connect +/- wires from the powered-sub speaker level "input" to the switch "input" section and each separate machine +/- speaker "output" to the switch's separate speaker channel "output" section. Mind you we are using this switch in reverse so the instructions I just gave are backwards and that is why "input" is going to "input" instead of "input" to "output". All the switch is doing is opening a gate and allowing that specific audio signal to pass through.
    B) I would consider disconnecting the machine subwoofer or replace it with a better quality unit. Although many people on the forum use the machine woofer and a powered sub-woofer together, your machines woofer will surely be under powered compared to the powered-sub and you may or may not hear distortion (clipped electrical audio signals) in the pinball woofer. Distortion is a sign of amplifier strain and or speaker damage and is bad for all involved. If you wish to keep the pinball woofer connected, turn the volume of your powered-sub up moderately above the machines woofer or the machines volume down so it does not have to work as hard to keep up with a much better piece of audio equipment. Also if you desire to keep the pinball woofer connected with the powered-sub it is imperative that you test reverse the -/+ wires on the pinball woofer while connected to the powered woofer. This will place the two woofers 'in" & "out" of phase respectively and the bass will sound better one way or the other for your system. When performing this test I would suggest you close your machine up completely including the glass and listen a bit because air pressure is very important for woofers and makes a hell of a difference in sound on an open -vs- closed machine. You should try the reverse -/+ test for any home or other decent sound system you have sa well. You only have to do it on one speaker.
    C) Consider a separate powered-sub for each machine to simplify and reduce the chance of multiple connection problems. This would be my best choice in your situation to keep things simple .
    D) The adapter that lllvjr shows above seems nice also...I am not familiar with it but seems a great alternative. I would still follow the volume matching considerations described in section (B) above with any speaker additions.
    I replace and up-size my woofers as well as replace my back box speakers with car audio multiaxial type speakers. I install a home theater sub-woofer amp and incorporate it into the machine itself. Most don't go that far but I love and like to feel my music. I even installed an amp on my back box speakers for my Dr. Who machine because it could not keep up with the bass (lol). Hope this helps and feel free to ask any other questions if needed!

    120111160140.jpg 30 KB

    061412231410-169.jpg 25 KB

    holy sh_t man! that's awesome! I hope you were able to grab all that from a previous write up! I think I am going to go with seperate subs for each machine. Now I am looking for a speaker level to line level adapter so I can remove any concern about impedance, ohms, parallel, loads, overloads, whatever. I have a list of about 70 things I need to fix on my 14 machines. I need this off my list. Thanks a million for your insightful and complete response. Top notch stuff man.

    #38 4 years ago

    I'm thuinking seperate subs for each machine with one of these for each also:

    http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/60-10385

    Look what this guy wrote on the product review:

    I used this product to take the speaker output of a public safety base station / control point radio and adapt it to the line level input of an overhead paging amp for a police department HQ station. The radio had no line- or mic-level output and the PA amp had no speaker level input (most don't). This product worked perfectly for the intended application, transferring audio from the radio so that it could be heard at the desired level throughout the police station at the desired level, not too loud, and without distortion.

    This product was intended for a car stereo speaker output to sub-base amp input. As a result, there are two channels on the thing and could adapt two independent speaker-level outputs to two different line level inputs on the amp if you wanted to do that. For under 6 bucks you get to solve the almost unsolvable problem with complete ease of installation effort and low cost. Purchase a suitable length double-RCA-plug cord to interface the device to the amp, pick up speaker audio from the radio wherever you can find it using the supplied leads, and you're good to go. It presents a high impedance to the speaker output of the radio (about 10 K ohms) and doesn't present a load that could reduce the volume of the radio's speaker.

    #39 4 years ago
    Quoted from rcbrown316:

    For under 6 bucks you get to solve the almost unsolvable problem with complete ease of installation effort and low cost. ... It presents a high impedance to the speaker output of the radio (about 10 K ohms) and doesn't present a load that could reduce the volume of the radio's speaker.

    It's not unsolvable. Your speaker level inputs already do what this device does - Line output converters are for devices that don't have speaker level input, which your sub does according to the specs I read.

    My final super short easy-as-pie way to add a sub:

    Take a Polk PSW10 or equivalent, run one pair of the speaker level inputs in parallel with the cab speaker, aaaaand done. Everything else in this thread is overcomplication in regards to getting an external powered sub hooked to a game.

    I apologize if this seems curt but between the expert advice and the marketing efforts in this thread, I've had my fill trying to convey how easy and cheap this actually is.

    I'm bowing out at this point. Best of luck!

