(Topic ID: 12158)

ACDC such high hopes

By RGR

9 years ago


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  • 146 posts
  • 58 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by Hawkeyepin
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#2 9 years ago

Thanks for the report,I like honest,sincere,and it was probably kind of hard to post a report like that,but that is how you feel,and there is no harm in that.
You are not a hater or pissed off about anything,it's just the way you feel,I like it.

Kirk in Colorado-USA

#3 9 years ago

Well, there are dozens and dozens of great pin games out there to discover and enjoy. Not all of them were made in this century. Not all the good ones are on the so-called 'A list' either. I wouldn't give up on pinball just because Stern has been churning out cookie-cutter boredom lately. At least wait and give WOZ a spin...

#4 9 years ago

Thing is LOTR is such a great game... What went wrong????

#5 9 years ago

Don't really think one pin is enough to damn or judge a pinball maker on myself. And I am thankful that one pinball manufacturer stuck around to keep making pins for the last decade. Not sure they deserve all the hate they seem to get from some. To each their own I guess.

#6 9 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

Don't really think one pin is enough to damn or judge a pinball maker on myself. And I am thankful that one pinball manufacturer stuck around to keep making pins for the last decade. Not sure they deserve all the hate they seem to get from some. To each their own I guess.

+1 on that, while I am not a huge fan of the last few stern titles and would not buy them for my home, I will still always play one in the wild.

#7 9 years ago
Quoted from practicalsteve:

+1 on that, while I am not a huge fan of the last few stern titles and would not buy them for my home, I will still always play one in the wild.

It varies so much from player to player, but it's funny because I think that their last few offerings have been great! IM and Tron are modern classics for me, and TF marks a serious return to form for George Gomez.

#8 9 years ago

Hmmmm yeah my comments might be seen as a bit harsh but for me I would rather there be 0 companies making games rather than these cheap thoughtless games being released that insult all the great pins made before them. Its kinda like Rocky. Great film. Then there was Rocky 2 (ok film) then 3,4,5,6 <--- films that were made just to profit from the 1st two... Its just so boring playing the same type of games over and over... whats the point in releasing the same thing???

Now that JJ is here things are looking better than ever before. All the things these guys have said and done is right. I mean come on Gary Stern saying that he wont make wide bodies cos its a special piece of wood yet JJs 1st game is a wide body.. Now that they will be making the Hobbit WOW, this would be awesome to have right next to LOTR.

Like Stern can make great games.... All the SS models and LOTR but where has the attention to detail and quality gone since LOTR. I would like to think that they are struggling due to the market but things like software design is not something that *costs*....

#9 9 years ago

Stern in comparison to B/W sure seems like weak sauce, but like others have noted at least they have been around for the last 10 years. JJP and the new JPOP stuff might not have had the chance to shine if Stern hadn't been here to make Pinball as relevant as it still is today. Stern obviously doesn't have the quality of quantity mantra with its ridiculous amount of average to shitty licensed themed games it produces. Stern still has "enough" quality product to justify itself.

#10 9 years ago
Quoted from RGR:

Ok its just the pro version but for game plays sake it will not be that much different than the LE.

I don't want to sound like a Stern apologist but the code is very early yet so it could still change quite a bit. Haven't played it yet so I can't weigh in.
However, as far as the LE goes, it will obviously be significantly different. The Bell will function totally differently and there is a lower playfield for crying out loud.

If you don't like the pro, fine. But the LE will be a different game. Wait and play; then bring the hate.

#11 9 years ago

Nah I cant see the game play changing dramatically between the pro and the LE... It will be similar to that of TF. The other thing that you reminded me of is that they are releasing games without the complete code.... WTF. This is something that Williams or Bally never did... Just woeful.

#12 9 years ago
Quoted from RGR:

Nah I cant see the game play changing dramatically between the pro and the LE... It will be similar to that of TF. The other thing that you reminded me of is that they are releasing games without the complete code.... WTF. This is something that Williams or Bally never did... Just woeful.

Agree 100%. Fixing a few bugs is one thing, but shipping games with unfinished code as SOP is pretty sad. Stern took the USB EZ-upgrade feature as a license to ship before a game is finished. Sadder still is that people make every excuse for a disappointing game now (like above) by saying it will "get better" when the code is upgraded/finished. And such upgrades are generally looked on as a "bonus" or thing to look forward to now, rather than a reminder that the manufacturer refuses to adjust timing and resources to finish a game before it ships, title after title.

