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(Topic ID: 271706)

Addams Family NIGHTMARE


By toobitz

4 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 102 posts
  • 66 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by rvalkenburg
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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There are 102 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 4 months ago

Credit card company should 100% fulfill the charge back, the product described was not shipped! That is literally the reason they offer that protection! else every one would just ship people bricks!

#52 4 months ago
Quoted from Hayfarmer:

If he accepted pics of the machine he recieved it's on the buyer, not the cc co. My idea of restored and someone else's are prob way diff. ask for lots of detailed, dated pics. I recently sent a game from wa state to Georgia and made a vid with that days newspaper on top. Buyer was super happy to see that and loves his pin.

at 13K the restoration process of not having rusty rails is more than implied no?

#53 4 months ago
Quoted from coz6:

at 13K the restoration process of not having rusty rails is more than implied no?

Not according to the seller!

I'm reminded of the scene from Ferris Beuller when he talks about the Ferrari in regards to a HEP TAF!
It would be so CHOICE!

#54 4 months ago

Yeah I'll bet that 13k is long gone.... I have never heard of this guy until now. What a loser... What an embarrassment for my state. Thanks for posting this up. He is definitely in the bad guy roladex now.

#55 4 months ago
Quoted from Hayfarmer:

If he accepted pics of the machine he recieved it's on the buyer, not the cc co. My idea of restored and someone else's are prob way diff. ask for lots of detailed, dated pics. I recently sent a game from wa state to Georgia and made a vid with that days newspaper on top. Buyer was super happy to see that and loves his pin.

I do the newspaper thing myself when I ship a game. That day's newspaper on the glass the day the shippers come. At least I can prove it left my house in good condition.

#56 3 months ago

For $13K, I'd be pissed too. That sucks, man. Good luck with everything.

#57 3 months ago
Quoted from jake35:

What I really don't get, is he had to remove the existing rails to put the decals on. Did he really just put the old rusty ones back on? Wow.

You’re assuming he didn’t just cut the decal along the edge of the side rail. I find it hard to believe the guy would remove and reattach the rails given the rest of the condition...

Another thing that doesn’t make sense to me.. the guy apparently had a “museum quality” TAF to sell, but he didn’t actually have it for several months. If you know a machine intimately enough to know that it’s “museum quality” then you wouldn’t have to go away and find it, and you wouldn’t have to work on it. It either is as described now, or it isn’t.

11
#58 3 months ago

To the OP---you NEED to contact your bank TODAY re: chargeback status. Not the actual credit card, but their issuing bank. Time is of the essence and the clock started ticking the second that you took delivery of this POS...there is a 99% chance you'll be made whole, but time is working against you. Again-do not feel secure that you've contacted the actual credit card...it's the bank that you need to speak with, and yes, I mean SPEAK with, not simply email. Ask me how I know this.....

#59 3 months ago

I would personaly return the rusty side rails to him and "put them at his rear porch! "

#60 3 months ago

There’s always peoples court love that show . Maybe he’ll get yelled at

2 weeks later
14
#61 3 months ago

Video that HEP just made of this machine....

#62 3 months ago

Wow!! What a mess! this is criminal!!!

#63 3 months ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Wow!! What a mess! this is criminal!!!

Ditto what he said!

#64 3 months ago

That pin is going to give me nightmares!

17m6qo (resized).jpg

#65 3 months ago

There needs to be a thread posted at the top of this site to list the names of the crooks in this hobby that pulls shit like this, Really uncalled for and what a scumbag of a person to do this to another person. Op i would call the cc company asap on this issue. For 13k scam with an address, It would be hard for me not to go to this guys door step.

#66 3 months ago

OMG-what a poor job but finally it's in the best hands and will turn out great

#67 3 months ago

toobitz have you decided which way to go with the machine? Any response from the CC company?

#68 3 months ago

Hope you get compensated , that's just horrible to say that game was restored, just a rip off !

#69 3 months ago

after watching that video I am disgusted. I really hope your CC company comes through.

#70 3 months ago
Quoted from jasonp:

Video that HEP just made of this machine....

This video made me sick!

#71 3 months ago

So Sad.

So is HEP going to restore this for you?

#73 3 months ago

Theft pure and simple.

#74 3 months ago

Not worth restoring, sorry. Better to part it out, especially since many of the parts are for other machines.

CC company is your only hope. You should consider involving authorities, seeing that he's done this before and will do it again. Stop the pattern and save someone else.

