That would actually be fun. Have an annual rating summer tournament like they do on all the wrestling websites (to determine the "all time" greatest, LOL). That would take care of all the "relic voting" (votes from people who haven't logged on four years and never saw games like Tron or AC/DC when they gave MM a perfect 10).

Good idea.

Good point DC....I do like to read the comments that people have on a game more than the actual number itself to get a feel for how it plays....

Come on Jim, lighten up! You've got a wealth of pinball knowledge and skills, I'd love to see your rating comments on all 50 games you've owned....not just AC/DC, try not to take all this crap so personally, we appreciate your input!

I dont he rides a 310 stroked out to a 350 common at least get a saber between your nuts lol. We need to go ride the dunes Jim. My GasGas will give yah a run. I will even bring the klotz and c16

That thing power-valved Jim?

Another issue to consider with ratings is that the top games all have ratings somewhere roughly somewhere between 8.5 and 9.0. Let's assume that there are those that "strategically" overrate as well as underrate a game. Those that overrate a game can only do so with 1-1.5 pts over the other top-rated games. Those that underrate a game can do so by 4-5 pts and still get their ratings accepted. Seems like 1 underrater can easily negate 4-5 overraters. With limited number pins such as AC/DC LE and TRON LE, the effect can be even more dramatic because there aren't as many "normal" ratings to mellow out the effects of strategic over or underrating.

But, that is why you shouldn't get too wrapped up in ratings. If you like a game, play it and/or buy it. I still love my Avatar and it flounders around #114!

_{Post edited by VegasAlleycat : fixed typo}

rating ACDC that low is just a simple tactic by Bally & Williams elitist cloneheads who want
to make sure that their precious machines stay in the top ten and therefore are overvalued.
Honesty is so hard to come by these days......
p

I haven't rated the LE as I haven't played it, but I did rate the Pro under a 7. I just didn't like the game. I don't like the theme and found the gameplay boring. Not everyone has the same opinion, if they did there would be no point in ratings. I realize that there are people that deliberately rated this pin low to take it down in the ratings and that's pathetic, but also some people probably genuinely aren't impressed. Get over it.

I will say that the ratings matter. I use these as an indication of what is a good machine and what is a bad machine. I have no opportunity to play ALL machines, then make a decision on what to buy. I have to gather info, then decide. I wish I could afford to own them all, but almost nobody can afford that (limited space is really the bigger issue). I bought Spiderman recently and have NEVER played it! But I trusted the Pinside ratings! It seems that most of you really like it. That was good enough for me. Please don't mess around with the ratings. Please just rate what you really know. And please be fair. It really matters to me. thx Dave (Spidey arriving next week. Stoked!)

You will not be disappointed in SM,Make sure you have 2.6 game code!!

I'm just glad monster bash got ahead of AFM. I haven't played and certainly haven't rated ac/dc. All games in the top ten have their haters but whatever.

THat's exactly how I feel about those games. What's your point? I don't own an MM either, so I'm not just trying to pump any of those up (unlike you and AC/DC).

If I find a game that I like better than MM or Tron, I'll rate them a 10 and modify how I feel about the other titles. But to me, the games I think are 10's will be rated 10's.

AC/DC with it's unfinished code, repetitive songs (I can't stand AC/DC, so how am I supposed to like the pin?) and just doesn't appeal to me and many others. The title is very narrow IMO. I consider AC/DC to be more like Elvis or GNR, love the band, own the machine, and pump it up. But don't care about the music or band? Zero appeal and the music just stands out- in a bad way.

agreed, MB, IMHO, is much better than AFM!..

SO...it irritates you when it happens to ACDC and you can't wait for it to happen to WOZ? Why not rate WOZ right now then???

+ 7.932

I've been playing avidly since 77.I was on the lookout and playing the newest by the next year even though I was only 9 years old(47 now).So I don't really need the ratings to determine which game I want to own.I've probably played every game in the top 100 at least once including BBB.I still like the ratings though,and for the most part I think they're fairly accurate.It comes down to faith in your fellow pinhead.Here's hoping MOST of us vote honestly and accurately.Scott

You're going to have the same problem to some degree with a playoff system with regards to rankings. Like politics, you are always going to have the people who vote on the following mentality:

"I smelled a MM once and never played AC/DC, so I'll vote for MM," or "I've never seen either game, but this title appeals to me more".