#13 9 years ago

It is strange how we have all accepted buying unfinished games. I mean, would people buy unfinished computer games?

As for AC/DC I loved playing it but only played for 30 mins and my worry reading above comments is that this is a great pin for a quick blast but not sure whether it will have that lastability factor.

I doubt Stern will ever top LOTR but maybe JJP will with the Hobbit?

#14 9 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

It is strange how we have all accepted buying unfinished games. I mean, would people buy unfinished computer games?

They do all the time, unfortunately. There are numerous patches adding content and fixing problems. The star wars knights of the old republic 2 was sold unfinished. The community is currently finishing it now.

Stern in comparison to B/W sure seems like weak sauce...

I was giving Stern a chance to attempt to make a decent game but this is the same as all the rest of them.

This seems sort of silly to me. "Stern" doesn't make the games. The designers and programmers working for Stern do. Read who those people are. Over the last 10 years, we've had Pat Lawlor, Steve Ritchie, George Gomez, Dennis Nordman designing games for Stern. Where do you think they came from? Those guys all worked on the Bally/Williams games you Stern haters love. Software guys that make these rules some of you complain suck? Same guys that worked for Williams (Lyman Sheats, Doug Watson, etc).

On AC/DC and Transformers, Stern actually told the designers "make the game you want to make without concern for cost". Steve Ritchie in his interview stated that even at Williams he never had such freedom. The LE/Premium is the game the designer made. The Pro is the cost cut version Stern's cost cutting team modified. You cant go play the pro then judge the game as a turd.

Of my collection which includes titles like AFM, MM, STTNG, IJ, TOTAN, the games I play most are Ironman, Tron, Spiderman, and Transformers. I'm not even ordering WoZ. There's no well known designer working on that game. Nordman joined JJP after the design was done so his first game will be the next one, whatever that is. You cant just toss a bunch of cool toys on a playfield, intricately decorate them, use parts from a company gone 10 years ago everyone loved, and call it fun. At this point, we have no idea if WoZ will be fun. It might be, but who knows.

Jpop, now at least he has some real credibility behind him making games like TOTAN, CV, ToM. (I did preorder Zombie Attack).

Finally, for those of you constantly complaining about the costs of these new games, they're really no more expensive than those same WMS titles were new. If you take the $2500-$3000 new games cost in 1995 and apply inflation, you get a lot more than the $6500-7000 we are paying now for the premium games. Gas in 1995 was average $1.20 a gallon. Now it's around $4.00. Even if you average it over the last year it's still 3x what it was in 1995. And it's not just gas. Electricity, costs of living, etc all went up. Why do you think new pinballs should stay flat? Owning pinballs isn't something for the average person or the poor.

#15 9 years ago

Did you ever play AC/DC on weeeeeeed?!?

#16 9 years ago

I, for one think that the new Sterns are, at the very worst..... good for a few bucks at the arcade.

And at the very best....have me considering buying NIB.

#17 9 years ago

JJP making Hobbit? Confirmed?

#18 9 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

This seems sort of silly to me. "Stern" doesn't make the games. The designers and programmers working for Stern do. Read who those people are. Over the last 10 years, we've had Pat Lawlor, Steve Ritchie, George Gomez, Dennis Nordman designing games for Stern. Where do you think they came from? Those guys all worked on the Bally/Williams games you Stern haters love. Software guys that make these rules some of you complain suck? Same guys that worked for Williams (Lyman Sheats, Doug Watson, etc).

Ok this doesn't make sense. The designers would be told by Stern what parts to use, how much time to spend on the game etc etc. Don't you think they would have made wide body game by now if they had the option? Clearly working for stern does have an influence on the type of game being released.

Quoted from markmon:

On AC/DC and Transformers, Stern actually told the designers "make the game you want to make without concern for cost". Steve Ritchie in his interview stated that even at Williams he never had such freedom. The LE/Premium is the game the designer made. The Pro is the cost cut version Stern's cost cutting team modified. You cant go play the pro then judge the game as a turd.

I find it ultra hard to believe that Transformers and ACDC were the best that Ritchie could have done without the there being cost involved. How different is STTNG and HS2 from the crap that has been released by Stern in the last 10 years.

