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(Topic ID: 102851)

Actual cost of a pinball machine = a lot more than I thought


By flashinstinct

6 years ago



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#1 6 years ago

With Stern releasing the new TWD with a price increase in the pro I'd like the pinside crowd to breakdown the pinball cost and see really how much it cost it terms of parts to build a pinball machine. Because at $6K all I see is Gary filling is pockets with more cash. On the other hand i really think that Stern has hit the fragile balance between making a huge profit and pissing people off. What I mean by that is that TWD looks absolutely amazing... but with the price increase on the pro....i think it has really pissed a lot of people off. So how much cheese is Gary picking up per unit? I'm assuming that he buys in bulk so that is reflected here.

Cabinet costs (=/- $300 per macine):
Wood = $45
Screws and metal fittings = $20
Artwork Prints and decals = $35
Back of playfield decal (prison decal) = $6
Miscellaneous plastic parts = $20
Power supply and wiring = $15
Employee cost to build = $45
Employee cost to stick stickers = $20
Legs = $25
Lockbar, rails, hinges = $30
Coin Door = $45

Artwork ($10-$15 per machine):
I'm guessing it takes a designer or series of designer roughly 300-400 hours to design this thing and let's say they get paid $100 per hour. That is $30K-$40K in artwork. Now let's divide that by roughly 3000 units. It averages at about $10-15 dollars per machine.

This would include backglass, cabinet design and playfield artwork for Pro and LE playfield.

Printing, drilling CNC machine ($120 per machine)
So I'm guessing it takes a CNC machine about 20 minutes to make one of these.... = $33 bucks
Printing artwork on playfield another 20 minutes = $33 bucks
Clearcoating another 20 minutes = $33 bucks
Actual wood for playfield $20

Engineering ($60 per machine)
I'm guessing it takes an engineer about 600 hours to make one machine. Or the better part of 75 working days (8 hours). Now multiple that by 2...because I will assume that one engineer is not enough. And put a billing rate of $150 per hour. We are looking at $180K. Divide that by 3000 machines and it averages out at about $60 dollars per machine.

Standard Playfield parts ($300 per machine)
Since these parts are purchased in bulk and I will assume that the regular parts that are used from one machine to the other (flippers, braids, coils, hex screw, hex post, rubbers etc) I'm guessing Gary gets mad deals on this since he orders oh let's say 100,000 units per order.

Specific parts that are unique to one machine ($400 per machine)
In this instance let's think about the Fish Tank, the molded zombies (Bash Toy and heads) and all the specific metal parts that are unique to TWD.

Fish Tank Heads = $3 per piece for a total of $9
Tank Assembly = $3
Bash Toy = $6
Bash Toy showing guts assembly = $10
Head hunder ramp = $4
Metal Rails and guides = $50
Prison C Block = $35
Prison C Block Head = $4
Door mech for C block = $10
Ramps = $40
Lifting ramp mech = $50
Diverter = $10
Crossbow = They already paid for engineering there with AP so I am guessing maybe another $50 for that mech
Oversight = $100

Programming (about $90 per machine)
So I'm thinking a programmer works a good 1000 hours to program this thing. With a junior programmer in tow to help out for another 800 hours for at total of 1800 hours. At a rate of $150 per hour for a total of $270K. Again divide by 3000 machines is roughly $300 per machine.

Employee line assembling a machine ($200)
According to some of you Stern can produce roughly 40 machines per day. I will assume it goes through about 10 people from start to finish. So let's say the line employee gets paid $20 per hour we should assume that it costs about $200 to assemble one.

Employees need tools to assemble these things....yes even the microwaves ($300)
I'm guessing employees go through a lot of tools in one year. So let's put that at $3 million dollars worth of tools per year. 3 different pinball per year, so let's put that down to $1 million in tools.... so roughly $300 bucks per machine

Electricity / Fuel / Maintenance ($300)
Let's tack on another $300 per machine to help the business stay afloat and make sure the toilets can flush at Stern headquarters.

Non pinball related employees..... ($300)
Someone needs to answer the phone and get paid right. So lets say another 60 employees that are not on the floor or doing pinball related things. Let's average out their pay at $50K per year. $3 million. So again let's tack on another $300 per machine.

