Addams Family, The
Bally, 1992Hey Guys.... DMD problem
I just got this TAF pin (quite a score at $2400, BTW)
It looks like a cloud of lit pixels creeps off (in this case) the 36,920,720 digits and move downward as it expands. It is like that on any other screen; the correct graphic appear and the lit pixels creep off the graphics expand out from there. Other than that the DMD functions normally.
I took these photos rapidly so you can see how the lit pixels are expanding.
Quoted from Imeh:Did you already reseat cables?
That's Right,do this on display and dot matrix board.....2400!! man that was a lucky transaction
I reseated cable but problem remains. Could it be a bad ribbon cable? I did notice that when I start the game up, I do not see the issue, but within 1 minute or so it begins
REVISED: It actually begin occurring after about 5 minutes from machine turn on.
Check your -112v, -100v, and 65 volts. I think one is going out of spec.
I had the same situation on Corvette and had to rebuild the HV on the DMD controller board.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Check your -112v, -100v, and 65 volts. I think one is going out of spec.
I had the same situation on Corvette and had to rebuild the HV on the DMD controller board.
Thanks man, I will give it a look. Also, I noticed that the ghosting started up after about 5 minutes from machine turn on.
Have you checked the Viristor and Thermistor in the power box?? Seen this on WPC when those 2 pieces get to hot. They may also look intact and be blown, meter them. It's the first thing to check when you get a new machine. I also replace my power cords no matter how good they look.
Quoted from wantdataeast:I just got this TAF pin
Check your -112v, -100v, and 65 volts. I think one is going out of spec.
I had the same situation on Corvette and had to rebuild the HV on the DMD controller board.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Check your -112v, -100v, and 65 volts. I think one is going out of spec.
I had the same situation on Corvette and had to rebuild the HV on the DMD controller board.
If this is my problem, How is this rebuild done?
Anyway I hope the video can further illustrate my issue, before I start taking this girl apart.
Quoted from wantdataeast:If this is my problem, How is this rebuild done?
Anyway I hope the video can further illustrate my issue, before I start taking this girl apart.
We will not know unless you do measure the voltages.
Rebuild the driver would mean to replace/solder multiple parts to get the voltages in spec.
Can you solder? if not, then you would be better off sending the DMD controller board to get repaired or replace the board.
If you could even take the DMD controller to a friend's house to test on another WPC game, that would help. You could narrow down the problem by testing the DMD in your Jurassic Park. Just make sure you hold the DMD by the edges or you'll feel the high voltages.
When my TZ did this the problem was the high voltage for the dmd plasma display. My board was cooked and I bought an aftermarket replacement for the HV section of the dmd driver board. I suggest you check the driver board and go from there..
Quoted from robotronjohn:When my TZ did this the problem was the high voltage for the dmd plasma display. My board was cooked and I bought an aftermarket replacement for the HV section of the dmd driver board. I suggest you check the driver board and go from there..
Do you have a part number or link to where you got your replacement dmd driver board? EDIT... I found the Rottendog replacement...only $88 I might just go that route.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:We will not know unless you do measure the voltages.
Rebuild the driver would mean to replace/solder multiple parts to get the voltages in spec.
Can you solder? if not, then you would be better off sending the DMD controller board to get repaired or replace the board.
Yes I can solder but the DMD board i have has already been rebuild, and it looks like hell. I would like to try and rebuild this one again, but I am considering just buying an after market board.
Agree - I can't think of anything causing this other than a bad plasma panel, or bad PSU. PSU is very easy to check, and a fairly common failure.
(Edit - I buy dead boards, so if you replace your one, I could offer you a little for the old board)
Quoted from robotronjohn:When my TZ did this the problem was the high voltage for the dmd plasma display. My board was cooked and I bought an aftermarket replacement for the HV section of the dmd driver board. I suggest you check the driver board and go from there..
I am a bit confused "I bought an aftermarket replacement for the HV section of the dmd driver board." Are you talking about the something like this: https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=WPC-HVP-KIT
You Know, you got such a deal on this, forget the piggyback board and get a Color DMD, They look great too! It doesn't use the high voltage from the DMD board.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:You Know, you got such a deal on this, forget the piggyback board and get a Color DMD, They look great too! It doesn't use the high voltage from the DMD board.
That is a good idea and i may go there, but I think I'll just do replacement board first, then do the Color DMD later.
I like to give everything an honest repair effort before going to a replacement board of any type.
It is very obvious that this board was poorly designed. The Resistor at R8 in the HV section gets too hot to touch within 1 minute of powering up. This should have not been placed up against the board when built. This resistor should be replaced and positioned as far off the board as the leads will allow to let air flow under it to cool it better.
Quoted from wantdataeast:It is very obvious that this board was poorly designed. The Resistor at R8 in the HV section gets too hot to touch within 1 minute of powering up. This should have not been placed up against the board when built. This resistor should be replaced and positioned as far off the board as the leads will allow to let air flow under it to cool it better.