You can judge the pro without the LE as the game play will not be greatly different (in terms of modes/ multiball rules) than the pro. Remember I am not judging the cabinet or the sound. Its the game play of Sterns that is just atrocious. All the rules in TF pro (with the exception of starscream and that useless mini playfield) are the same. I mean heck super skillshot?? Lol it goes in the dam hole when you dont want it to.

As for WOZ given all the information that has come out about the game I cant believe that you have not ordered one. This will be a fantastic game. Then you have the hobbit to look forward to.

Ahhhhh I am just loling in frustration at the pic of the metal ramp from Stern... WOW yeah never been done in the past.... Ooooooowwwwww so much innovation.

#19 9 years ago

I am, not a fan of the theme acdc nor would I have one in my house,BUT the game play is very good in my opinion,not as good as SM but still Ritchie flow.

#20 9 years ago
Quoted from The_Gorilla:

JJP making Hobbit? Confirmed?

Well, he has said no to lots of suggestions but never says no to the question, 'are you doing the Hobbit'? So, I take that as a strong maybe

As for unlimited budget - not true. I asked Stern why they are not putting metal ramps in AC/DC like there are in T2 and was told that they are simply too expensive.

#21 9 years ago

RGR, there is so much hate in your posts . Ok you don't like the new stern games. but please accept there are people that do like them. I couldn't get into PotC and Lotr. but I don't bash these games. I know there are people who like them and that is good so.
From all pins i played i like SM the most. But from the layout 24 for me was the best i had. Everybody has an other taste. I liked FT and DH more than T2, TAF and TZ. I have way more fun on my BDK and even on my BBH than I had on my LotR.
From the pictures I know the layout of the AC/DC will be great for me. And the WOZ don't thrill me to play. I wait before I judge it but today there is nothing that would make me buy one.
For me the Multiball Animation of the WOZ is lame and dull. The only thing now that I find good is the soundtrack.

You had no fun playing AC/DC. It is not your game, i have no problem with that.
You could buy a WOZ and have fun with it, I could buy a AC/DC and have fun with it. Everybody could be happy. The only important thing is that we both have fun.

But there is one thing I want to say to you:

Quoted from RGR:

I would rather there be 0 companies making games rather than these cheap thoughtless games being released that insult all the great pins made before them.

This kind of attitude sucks!!!

#22 9 years ago

Yeah it does suck I agree. I wish I never had to make these comments but hey if it was not for the negative feedback for RollingStones then we may not have seen TF. The issue is that sure there are people out there that might like these games, but they could be doing SOOOOO much better. JJ will prove that once and for all when they release WOZ and hobbit.

#23 9 years ago

I wish I never had to make these comments

That's what the "edit" button is for RGP.. err, I mean RGR.

DD.jpeg

Two Valinors in one game and now this?!?
I think it's time to step away from the pins for a while RGR, you've seem to have hit your limit.

#24 9 years ago

lol yeah I do love LOTR.... disappointing what has been released since no???

#25 9 years ago

Gee NP, you're up early??? lol

#26 9 years ago
Quoted from astrodan88:

RGR said:

Ok its just the pro version but for game plays sake it will not be that much different than the LE.
I don't want to sound like a Stern apologist but the code is very early yet so it could still change quite a bit. Haven't played it yet so I can't weigh in.
However, as far as the LE goes, it will obviously be significantly different. The Bell will function totally differently and there is a lower playfield for crying out loud.
If you don't like the pro, fine. But the LE will be a different game. Wait and play; then bring the hate.

exactly. LEs are a different category.