Warranty items ($300)
So we will put another $300 in here in case something goes wrong and they need to warrant something.

GRAND TOTAL = $2385 (cost)

*UPDATE*//////
Lets' add the big fat profit margin so 25% profit to add to the last grand total = $600 per machine
Licensing = $600 per unit
/////

I've been generous in some areas but might be in total left field for other areas. Who would like to help me refine this thing.

So how much do distributors tack on? 50%...cost is still about $4.8K so where is the other $1.2K????

28
#2 6 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

all I see is Gary filling is pockets with more cash

I hope Stern makes money. I hope Jersey Jack Pinball makes money. I hope PPS and CG make money. I hope Spooky makes money. I hope every company making pins makes money.

Otherwise no new pins.

How about you ? How much does it really cost to feed you ? $5 a day ? How much to live in a tent somewhere ? $50 for used tent and sleep in park.

You can get by without any extras. How much do you make a week ? Bet it's more then what you could really get by on.

LTG : )™

#3 6 years ago

I did add the people's pay in there The only thing I didn't add was Gary's pay The guy can survive on Vodka anyways....

#4 6 years ago

After dipping my toe into this conversation last week,

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-announces-metallica-pro-now-led-and-speaker-panel-decal-5600

I'm getting my popcorn now...

#5 6 years ago

"Employee cost to build = $45"

WAT?

#6 6 years ago

Nice try but the cost of developing a modern pinball machine is in the range of millions of dollars.
I don't think you can systematically breakdown costs as you have.
You also seem to have forgotten the whole building a viable factory part with decades of experience.

#7 6 years ago

I thought Stern had investors?.....................there goes the other 3k.

#8 6 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

"Employee cost to build = $45"
WAT?

To build the cab...meaning they put the glue on and put in the brackets where they go. + another $25 for the person laying down the stickers... Seems logical.

-1
#9 6 years ago
Quoted from beepnutz:

I thought Stern had investors?.....................there goes the other 3k.

Ah yes forgot about the sharks LOL

#10 6 years ago

I hope Gary makes as much money from his business efforts as he can.

I hope Gary continues to build machines that people want to play so that pinball gets more popular and more pinball machines get created and bought.

I hope Gary inspires others to form new competing companies that produce pinball machines so they may also make lots of money and employ others.

I hope Gary decides to do a Tron Premium run.

#11 6 years ago

I think it is a fun discussion and you are slightly low in total cost, but 3k is the top end for a facility/ product like this, so they are still making boatloads of cash.

LTG >> I am fine with them making some money but feel the current level of greed is bad for the long term health of the hobby.

It costs smaller startup way more $$$ to produce a game and the time is a huge constraint. When Stern can pump out 3 games a year and continues to increase the cost, they are sucking lots of extra out of the hobby and it is not sustainable.

Hopefully other companies will fill the niche and be able to produce better games for less money. Once Sterns bottom line is hurting, then will really need to make a decision besides "how much will these suckers pay?"

#12 6 years ago

I'm not debating that Stern should make money.. And yes Gary should make the amount that he makes. As for Tron...you can always dream

So let's modify the numbers.... *reviewed up top* So I add $600 per machine as profit margin for investors and Gary himself.

#13 6 years ago

The estimates for labor here are just insanely wrong. 75 working days to engineer the machine? Even if there are no novel toys on the playfield it takes hours to do some fairly simple designs not including the playing time to test layouts.

But that put aside. 3x the cost is actually pretty standard for ANY manufacturing company, and certainly not limited to stern. That being said if people dont buy this machine at this price then stern will know where they stand on future games.