#75 3 months ago

This is sad.. Hope you will get all your money back

#76 3 months ago
Quoted from 3pinballs:

So Sad.
So is HEP going to restore this for you?

Yeah...I'm also curious.

Did you sell it to HEP or are they restoring it (if possible)?

#77 3 months ago

Seems like sending it to HEP would negate the chargeback. Wouldn't you have to send it back to the seller as part of the chargeback?

Although once I bought a large lot of Magic cards with 3 black lotuses for $3k (back when lotuses were worth about $1k each). Got them and the lotuses were just printed on a cheap home printer, cut out, and glued on to other cards. My credit card immediately gave me my money back and said to keep the cards.

#78 3 months ago

Surprised no one advised getting the FBI Internet fraud division involved.
https://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

#79 3 months ago
Quoted from loneacer:

Seems like sending it to HEP would negate the chargeback. Wouldn't you have to send it back to the seller as part of the chargeback?
Although once I bought a large lot of Magic cards with 3 black lotuses for $3k (back when lotuses were worth about $1k each). Got them and the lotuses were just printed on a cheap home printer, cut out, and glued on to other cards. My credit card immediately gave me my money back and said to keep the cards.

looks like HEP did a video to help him get his money back. HEP being the best in the biz will for sure help his cause. he can send that video to the CC company and the authorities. Filing a police report will also probably help him get his funds back.

15
#80 3 months ago

$13k for that? That’s definitely criminal. Sadly, it’ll cost more than you could recover to go after the guy, so it probably is best to just cut your losses. Looks like Chris at HEP already has it, and you have found the path to what you wanted. Chris isn’t cheap, but you actually DO get what you pay for and then some, so I do still think he’s a very good VALUE for your dollar.

A story on these things....I once had a retail game room store. It went out of business, mostly due to eBay scam artists. We didn’t bleed money as we did sell some machines, but there was one recurring scenario and without it I think we could have made it. It went like this...

Customer comes into store and is very interested in a pinball machine. Would stay and play machines for an hour or two. Sales folks would let him be, and often he’d say “I just have to get the wife on board.” Wife would come in with him and look all skeptical, but she’d let us give our pitch and seem okay with it. They’d wanna think on it.

Guy would come back alone and try to beat us down on the price. We had a nice retail store in a nice retail location with “nice” retail rent. I did a good job of buying decent pins at decent prices, then we did a very good job shopping them (we didn’t restore and didn’t try to sell them as “restored”). Then we had a very good warranty with in-home service after the sale. We did delivery and setup. Our people had years of industry experience. Our prices were not insane.

Problem was eBay. For the titles people wanted (TAF, IJ, etc, of which we ALWAYS kept one or more in stock and ready to go), there was always some scammer with one listed for a grand less than our retail price. The pictures were always just as good as our machine, too, maybe better. So when the guy was trying to beat us down he’d say “but I can get the same thing off eBay for a grand less.” I’d say look, do your homework. There are posts out there that these guys are scammers. You won’t get what they have pictured, it won’t work right, and most importantly you won’t have anyone to fix it. He’d say he’s pretty handy and there are repair guides. He’s at least half right, and as a salesman I sure as hell can’t argue with him about whether he’s handy enough or not. So he’d want to think on it again and leave and I’d be pretty sure that was a lost sale.

That’s not where this story ends, though. Not by a long shot. Over and over and over the repeat versions of this guy would call us, sheepish. They would buy the eBay machine and it would show up just like *I* said it would. Garbage, mostly. And the call would go something like “so, I shouldn’t have done it, but I did the eBay thing and you were right.” And then it was “so what can you do to help me?” I’d say let me come over and see what you have and we can talk about it.

Invariably, I’d go to some McMansion in a gated community. In the garage would be a REALLY nice set of tools that didn’t look to have ever been used. Wife would be in a nice new Tahoe, husband in a big 4 door pickup with lots of chrome. Sitting on a pallet on the floor would be a pinball on no legs, head raised, shrink wrap on the floor still. And it would be garbage. Bare wood showing on play field (or worse, that plus burn marks if a TAF), cabinet damage NOT from shipping, and it wouldn’t work (and sometimes the hacks were so bad you could tell it hadn’t worked right in a LONG time). And there was a MAD AS HELL wife. Dude would keep his voice low when she wasn’t around and ultimately the part of the story you’d get to was simply “man, I can’t have a pinball machine any more, so what can you give me and make this thing go away?”