We could go all day long on the design flaws of the late 80's and at Bally/Williams and in the 90's..Not a fan of the piggyback board, believe it or not it will create more heat underneath. New replacement Rottendog Dmd only runs about $90.
Did you ever open up your power box after removing it from side wall? Check the Veristor and Thermistor, if never replaced they are both very old at this point. These will control the start up power flow and regulate as they should. If they are old and brittle, I always check them first when I get a new game. Have had 3 bad veristor's on new purchases, and 3 bad thermistors. You should look.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:We could go all day long on the design flaws of the late 80's and at Bally/Williams and in the 90's..Not a fan of the piggyback board, believe it or not it will create more heat underneath. New replacement Rottendog Dmd only runs about $90.
Did you ever open up your power box after removing it from side wall? Check the Veristor and Thermistor, if never replaced they are both very old at this point. These will control the start up power flow and regulate as they should. If they are old and brittle, I always check them first when I get a new game. Have had 3 bad veristor's on new purchases, and 3 bad thermistors. You should look.
800px-WPCPowerBoxInside_(resized).jpg
No I did not check either... could that cause my DMD problem?
and I am with you on the piggy back board, I would go for a new rotten dog first.
Yes, it can cause power problems on dmd directly. Only because I had it first hand on my Addams. It was Fritzing on and off, finally went of bad, so bad I felt I should power off. Opened power box, termistor was fried and barely touching its other side. Replaced it, all was good. Let me know, 50/50 chance it's it.
Eric
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Yes, it can cause power problems on dmd directly. Only because I had it first hand on my Addams. It was Fritzing on and off, finally went of bad, so bad I felt I should power off. Opened power box, termistor was fried and barely touching its other side. Replaced it, all was good. Let me know, 50/50 chance it's it.
Eric
I am also getting some intermittent mild activation of the magnets as well, so I am going to investigate your suggestion.
Well, that sounds like the cpu, only thing that could do that if magnets are activated in a routine or mode, multi ball, seance, etc..
Still doesn't hurt to pull the power box off wall of cabinet inside and look. Unplug from wall, service outlet on power box is always active, even when game is turned off. That's a hot outlet.
So it's 6 screws on power box, take a look.
Eric
Quoted from wantdataeast:I am also getting some intermittent mild activation of the magnets as well, so I am going to investigate your suggestion.
What is your software version that you are using? You can see that upon turning on the game.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Check your -112v, -100v, and 65 volts. I think one is going out of spec.
I had the same situation on Corvette and had to rebuild the HV on the DMD controller board.
Quoted from wantdataeast:Yes I can solder but the DMD board i have has already been rebuild, and it looks like hell. I would like to try and rebuild this one again, but I am considering just buying an after market board.
Also, still waiting to hear the results of your measurements. Would be nice to see pictures of the DMD controller board to tell what areas had been repaired.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Also, still waiting to hear the results of your measurements. Would be nice to see pictures of the DMD controller board to tell what areas had been repaired.
To be honest man, I don't know where to check that voltage. At start up I see Rev L-3. When I bought it it had two DMD controller boards, and two DMD displays, I think the former owner was trying to shotgun the problem. Both of the DMD controller boards were repaired in the typical section... the High voltage area.
One of my DMD controller board had a few small resistors which looked visually bad (R13,R6,R12,R3) so I replaced them with ones that turn out have the correct color markings but were to small of wattage... they fried immediately upon testing) That took out all the diodes and resistor between the J605 connector and the Q8 transistor. (hopefully the little transistors at Q4, Q5 were spared the zap). I have a few HV repair Kits from Great Plains Electronics on the way, they should be here today or tomorrow.
But for $90 I think a Rottendog DMD would be great to have on hand if for no other reason that to diagnose problems like my cloudy DMD.
Quoted from wantdataeast:To be honest man, I don't know where to check that voltage. At start up I see Rev L-3
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#WPC_Dot_Matrix_Controller_board
section 4.21.8 will help with that.
Just unplug your power to your DMD. You can wedge your black meter lead in between the ground braid wire and the bottom of the backbox.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Just unplug your power to your DMD. You can wedge your black meter lead in between the ground braid wire and the bottom of the backbox.