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

With Stern releasing the new TWD with a price increase in the pro I'd like the pinside crowd to breakdown the pinball cost and see really how much it cost it terms of parts to build a pinball machine. Because at $6K all I see is Gary filling is pockets with more cash. On the other hand i really think that Stern has hit the fragile balance between making a huge profit and pissing people off. What I mean by that is that TWD looks absolutely amazing... but with the price increase on the pro....i think it has really pissed a lot of people off. So how much cheese is Gary picking up per unit? I'm assuming that he buys in bulk so that is reflected here.
Cabinet costs (=/- $300 per macine):
Wood = $45
Screws and metal fittings = $20
Artwork Prints and decals = $35
Back of playfield decal (prison decal) = $6
Miscellaneous plastic parts = $20
Power supply and wiring = $15
Employee cost to build = $45
Employee cost to stick stickers = $20
Legs = $25
Lockbar, rails, hinges = $30
Coin Door = $45
Artwork ($10-$15 per machine):
I'm guessing it takes a designer or series of designer roughly 300-400 hours to design this thing and let's say they get paid $100 per hour. That is $30K-$40K in artwork. Now let's divide that by roughly 3000 units. It averages at about $10-15 dollars per machine.
This would include backglass, cabinet design and playfield artwork for Pro and LE playfield.
Printing, drilling CNC machine ($120 per machine)
So I'm guessing it takes a CNC machine about 20 minutes to make one of these.... = $33 bucks
Printing artwork on playfield another 20 minutes = $33 bucks
Clearcoating another 20 minutes = $33 bucks
Actual wood for playfield $20
Engineering ($60 per machine)
I'm guessing it takes an engineer about 600 hours to make one machine. Or the better part of 75 working days (8 hours). Now multiple that by 2...because I will assume that one engineer is not enough. And put a billing rate of $150 per hour. We are looking at $180K. Divide that by 3000 machines and it averages out at about $60 dollars per machine.
Standard Playfield parts ($300 per machine)
Since these parts are purchased in bulk and I will assume that the regular parts that are used from one machine to the other (flippers, braids, coils, hex screw, hex post, rubbers etc) I'm guessing Gary gets mad deals on this since he orders oh let's say 100,000 units per order.
Specific parts that are unique to one machine ($400 per machine)
In this instance let's think about the Fish Tank, the molded zombies (Bash Toy and heads) and all the specific metal parts that are unique to TWD.
Fish Tank Heads = $3 per piece for a total of $9
Tank Assembly = $3
Bash Toy = $6
Bash Toy showing guts assembly = $10
Head hunder ramp = $4
Metal Rails and guides = $50
Prison C Block = $35
Prison C Block Head = $4
Door mech for C block = $10
Ramps = $40
Lifting ramp mech = $50
Diverter = $10
Crossbow = They already paid for engineering there with AP so I am guessing maybe another $50 for that mech
Oversight = $100
Programming (about $90 per machine)
So I'm thinking a programmer works a good 1000 hours to program this thing. With a junior programmer in tow to help out for another 800 hours for at total of 1800 hours. At a rate of $150 per hour for a total of $270K. Again divide by 3000 machines is roughly $300 per machine.
Employee line assembling a machine ($200)
According to some of you Stern can produce roughly 40 machines per day. I will assume it goes through about 10 people from start to finish. So let's say the line employee gets paid $20 per hour we should assume that it costs about $200 to assemble one.
Employees need tools to assemble these things....yes even the microwaves ($300)
I'm guessing employees go through a lot of tools in one year. So let's put that at $3 million dollars worth of tools per year. 3 different pinball per year, so let's put that down to $1 million in tools.... so roughly $300 bucks per machine
Electricity / Fuel / Maintenance ($300)
Let's tack on another $300 per machine to help the business stay afloat and make sure the toilets can flush at Stern headquarters.
Non pinball related employees..... ($300)
Someone needs to answer the phone and get paid right. So lets say another 60 employees that are not on the floor or doing pinball related things. Let's average out their pay at $50K per year. $3 million. So again let's tack on another $300 per machine.
Warranty items ($300)
So we will put another $300 in here in case something goes wrong and they need to warrant something.
GRAND TOTAL = $2385 (cost)
I've been generous in some areas but might be in total left field for other areas. Who would like to help me refine this thing.
So how much do distributors tack on? 50%...cost is still about $3.2K so where is the other $3K????