What’s bad is that these machines weren’t pins I even wanted. I didn’t buy pins for our store that needed play field swaps. I just didn’t do it. Prices weren’t so that it was worth our time back then. I’d end up buying them for like $1500 and then flipping to restorers for two grand just to make it worth MY time to haul it around a couple times.

We definitely weren’t good salespeople. We just told people the truth. At some point I should have kept one of these junkers under a cover in the store. Maybe showing off what you’d really get with a customer story would have helped. I don’t know. Another mistake *I* made was probably not being willing to sell more machines at cost in the beginning (or less!) just to get nice machines in wealthy people’s hands. Because it was wealthy people that were STILL lured to that $1k cheaper machine on eBay, and wealthy people have wealthy friends who might have bought machines. Getting more out there for their friends to see may have been a good thing since we always had happy customers. I think we had *one* lemon that we sold where we just kept having to go on service calls and the customer was getting pretty annoyed about it, and even him we simply upgraded to a nicer title for no money out of his pocket just because we felt bad for him, too, and he ended up happy as a clam.

I don’t know why this hobby attracts so many criminals. But the point here is it always has and apparently always will. Buyer beware on remote deals. You can get ripped off for thousands now and it’s STILL not worth your time to pursue criminal charges. *sigh*

—Donnie

#81 3 months ago
Quoted from djb_rh:

$13k for that? That’s definitely criminal. Sadly, it’ll cost more than you could recover to go after the guy, so it probably is best to just cut your losses. Looks like Chris at HEP already has it, and you have found the path to what you wanted. Chris isn’t cheap, but you actually DO get what you pay for and then some, so I do still think he’s a very good VALUE for your dollar.
A story on these things....I once had a retail game room store. It went out of business, mostly due to eBay scam artists. We didn’t bleed money as we did sell some machines, but there was one recurring scenario and without it I think we could have made it. It went like this...
Customer comes into store and is very interested in a pinball machine. Would stay and play machines for an hour or two. Sales folks would let him be, and often he’d say “I just have to get the wife on board.” Wife would come in with him and look all skeptical, but she’d let us give our pitch and seem okay with it. They’d wanna think on it.
Guy would come back alone and try to beat us down on the price. We had a nice retail store in a nice retail location with “nice” retail rent. I did a good job of buying decent pins at decent prices, then we did a very good job shopping them (we didn’t restore and didn’t try to sell them as “restored”). Then we had a very good warranty with in-home service after the sale. We did delivery and setup. Our people had years of industry experience. Our prices were not insane.
Problem was eBay. For the titles people wanted (TAF, IJ, etc, of which we ALWAYS kept one or more in stock and ready to go), there was always some scammer with one listed for a grand less than our retail price. The pictures were always just as good as our machine, too, maybe better. So when the guy was trying to beat us down he’d say “but I can get the same thing off eBay for a grand less.” I’d say look, do your homework. There are posts out there that these guys are scammers. You won’t get what they have pictured, it won’t work right, and most importantly you won’t have anyone to fix it. He’d say he’s pretty handy and there are repair guides. He’s at least half right, and as a salesman I sure as hell can’t argue with him about whether he’s handy enough or not. So he’d want to think on it again and leave and I’d be pretty sure that was a lost sale.
That’s not where this story ends, though. Not by a long shot. Over and over and over the repeat versions of this guy would call us, sheepish. They would buy the eBay machine and it would show up just like *I* said it would. Garbage, mostly. And the call would go something like “so, I shouldn’t have done it, but I did the eBay thing and you were right.” And then it was “so what can you do to help me?” I’d say let me come over and see what you have and we can talk about it.
Invariably, I’d go to some McMansion in a gated community. In the garage would be a REALLY nice set of tools that didn’t look to have ever been used. Wife would be in a nice new Tahoe, husband in a big 4 door pickup with lots of chrome. Sitting on a pallet on the floor would be a pinball on no legs, head raised, shrink wrap on the floor still. And it would be garbage. Bare wood showing on play field (or worse, that plus burn marks if a TAF), cabinet damage NOT from shipping, and it wouldn’t work (and sometimes the hacks were so bad you could tell it hadn’t worked right in a LONG time). And there was a MAD AS HELL wife. Dude would keep his voice low when she wasn’t around and ultimately the part of the story you’d get to was simply “man, I can’t have a pinball machine any more, so what can you give me and make this thing go away?”
What’s bad is that these machines weren’t pins I even wanted. I didn’t buy pins for our store that needed play field swaps. I just didn’t do it. Prices weren’t so that it was worth our time back then. I’d end up buying them for like $1500 and then flipping to restorers for two grand just to make it worth MY time to haul it around a couple times.
We definitely weren’t good salespeople. We just told people the truth. At some point I should have kept one of these junkers under a cover in the store. Maybe showing off what you’d really get with a customer story would have helped. I don’t know. Another mistake *I* made was probably not being willing to sell more machines at cost in the beginning (or less!) just to get nice machines in wealthy people’s hands. Because it was wealthy people that were STILL lured to that $1k cheaper machine on eBay, and wealthy people have wealthy friends who might have bought machines. Getting more out there for their friends to see may have been a good thing since we always had happy customers. I think we had *one* lemon that we sold where we just kept having to go on service calls and the customer was getting pretty annoyed about it, and even him we simply upgraded to a nicer title for no money out of his pocket just because we felt bad for him, too, and he ended up happy as a clam.
I don’t know why this hobby attracts so many criminals. But the point here is it always has and apparently always will. Buyer beware on remote deals. You can get ripped off for thousands now and it’s STILL not worth your time to pursue criminal charges. *sigh*
—Donnie