#27 9 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

This seems sort of silly to me. "Stern" doesn't make the games. The designers and programmers working for Stern do. Read who those people are. Over the last 10 years, we've had Pat Lawlor, Steve Ritchie, George Gomez, Dennis Nordman designing games for Stern. Where do you think they came from? Those guys all worked on the Bally/Williams games you Stern haters love. Software guys that make these rules some of you complain suck? Same guys that worked for Williams (Lyman Sheats, Doug Watson, etc).
On AC/DC and Transformers, Stern actually told the designers "make the game you want to make without concern for cost". Steve Ritchie in his interview stated that even at Williams he never had such freedom. The LE/Premium is the game the designer made. The Pro is the cost cut version Stern's cost cutting team modified. You cant go play the pro then judge the game as a turd.
Of my collection which includes titles like AFM, MM, STTNG, IJ, TOTAN, the games I play most are Ironman, Tron, spiderman, and Transformers. I'm not even ordering WoZ. There's no well known designer working on that game. Nordman joined JJP after the design was done so his first game will be the next one, whatever that is. You cant just toss a bunch of cool toys on a playfield, intricately decorate them, use parts from a company gone 10 years ago everyone loved, and call it fun. At this point, we have no idea if WoZ will be fun. It might be, but who knows.
Jpop, now at least he has some real credibility behind him making games like TOTAN, CV, ToM. (I did preorder Zombie Attack).
Finally, for those of you constantly complaining about the costs of these new games, they're really no more expensive than those same WMS titles were new. If you take the $2500-$3000 new games cost in 1995 and apply inflation, you get a lot more than the $6500-7000 we are paying now for the premium games. Gas in 1995 was average $1.20 a gallon. Now it's around $4.00. Even if you average it over the last year it's still 3x what it was in 1995. And it's not just gas. Electricity, costs of living, etc all went up. Why do you think new pinballs should stay flat? Owning pinballs isn't something for the average person or the poor.

A few comments (who would I be if I didn't comment? ):

"Stern" sort of does make the games. I agree the designers, programmers, etc. do the distinguishing work, and that includes a lot of talented people, but they are constrained by budget, standard components (boards, flippers, etc.), and suppliers' materials. (As Gary Stern said, Stern Pinball is primarily in the business of manufacturing.)

AC/DC LE had a larger but still not unrestricted budget. (No metal ramps, cheezy TNT box and cannon, etc.) TF was definitely on a budget! Why do you think there's not a single TRANSFORMING toy in any version of the game?

I think you're a bit off with opinions on WOZ, but time will tell. Joe Balcer is a proven designer, and Nordman was there pretty early (January 2011), well before "the design was done" and had a lot of input. I agree toys don't make a game, but if you're gonna have toys why not have Matt making them? Tough to beat that! Chris Granner is second to none for pin music compositions, and Keefer is also at the top of the game in his area (plus I'm sure he had lots of input into the design as well--he's a serious player). Plus Greg/Jerry as top-notch artists, and (new for pinball!) a real graphics animator in J-P. I'm pretty confident that game will be fun, if not a game-changer.

JPop is indeed a great designer. BHZA could well be one of the all-time great games. There may be more than you expect in that game. (hee hee)

And your inflation comments are pretty accurate. But there's another fact to consider. Pins are not really intended to be just big-ticket toys for collectors. They are commercial games that are made to be put on location and earn money to pay for themselves. (The collector's market alone is not large enough to keep any pinball maker in business.) SO economics comes in, not just in terms of adjusted prices, but also in how much people are willing to pay for games as compared to the cost of new games. Pinball has been stuck at 75 cents for many years now. It was 50 cents per game thru much of the 90's. I suspect most WOZs on location will up the ante to $1/game, with the LCD adding the extra punch to justify the price rise.

OK, bedtime for me now, so I'll stop here...

#28 9 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

OK, bedtime for me now, so I'll stop here...

Goodnight Rick...

#29 9 years ago

The shitty software. When will they learn that a few extra rules, or some balancing will take a may game and make it GREAT.

Quoted from RGR:

What went wrong????

#30 9 years ago

He's disappointed. AC/DC was THE game for a lot of people. Awesome theme, Ritchie, all the hype and time they spent on it. For what? A standard issue fan layout with crap rules and an even worse toy?

I think he was just hoping for a winner.

Quoted from Asael:

RGR, there is so much hate in your posts

#31 9 years ago
Quoted from guymontag451:

IM and Tron are modern classics for me, and TF marks a serious return to form for George Gomez.

I was with you until the TF comment. Still, I think Stern is doing well and hope they continue. As they listened to LE requests and more new toys - now I hope they listen to the deeper code/rules requests.

#32 9 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

He's disappointed. AC/DC was THE game for a lot of people. Awesome theme, Ritchie, all the hype and time they spent on it. For what? A standard issue fan layout with crap rules and an even worse toy?
I think he was just hoping for a winner.
Asael said:RGR, there is so much hate in your posts

Jalpert, yep I am. Considering the build up employing who is arguably the best pinball designer this game is far far from Steve Ritchies other productions. STTNG prob the best game ever made and HS2 just pure flow and energy.... I really think he is bound by a budget. IM, RS and ACDC are so so similar... There has to be a reason.