I'm not sure what you do for a living but it's clear to me that you have never had to deal with indirect overhead (costs that can not be directly attributed to the cost of making a good or service yet is part of the overall operating expense of the company). What about utilities, executives salaries, workers comp, health and welfare payments, consumables (toiletries, pencils, paper, etc), on and on. In my company, my indirect is 46% of my costs. You also neglected payroll taxes, corporate/state/federal taxes.

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from iankellogg:

The estimates for labor here are just insanely wrong. 75 working days to engineer the machine? Even if there are no novel toys on the playfield it takes hours to do some fairly simple designs not including the playing time to test layouts.
But that put aside. 3x the cost is actually pretty standard for ANY manufacturing company, and certainly not limited to stern. That being said if people dont buy this machine at this price then stern will know where they stand on future games.

Completely agree. Like I said...numbers might be off in some places....but I did put down $1 million for tools just for these machines....and obviously those tools will get reused elsewhere down the line on other machines.....

#16 6 years ago

What are you paying the programmers for if there are no electronics, wires, or DMD?

#17 6 years ago

Oh god...not this again.

#18 6 years ago

Definitely going to need popcorn...

You also left out the cost for licensing which can be a six figure cost.
You left out overhead. These things are not just the sum of the components. Stern has to cover operating costs, rent, utilities, benefits, IT (designing these things takes some pricey 3D rendering)...

I think the numbers you presented only show part of the picture. Stern is not making money hand over fist.

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

I'm not sure what you do for a living but it's clear to me that you have never had to deal with indirect overhead (costs that can not be directly attributed to the cost of making a good or service yet is part of the overall operating expense of the company). What about utilities, executives salaries, workers comp, health and welfare payments, consumables (toiletries, pencils, paper, etc), on and on. In my company, my indirect is 46% of my costs. You also neglected payroll taxes, corporate/state/federal taxes.

I'm a graphic designer...but you are right I don't have to deal with overhead. So how much should I add to the non pinball related employees section?

-1
#20 6 years ago

Beyond the cost of materials I think R&D has to be $1mil+ for a machine.

How much do you think Steve Richie gets paid? I'd imagine it's at least in the $250k/year range.

#21 6 years ago

First, I like where you are going with this. It's a fun thought experiment.

I think you are also missing some other costs:

Building Cost, Utilities, Etc.
Insurance
Marketing
Licensing
Local, State, and Federal Taxes on Income

That's not it, but those account for some of the MOR.

#22 6 years ago

Wow. I thought these kinds of threads only existed about JJP products. I guess that's what charging $8600 for a pin brings out in people.

#23 6 years ago

Costs are irrelevant, it's what the market will pay.

I don't begrudge any biz making as much profit as they can. Especially when it is a real widget business making something. This isn't some crazy wall street ponzi or something pushing paper.

#24 6 years ago
Quoted from NJGecko:

Definitely going to need popcorn...
You also left out the cost for licensing which can be a six figure cost.
You left out overhead. These things are not just the sum of the components. Stern has to cover operating costs, rent, utilities, benefits, IT (designing these things takes some pricey 3D rendering)...
I think the numbers you presented only show part of the picture. Stern is not making money hand over fist.

I did add $300 per machine for utilities, like fuel and electricity.

Rent? Shouldn't they own there warehouse by now?

I did forget licensing.... So let's put down $2 million / 3000 units.... That is $600 per machine ....whoa!!!!

#25 6 years ago

Indirect costs definitely fill up a lot of that gap that you left out flashinstinct.

I may be off, but does Stern have to pay anything for a licensing fee with all these movie/music based pins?

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from asay:

Beyond the cost of materials I think R&D has to be $1mil+ for a machine.
How much do you think Steve Richie gets paid? I'd imagine it's at least in the $250k/year range.

I wouls assume Steve and the big boys get at least that. So divide 250K but the number of machines... let's say 3000 machines.....that is 80 bucks per machine....

#27 6 years ago

You also need to take into account Tooling costs. This can be quite high for custom parts that are made for the machine.

Tooling for vaccum formed parts can be $2,000 - $5,000 easily.
Injection tooling is quite a bit more expensive that that, sometimes 10-20k per tool.
Some parts are then painted after molding so that is an entire other process, etc.