Nice story. Thanks for sharing.

#82 3 months ago

toobitz...it PAINS me to see this thread. John unfortunately lives near me and I can attest that this is NOT the first time he has blatantly ripped people off. I lost track the number of times he left a trail of mess, owing people money (on games he bought and promised to pay), selling crap games barely working but advertised as in great shape, and then declares bankruptcy to clear up his mess only to start all over again.

I personally know of other people he ripped off as in still owes them money and of course never paid them to this day. That video HEP released going over the game he sold you is pretty standard for him unfortunately and to be honest I personally have seen worse from him that he sold.

Anyway, make no mistake, he KNOWS what he is doing here and he has a tract record of this. If you need more ammo to try to get your money back from this fraudster, I can try to provide you with others who also got ripped off from him in the past as testimonies. Let me know. Maybe you can get your money back still.

#83 3 months ago

Having had numerous game room treasure games come through my possession, this doesn’t surprise me one bit. Hopefully you get this figured out.

#84 3 months ago

I bought a T2 from John Ridgway about 6 years ago. I was still a little new to the hobby. What a mistake. Took him forever to get the game ready to ship. When it arrived I was very disappointed . The skull was stuck on with a big gob of hot glue on its chin. Not a pretty sight. There was no hunter ship. The CPU was hacked beyond belief. I should have taken a picture before it was repaired. Overall the machine was not what it was supposed to be.
The guys a crook!!!

#85 3 months ago
Quoted from djb_rh:

...
I don’t know why this hobby attracts so many criminals. But the point here is it always has and apparently always will. Buyer beware on remote deals. You can get ripped off for thousands now and it’s STILL not worth your time to pursue criminal charges. *sigh*
—Donnie

Because scammers know that most people in this community purchase with "emotion ahead of logic" and with HEP saying (paraphrased) "Ten years ago you'd be selling this for $800 and now it today's market this would go for $4000, and I am being generous with that price." - scammers know this is a HOT BED of activity and stupid money is changing hands.

And people here on Pinside advertising they're buying LE, SLE, CLE games sight unseen with baseline prices in the $8K realm just attracts the scammers like sharks on bleeding baby sheep in the ocean waters. You think scammers aren't watching people pay $15K for NOB POTCJJP?

There are others like this scammer. Ask me how I know. One ALMOST got me, but I reacted quickly enough and got the game back to him. Coincidentally, no shit, it was TAF. (For those wondering, Google: Pinball Universe).

#86 3 months ago
Quoted from jasonp:

Video that HEP just made of this machine....

I would submit the guy who sold this be blacklisted, at least here on Pinside. Literally nauseous after watching this video.

#87 3 months ago
Quoted from Phoerber:

I would submit the guy who sold this be blacklisted, at least here on Pinside. Literally nauseous after watching this video.

I am curious how some people sleep at night. No way I could rip off anyone like that and hold any sort of half way clear conscious.

#88 3 months ago
Quoted from Atari_Daze:

I am curious how some people sleep at night. No way I could rip off anyone like that and hold any sort of half way clear conscious.

Unfortunately, the world is full of people like this, and always has been.

#89 3 months ago

This is pretty heinous. I saw Chris's video he put out and I thought "man he's being a little harsh for someone sending a game to him that obviously needs a restoration". Then I read this thread.