#33 9 years ago
Quoted from RGR:

Nah I cant see the game play changing dramatically between the pro and the LE... It will be similar to that of TF. The other thing that you reminded me of is that they are releasing games without the complete code.... WTF. This is something that Williams or Bally never did... Just woeful.

www.acdcpinball.com

Model Features & Rules
"Lyman’s writing some great rules! Future updates (“Performance Packs”!!!) are promised,
guaranteeing no unfinished code! Lyman gets to work on it until it is a masterpiece."

"We also have 16 multicolor LEDs under clear inserts in key positions! This means that when the three lane change lights above the 3 lanes are green, the lanes light a lock! When they are amber, they can light Extra Ball! When they are purple, completing them can award an instant multiball! Shots can be many things, and the colors will lead you through what you need to do!"

The Pro is for the pubs, the most people there have never played a pinball, they are happy to keep the ball in play. But how could you judge the rules of the LE by playing the unfinished pro code? I still have high hopes for the multicolor LEDs and the rules of the LE. And the promise of finished code is there, i have no problems to update with the USB.

#34 9 years ago

Hmm stern hasn't made a good game since lotr? REALLY? I mean granted the last few have been cheaply made and I don't care for them (read avatar on, although CSI and 24 are particularly bad) Still you are telling me that
BDK
SM
Elvis
FGY
IM
RBION
WPT

have no redeeming value? Hmm sounds like we got a B/W snob here.

Stern although a terrible company when it comes to finishing what they start and customer service does allow more room for the designers. Nascar would not have happened at Williams. WOF and BDK would probably not have either. Stern may stick to its hardware for too long and it cuts corners wherever it can, but they do try new things with what they have to work with. Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it just sucks.

#35 9 years ago

Another new Stern,another wait for the software post.

#36 9 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

It is strange how we have all accepted buying unfinished games. I mean, would people buy unfinished computer games?

Yes all the time! How many times have you booted up a computer, xbox, or playstation game and you get the message that there is an update.

#37 9 years ago

BDK <--- Useless joker feature and software that was so bad you could manipulate the hurry up to get over 1 billion. Mystery also awards the same thing over and over and over.
SM <--- not a badd game but nothing new here. Poor whinging sounds, annoying DMD graphics.
Elvis <---- Apparently the build quality of the ramps was so bad they cracked at the weld points. I give this game some credit for being different but again its boring to play.
FGY <--- Lol having Shrek thats exactly the same?? Talk about cost cutting. The game lacks flow and shots. The best part about this game is the mini playfield.
IM <--- ROFL really???? Almost identical to ACDC. Similar positioned targets, ramps, jets, bell shot.. Multiball game that is super easy to get to the wiz mode.
WPT: Heaps of targets and nothing else. No rewards for finishing this one. Massive empty area in the playfield...
RBION: More shots than the average stern but again poor wizard mode for the amount of time that it takes to get there.

The big difference with WMS/Bally is their games have character. Sterns SS games do as well an I really like them but theres no humor in their DMDs. Take Wh20, FT, TAF, TZ etc etc what great games these are. All so different to one another and games that have captured the subject so well. For the ultimate comparison, take Stern IJ an Williams IJ.... I rest my case....

#38 9 years ago

This is exactly what type of report I expected from a HATER like RGR !!!

I don't even take his post seriously !

The game might suck and it might be great ? I will decide for myself .

Jim

#39 9 years ago
Quoted from The_Gorilla:

JJP making Hobbit? Confirmed?

God, I hope not!!!!

#40 9 years ago

The game layout was already 80% designed back in 2008 by S Ritchie as a rejected Avatar design. All they have done is to throw the pre-existing design on a theme that they hope will appeal to the primary pinball demographic.

The prints of the rejected Avatar layout were available for sale from his website up until shortly before the marketing for AC/DC ramped up (pardon the pun) when they quietly disappeared from the website.

#41 9 years ago

Curious if RGR owns a single post 2000 Stern pin, or just another WMS fanboy.

Anyhoo, Stern REALLY shoots itself in the marketing foot by releasing incomplete code. Having said that, software companies (especially gaming ones) do this CONSTANTLY. In addition, the Stern rule sets are much more complex compared to what was coming out in the 90's.