Pinball Circus had more than 50k in tooling just for the wireforms from the documentation we've seen. It also had at least 5 non-vaccum forming tools.

So tooling can add up very quickly. Of course, spread across several thousand machines it's a much smaller number per machine. But I could easily see $50 or more per machine in tooling costs. Possibly more.

#28 6 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

Rent? Shouldn't they own there warehouse by now?

Let's also not forget depreciation, maintenance, etc. They have to pay to have a webservice. Tax Consultants, Lawyers, etc.

Fun times.

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from MAJRob:

Indirect costs definitely fill up a lot of that gap that you left out flashinstinct.
I may be off, but does Stern have to pay anything for a licensing fee with all these movie/music based pins?

I just added $2 million for licensing... I'm not trying to make a farce out of this....jsut really want to get to the bottom line.... so everyone bare with me here.

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from pkiefert:

You also need to take into account Tooling costs.

It's one million enought?...it's in there....

#31 6 years ago
Quoted from copperpot:

Let's also not forget depreciation, maintenance, etc. They have to pay to have a webservice. Tax Consultants, Lawyers, etc.
Fun times.

Forgot about the damn laywers....

#32 6 years ago

So, people will pay $6,000K for a pinball machine, yet Stern should sell games for $5,200K? I hate that pinball machines are expensive more than most people, but this post makes you look silly.

Quoted from flashinstinct:

Because at $6K all I see is Gary filling is pockets with more cash.

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

So, people will pay $6,000K for a pinball machine, yet Stern should sell games for $5,200K? I hate that pinball machines are expensive more than most people, but this post makes you look silly.

I don't get why trying to find the true cost of a machine makes me look silly. It's a fun exercise!

12
#34 6 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

I don't get why trying to find the true cost of a machine makes me look silly. It's a fun exercise!

Perhaps because you had this in there "all I see is Gary filling is pockets with more cash".

That didn't seem like fun, to me.

LTG : )™

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from iankellogg:

The estimates for labor here are just insanely wrong. 75 working days to engineer the machine? Even if there are no novel toys on the playfield it takes hours to do some fairly simple designs not including the playing time to test layouts.

I think you are partially right in your assessment. I thing i took into account was the some basic stuff can be re-used from other machines.... like flipper location, slingshot location. The gaps between those slingshot arm and the lights don;t change from machine to machine. Same thing goes for the gap between the flipper hole and the lane guide. Even the location of the launch lane and mechs for that rarely change...so it ends up with cost savings in the long run... Now I know it needs to be calculated somewhat because the initial cost to develop these where there at one point...but until they change these drastically cost for these systems have been absorb a while ago.

#36 6 years ago

There's other stuff too. Like, games that bomb like Mustang, those costs are absorbed by their hit games.

Pretty certain they didn't make 3000 Mustangs.

#37 6 years ago

What about risk to the manufacturer? If TWD sucks and no one buys, will you compensate the investors? I don't think Stern falls under "too big to fail," and hence no exceptional government bailouts. You don't get bulk discounts unless you buy in bulk, which means big risk.

And rent. And tax. And insurance (including employee health). And utilities. And funds necessary for future pins. And licensing/inspections by state/OSHA/etc. And inventory for future part replacements. And legal fees (licensing, employee benefits, liability issues). And theft/security/alarms/corruption (unsavory, but probably part of any enterprise this big). And hedge against fuel costs driving up unexpectedly costs of everything. And marketing/sales/expo presence.

And a thousand other things I'm sure I just don't know about.

If making pins was like printing money, there would be a LOT more people making them.

American mid-size, independent, businesses often don't get the respect they deserve. Everyone assumes that if you run a business, you're fricking Bank of America these days.

It's HARD to run a business here. Try making your OWN pins and see.

#38 6 years ago

@ Flashinstinct
Dude. For starters, nobody is paying $6k for TWD unless they're a dummy. Real cost seems to be <$5k. Secondly, you're just pulling numbers out of your patootie.

There is no flat profit per unit at this stage. Stern needs to sell a lot of these just to break even on their development costs. Beyond that there will be profit and good for them.

It stinks they raised price a couple hundred bucks since last year, and maybe $1000 in the last 10 years, but what can you do? What hasn't gone up?