    #40 4 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    It's not unsolvable. Your speaker level inputs already do what this device does - Line output converters are for devices that don't have speaker level input, which your sub does according to the specs I read.
    My final super short easy-as-pie way to add a sub:
    Take a Polk PSW10 or equivalent, run one pair of the speaker level inputs in parallel with the cab speaker, aaaaand done. Everything else in this thread is overcomplication in regards to getting an external powered sub hooked to a game.
    I apologize if this seems curt but between the expert advice and the marketing efforts in this thread, I've had my fill trying to convey how easy and cheap this actually is.
    I'm bowing out at this point. Best of luck!

    your effort is appreciated monk

    #41 4 years ago

    just looked at the manual for my sa-w2500 sub Looks like disconnect wire from cabinet speaker>wire it into sub speaker-in> then go from speaker out on sub back to cabinet speaker. This might solve the load issue with no additional trinkets, contraptions or contrivances no?

    https://docs.sony.com/release/SAW2500.pdf

    #42 4 years ago
    Quoted from rcbrown316:

    Looks like disconnect wire from cabinet speaker>wire it into sub speaker-in> then go from speaker out on sub back to cabinet speaker. This might solve the load issue with no additional trinkets, contraptions or contrivances no?

    You got me back.

    Don't disconnect anything. Add the sub in parallel to the cab speaker with speaker level inputs.

    sub2.png

    That's it. No more is required.

    Now I'm out

    #43 4 years ago

    I just remembered I have a nice HSU Research sub that I'm not really using. It's got two speaker level inputs.

    http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

    I'm hooking this baby up to Starship Troopers this weekend!

    #44 4 years ago

    While I agree that a speaker level to line level adapter is not required to connect 2 pins to one sub, the benefit of the $6 device the OP posted is that it would allow you to adjust the subwoofer volume between the 2 pins. I have found that different generation machines need different volume adjustments on the sub.

    For example, my AVLE needs a medium subwoofer volume setting to sound balanced while the POTC needs the volume at 3/4 to all the way up. The $6 device would allow me to turn the volume of the sub to max and trim each pin input down to where both pins sound good.

    #45 4 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    You got me back.
    Don't disconnect anything. Add the sub in parallel to the cab speaker with speaker level inputs.

    That's it. No more is required.
    Now I'm out

    sub2.png 31 KB

    so if this is correct why would there be speaker outs on the sub and why would the manufacturer tell you to go from the amp to the sub then from the sub-out back to the to L and R speakers? There must be a reason for them to have speaker outs on the sub. I'm sure they didn't do it to add additional cost. https://docs.sony.com/release/SAW2500.pdf

    #46 4 years ago
    Quoted from rcbrown316:

    so if this is correct why would there be speaker outs on the sub and why would the manufacturer tell you to go from the amp to the sub then from the sub-out back to the to L and R speakers?

    Because it has a high pass filter and they assume you are rolling off the signal. Designed for home use and maximizing the high pass filter. Not pertinent here on a pin.

    #47 4 years ago

    The outs on the sub are for your left & right speakers. The built in crossover takes the bass from the input signal and plays it through the woofer. The full range signal is then passed back out through the speaker output terminals for your left & right speakers As in surround sound set-ups.

    #48 4 years ago

    As rcbrown said you may connect to the woofer in your machine and then to the powered sub but as i said above be mindful of the volume between the two. Remember its not just only about volume but quality of the sound. I have used the line level converters on car audio systems and in other applications as well. I would suggest you try both and see which gives you better quality sound. Also depending on which input you use (line level vs speaker level), you may lose the ability to control the independent volume of the sub via its own control. rca inputs on these type of subs often depend on "input" volume to adjust the woofer output volume. In that case you would not be able to control the subs volume in respect to the machines volume without adding other unnecessary components.

    #49 4 years ago
    Quoted from Hwawonyu:

    Because it has a high pass filter and they assume you are rolling off the signal. Designed for home use and maximizing the high pass filter. Not pertinent here on a pin.

    whats the difference between a home amp and this pin amp on the component or properties level that would make me do something different?
    what does rolling off the signal mean?
    what does maximizing the high-pass filter mean?

    Just to be clear as to why I want to keep the cabinet speaker in play:

    1. this is a full range speaker
    2. more is better

    #50 4 years ago

    Too long of an answer for me but in simple terms even in home use there are several methods. As a perfect example most folks go line level direct to sub for best sound. In the home that is using the RCA jack.
    No way would I compare the sound of a pin board to even a Bose system(Shudder). We are not talking about any serious level of high fidelity here.
    All you need is to roll off enough bass to add oomf. Its not like you are worried about crossover points etc. Just need some oompf.
    I truly think its being way over thought for fun pin sound.

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