Absolutely bows my mind. I'm sorry this happened to you, and I hope things get resolved. Keep us updated if you can!

#90 3 months ago

OP, did you see pictures of the game before you bought it?

#91 3 months ago

I still can't believe what sounds like is the seller is getting away with this?

#92 3 months ago

OP... be careful! The credit card company will TELL you what to do and they will likely need you to ship the unit back to seller to regardless of his current situation or finances or hardships or COVID whatever. The Visa or Mastercard merchant agreement is very specific in the remedies they will seek from the seller, but for YOU, the buyer, you are protected by YOUR agreement that you signed when applying for the credit card originally. In a nutshell, your contract agreement signed by you when you got your credit card says: if you receive goods or services that are materially different than what you contracted for, their buyer protection kicks in. That said, the CC will tell you what they need you to do to complete your obligation in this dispute.

(I've been through more than 2 dozen disputes vith VISA for all kinds of goods and services, and the credit card company ALWAYS makes it right AS LONG AS you do your part of what they ask. They will likely want proof that you shipped it back to him).

#93 3 months ago

Oh my god that video is crazy. And to hear HEP say "I don't think I have ever seen that before" (the missing magnet) is telling as he has seen a lot.

#94 3 months ago
Quoted from Markharris2000:

OP... be careful! The credit card company will TELL you what to do and they will likely need you to ship the unit back to seller to regardless of his current situation or finances or hardships or COVID whatever. The Visa or Mastercard merchant agreement is very specific in the remedies they will seek from the seller, but for YOU, the buyer, you are protected by YOUR agreement that you signed when applying for the credit card originally. In a nutshell, your contract agreement signed by you when you got your credit card says: if you receive goods or services that are materially different than what you contracted for, their buyer protection kicks in. That said, the CC will tell you what they need you to do to complete your obligation in this dispute.
(I've been through more than 2 dozen disputes vith VISA for all kinds of goods and services, and the credit card company ALWAYS makes it right AS LONG AS you do your part of what they ask. They will likely want proof that you shipped it back to him).

I suspect that the reason he shipped it to HEP is to get an "outside expert" evaluation for the CC company.

In my one CC dispute, I had to do that. They wanted an evaluation to see that the service I received was "below industry standard". I got a letter from a secondary provider which said basically "Yes, we would never provide service that looks like this and would not expect a customer to be satisfied with it."

Once the CC got that statement, they credited me the full amount.

#95 3 months ago

He’s having HEP restore it.

Quoted from toobitz:

I'm already arranging shipping to Chris at High end pins for a real job. I'll never get the money back out of it, but at least it will be done right. By far, will be the most expensive one on the planet once it's done.

#96 3 months ago

You shouldn't have given up on the chargeback. A transcript of that appraisal by a reputable professional relative to the description you were given could have went a long way as proof to the credit card company.

You've got a good attitude to sort it out and live with it though. I wouldn't be able to do that, would just want it gone to not have to think about it, as well as how much money went into it. Sorry.

#97 3 months ago

It is still worth talking to credit card company to see where the dispute status is. Disputes must be resolved in 60 days of your filling. If you have shipped the unit already, then have Chris evaluate and appraise it ONLY, until you find out what the credit card wants you to do. Offer the credit card company 'furthar evidence' for your previously filed dispute. Then you send them Chris' evaluation document. Again, the credit card provider will tell you what they want you to do.

One piece of information you might want Chris to include is his current appraised value in the condition it is today. On a cumbersome item like this, your credit card MAY be willing to settle the dispute for the difference between the $13K you paid and the "$5K" Chris thinks its worth in the condition it sits. Again, the credit card company calls all the shots on remedies/requirements.... but they usually work in the BUYER's favor if it is a legitimate dispute.

#98 3 months ago

So is it confirmed the OP abandoned the chargeback?

I assumed he’d sent it to HEP to get a professional appraisal for the CC company, not to get a top end restore done.

He’s going to end up with the world’s most expensive regular TAF . A real shame.

#99 3 months ago
Quoted from Durzel:

He’s going to end up with the world’s most expensive regular TAF . A real shame.

To be fair, I think a Chris Hutchins TAF is worth more than an unrestored gold TAF to anybody worth their salt.

#100 3 months ago
Quoted from radial_head:

To be fair, I think a Chris Hutchins TAF is worth more than an unrestored gold TAF to anybody worth their salt.

Easily!

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