I will check the voltage now
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Just unplug your power to your DMD. You can wedge your black meter lead in between the ground braid wire and the bottom of the backbox.
according to the table at:
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#WPC_Dot_Matrix_Controller_board
section 4.21.8
The connector to my DMD should be the following:
Pin1 (Anode) : -110v (Spec) , -112v (nominal WPC voltage)
Pin2 (12VDC Offset) : -98v (Spec) , -100v (nominal WPC voltage)
Pin3 (Key)
Pin4 (ground)
Pin5 (ground)
Pin6 (5vdc) : 5v(spec), 5v (nominal WPC voltage)
Pin7 (12vdc) : 12v(spec), 12v (nominal WPC voltage)
Pin8 (Cathode) : 75v(spec), 62v (nominal WPC voltage)
At start up:
Pin1 (Anode) : -135v
Pin2 (12VDC Offset) : -125v
Pin3 (Key)
Pin4 (ground)
Pin5 (ground)
Pin6 (5vdc) : 4.8v
Pin7 (12vdc) : 12v
Pin8 (Cathode) : 64.2v
After around 15 minutes of play:
Pin1 (Anode) : -139 to -140v
Pin2 (12VDC Offset) : -129v
Pin3 (Key)
Pin4 (ground)
Pin5 (ground)
Pin6 (5vdc) : 4.8v
Pin7 (12vdc) : 12v
Pin8 (Cathode) : 66v
I have seen a minor reduction in clouding error, after an experiment I did. I removed the 3 ceramic resistors at R8, R9, R11 and soldered leads on them and reinstalled them so that it would bring them well of the board to help them cool (the one near the J604 connector is the one that gets super hot.)
I wanted to see the effect of doing this...and to be very honest it seems to have caused a reduction in the clouding effect. but the clouding effect is still there.
Quoted from wantdataeast:I have seen a minor reduction in clouding error, after an experiment I did. I removed the 3 ceramic resistors at R8, R9, R11 and soldered leads on them and reinstalled them so that it would bring them well of the board to help them cool (the one near the J604 connector is the one that gets super hot.)
I wanted to see the effect of doing this...and to be very honest it seems to have caused a reduction in the clouding effect. but the clouding effect is still there.
As these 2 voltages rise, that is when you will see the clouding effect. So it seems the voltages rise as the game is on longer. Your HV needs to be rebuilt (by yourself or by someone who repairs boards) or replace the DMD controller board.
Pin1 (Anode) : -139 to -140v
Pin2 (12VDC Offset) : -129v
The problem was the HV section. I rebuilt it and it work perfectly now.
I used this kit from great plains electronics that cost only $5. What a great price!
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=WPC-HVP-KIT
At only $5, I bought a few (for my future DMD problem machines)
Here is the display after the repair:
Perfect DMD. Now is it time to upgrade your MPU to have NVRAM so you don't have to worry about future alkaline damage.
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Perfect DMD. Now is it time to upgrade your MPU to have NVRAM so you don't have to worry about future alkaline damage.
Amen brother! It is on the to do list for this machine. Thanks.
So I think the moral of the story is to alway check your voltage at you DMD when you have any DMD issues. Here are my voltages now after rebuilding the HV section of the DMD controller board.
Pin1 (Anode) : -118.6v
Pin2 (12VDC Offset) : -106.7v
Pin3 (Key)
Pin4 (ground)
Pin5 (ground)
Pin6 (5vdc) : 4.8v
Pin7 (12vdc) : 12.3v
Pin8 (Cathode) : 66.7v
For anyone new to this repair… Like me… you check the voltage here:
and check your numbers vs those discussed here:
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#WPC_Dot_Matrix_Controller_board
section 4.21.8
Quoted from wantdataeast:Amen brother! It is on the to do list for this machine. Thanks.
NVRAM is an easy upgrade on your DE JP and SW. Pop out the old RAM (already socketed) and pop in the NVRAM. Pool Sharks on the other hand, check those batteries often. Those original System 11 boards are not easy to find when you need one.
When you do your rebuild, mount your resistors high off the board so you will get air flow underneath. Ideally you should use ceramic (or some type of high temp) stand off mounts... unfortunately I did not have any available.
(BTW, this solder repair job looks pretty bad because I was repairing some else's old hack job)
The transistors mounted to the aluminum heatsinks get damn hot, so make sure you use plenty of heatsink compound when you screw down the transistor to heat sink.
The 5W 4.7KJ ceramic resistor at R8 gets the hottest, but I also elevated the ceramic resistors at R11 and R9 as well, it helps keep them away from the heatsinks which should reduce the overall heat in the area.
IMG_6806_(resized).jpg
IMG_6809_(resized).jpg
I also elevated the resistors at R13, R6, R12, R3 as well... they also get hot (interesting note.. in the rebuild kit they upgrade the replacement resistors here from 1/2 watt to 1 watt.)
IMG_6808_(resized).jpg
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Is your game still working well? Did you remove the batteries off the MPU? Install NVRAM yet?
No, I have not installed NVRAM yet. I have not taken the time to find a tutorial here on Pinside.... any link would be appreciated.
Ya know,my dmd looks entirely different than that!! Mines programed for full color! Why install a color dmd with no color program??? And,if you guys haven't gone to a NVRAM,your way behind!and don''t forget to dismount the magnet driver board,right under the small thing flipper,and turn it over ,cry,and clean it off !! Good to go for 20 more years!!!:)peace
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