The other big "marketing" mistake is rolling out the Pro's first, but it may be more economical for them to get the Pros out first, then followed by the LE's.

Quoted from McCune:

The game might suck and it might be great ? I will decide for myself .

Wouldn't be concerned about his (1 person's opinion) review of the "Pro" version on early code. I don't care for the theme, but the AC/DC LE's are looking pretty awesome.

#42 9 years ago
Quoted from NimblePin:

I wish I never had to make these comments

That's what the "edit" button is for RGP.. err, I mean RGR.

LMFAO




Quoted from NimblePin:

Two Valinors in one game and now this?!?
I think it's time to step away from the pins for a while RGR, you've seem to have hit your limit.

Attachments DD.jpeg (5.8 KB, 1 downloads) 5 hours old

I'll see your Debbie Downer and raise you a Penelope:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/52192/saturday-night-live-penelope-therapy

Where was this guy at our launch party last night where the high score of the evening was 118M? Too funny.

#43 9 years ago
Quoted from pinsanity:

The game layout was already 80% designed back in 2008 by S Ritchie as a rejected Avatar design.

So ?

Jim

#44 9 years ago
Quoted from pinsanity:

selling prints of the rejected Avatar design on his website, which then quickly disappeared once the marketing for ACDC started to "ramp up" (pardon the pun).

Welcome to pinside. Wow that is new information to me. Designers must appeal to the pinball demographic to sell anything. Thankfully we have not seen My Little Pony as some designers personal favorite show up.

Pinball is pinball. You can only change so much. It's a basic principle that makes it play and randomness that makes it a challenge. Ramps, loops, flippers at the bottom, outlanes, etc. I have learned to appreciate the subtleties, which is what a non pinhead would call this stuff, and enjoy some more than others. Can JJP make a change at the basic level? can Jpop? was pin2000 really different? maybe...

I prefer widebody games. Designed by Pat Lawlor. Stern does not make those. They have my second fav designer in Steve Ritchie, and I suppose a rejected Avatar for AC/DC is fine. It was still an original design.

On a personal note, I don't do music themed pins. But I love AC/DC, the band.

#45 9 years ago
Quoted from kmoore88:

Curious if RGR owns a single post 2000 Stern pin, or just another WMS fanboy.

I always wonder about this attitude. If he doesn't like playing new Stern machines in the arcade, why would he spend thousands and sacrifice space in the basement on them?

"I don't like mini vans, so I should buy one to confirm that I don't want it."

#46 9 years ago

RGR , StevenP and Jalbert ,, What a Pack Ya'll make.. You Hate the Best of Title's and down other's.. I'm Personally Sick of Hear-n it..

#47 9 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

kmoore88 said:

Curious if RGR owns a single post 2000 Stern pin, or just another WMS fanboy.

I always wonder about this attitude. If he doesn't like playing new Stern machines in the arcade, why would he spend thousands and sacrifice space in the basement on them?

...meaning, he doesn't like Sterns...never has and never will so don't waste people's time (aka, stir the pot up) feigning to give an "objective" review of a new Stern pin. Just say: "Oh, another Stern title. I hate Stern" and leave it at that.

#48 9 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Owning pinballs isn't something for the average person or the poor.

Unfortunately I have to agree. I've been in this hobby for over twenty years but the last five years it has become a rich man's fad, hence why I'm about to bow out.... Yeah I'm an average person....

#49 9 years ago
Quoted from MrTechnoBarn:

markmon said:Owning pinballs isn't something for the average person or the poor.
Unfortunately I have to agree. I've been in this hobby for over twenty years but the last five years it has become a rich man's fad, hence why I'm about to bow out....

Why? Just because NIB's and a few "A"-listers are thousands of $$$? There are plenty of FUN pins out there that are "affordable".

#50 9 years ago
Quoted from RGR:

The other thing that you reminded me of is that they are releasing games without the complete code.... WTF. This is something that Williams or Bally never did... Just woeful.

This is not true at all.. there are incomplete Bally / WMS Games out there. TOTAN, CV and CP come to mind

I'd also argue that if Bally / WMS were still making pins and they adopted the USB update method (most likely they would), then they most certainly would be doing the same thing.

(I'm NOT saying however that it's the right thing to do)

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