Let's drop this "OMG $6k" nonsense.

#39 6 years ago

I don't know where you get your numbers from but for starters decals in bulk or otherwise cost quite a bit more that your guess. Also Gary should make a lot of money he risks his investment every day by being the owner of a business.

#40 6 years ago

Not saying it's easy...but to get a price increase on the last.....what.... 10 releases......how do you justify that?

#41 6 years ago
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

Let's drop this "OMG $6k" nonsense.

That's all nice and dandy for your folks living in the states where you have dozens of distributors....but in Canada there is really only "one".

So $6.5K is what most Canadians will be looking at.

#42 6 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

I'm a graphic designer...but you are right I don't have to deal with overhead. So how much should I add to the non pinball related employees section?

Heres a rudimentary breakdown of how to calculate indirect overhead costs.

http://m.wikihow.com/Calculate-Overhead

#43 6 years ago

Stern can charge whatever they want for a machine. It is the consumer who ultimately decides whether it is worth the price. Too expensive, and it will drive away sales. Pretty simple. And cost increases are no surprise. Look at the economy and the value of the dollar now in comparison to years ago. I don't want to get into a political debate and get banned, but inflation has been taking its toll lately.

#44 6 years ago

Costs are pretty much impossible to breakdown the way you have. There are so many factors that go into production that calculating an exact number for any operation is near impossible. At the ed of the day you estimate and 'Hope'. Since this isn't Sterns first rodeo, I think they can pretty accurately estimate a machine run cost.

Also I see a lot of this 'greed' being thrown around when it comes to this latest gen of pinball machines. This is not greed. You are buying a 5k+ toy. Its not a necessity. They aren't trying to sell you clean air to breath or water. Stern is simply pricing these machines based off market demand.

#45 6 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

That's all nice and dandy for your folks living in the states where you have dozens of distributors....but in Canada there is really only "one".
So $6.5K is what most Canadians will be looking at.

That is a downer. I meant anyone in the US paying $6k for TWD is a dummy.

The real cost of TWD Pro seems to be the same as ACDC LED Pro and Met LED Pro. The $200 upward adjustment is supposedly for the new cabinet style and LED lighting and seems to be across the board on the Pro line as of August/September and moving foward.

#46 6 years ago

What would it cost Stern to make the MMr machines, if PPS purchased all the materials, and shipped them to Stern?

Did you include the box, foam packing, and pallets?

How much for Jody, Marketing, then service?

Did you assume a 30 day or 90 day warranty?

This is Chicago,should they join the local business club?

#47 6 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

That's all nice and dandy for your folks living in the states where you have dozens of distributors....but in Canada there is really only "one".
So $6.5K is what most Canadians will be looking at.

If that's the case Canadians should take a stand and refuse to buy machines for that price. If the dealer has no demand and high inventory they will be forced to lower prices.

People always complain here about high prices and incomplete code but when the new games' come out they pay the higher price anyway. Just stop buying NIB games if you don't want this practice to continue! As consumers we have a choice.

#48 6 years ago
Quoted from thedefog:

Stern can charge whatever they want for a machine. It is the consumer who ultimately decides whether it is worth the price. Too expensive, and it will drive away sales. Pretty simple.

I think it's partially what happened with STLE.....a $200 drop in the MRSP for the LE shows that....

#49 6 years ago
Quoted from scott_freeman:

What would it cost Stern to make the MMr machines, if PPS purchased all the materials, and shipped them to Stern?
Did you include the box, foam packing, and pallets?
How much for Jody, Marketing, then service?
Did you assume a 30 day or 90 day warranty?
This is Chicago,should they join the local business club?

If you would have read the breakdown everything is there....just need to see if the numbers are correct.

#50 6 years ago

A company that clung to the pinball business at it's decline deserves to reap the rewards of being the only major manufacturer left when there's a resurgence.

If there ever gets to be enough manufacturers to be true competition again, i.e. 3-4 that put out 1+ a year, then we'll see if prices are way out of whack or not. Certainly with more manufacturers there will be heavy competition over the collector's limited dollars.

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