The only real way to attempt to fix it is to make it inconvenient for people to cast bogus ratings by forcing them to make legitimate comments in order for their rating to be applied. Maybe for rating something 3 stars or below? Since the mods are monitoring the voting anyway, if you don't quantify your low rating, your ratings don't get applied. Take TAF Gold for example. Here are two ratings with comments that both gave an overall rating of 2.5:

“this doesn't deserve to be a separate entry in the top 100, simple AFM yellow”

and

“This doesn't deserve to be a separate entry in the top 100, since it is_ an Adams Family (no difference really). This is a protest vote. If I've violated any rules, I'm sorry and will withdraw my vote, but I gave it all Terribles to call attention to the fact that one game is taking up two slots in the rankings.”

I think a big issue is what I refer to as the relic voting. Relic voting is when someone two years ago, who is not even on pinside anymore, created four accounts and gave a single machine all high or all low votes. That guys votes are still in the database and, probably, haven't been reviewed by a moderator in years.

If votes expired every twelve months, forcing people to re-submit their ratings, you have a more current raking system and the person from two years ago that created five accounts would have no lasting impact on the rakings, as he does now (now he has a major impact) . . .

The problem with making someone have to provide comments is there is an easy way around it. All you have to do is put one letter in the field and it will count as being completed. "X" now my rating counts.

OK so you don't like the theme or music and the rules aren't finished. So how was the artwork? the light show? The flow? Sound quality? The dots? Did everything suck so bad it got a 1?

- No I pre ordered WOZ I anticipate it will be a top 10 game and it seems that if any game breaks the top 10 the haters will then push it as far down as possible.

The ratings do matter as they seem to help set the market value for the games. I did rate AC/DC LE a 10. I will rate it again after i've owned it for a bit. It will be unlikely that it stays a 10.

I think the pinside staff made a mistake separating the LE's from the mix. People comment about the LE's with the Pros and the LE is just too limited to warrant a separate rating. As limited as they are I doubt the credibility of anyone rating these games below a 5 as if they spent some serious time on the machine. Plus you get people rating the LE when they only have played the PRO.

Whats going to happen when Magic Girl comes out?

My suggestion would be to require a valid S/N to be able to rate a LE game. This would help solve the problem of the haters rating a game they have never played.

I don't have to play WOZ to know it'll never be a top 10 game for me. No matter how good the game, with a theme that bad it's going to detract a lot from my opinion. The same way you have your mind made up already...

So I will have to crawl over my buddy's pin or one on route and get the SN off it so I can rate it? That will kill the rating system as being too cumbersome and/or only people who own a machine will rate it. Those of course will be biased opinions.

Yes i agree it's equally as corrupt with owners giving solid 10s within a day of it arriving(some even before they played it)

And with everyone saying this or that is certainly a top ten pin...HOW?? WHO DECIDES?? once again its personal opinon on what you like or dont like.

If you want a solid top 100 with games professionally ranked with no nonsense...just see my ladder ratings

Per my post, if there are Mods monitoring the ratings as they indicate they are, this shouldn't be a problem.

I have no idea how much, if any a "ranking" influences price. I also don't know how much you should let it influence whether or not you try/buy a game. IE Current #171 Time Machine. As great as MM or MB or LOTR? No. Is it a crappy pin? Not really. It has a fairly cool concept that is done about as well as you could with 1988 technology. The point, of course, is that this rather lowly pin is actually quite a hoot to play.

If you base your purchases/searches solely on where they rank on this or any other forum, your potential to miss many gems is great.

It seems that worrying about rankings is the flavor of the month (S?) right now. Next month perhaps we can go back to complaining about prices. Or lack of/too much boobage pics.

The LAST thing we need to do is get all bent out of shape over it. So we disagree with ranking numbers. Um...yeah? SO? I don't like your clothes. Do you like my haircut? Chevy? Ford? Chinese food? Pizza? Lager? Watered down American beer? Wine? Wild TURKEY???

If we agreed on everything, how boring would that be?

In closing, if you really have played a machine and really do feel it deserves a really high (for me LOTR) or low (for me TRS) mark, so be it. If you're just beefing up YOUR machine with a 10 or spite ranking it low, you really have issues that need to be addressed that are way bigger than this forum can help you with.

In REAL closing, I lead a rather busy life and outside of my family, I consider many of the members here to be my friends. I hope that doesn't seem pathetic? Regardless, it hurts when my friends bicker over and over about the same dang things. If we are having fun "picking" on one another that is one thing. Questioning each others manhood, faith, intellect or convictions is another. It has gotten to the point that I have almost started my own thread and filled in all of the comments that I know would ensue.

Now please tilt me, call me an idiot, or point out how awesome I am. Just don't fling poop at me.

Right on mate,my DR WHO ranks somewhere in the mid-late 50's on ranking ladder but she comfortably top 10 for ME!!!

You certainly are getting your panties in a wad over ratings. It's just that... ratings. Who cares what anyone else thinks? "go somewhere else"? LOL. Ok. But only if you throw away your AC/DC underoos and grow up a little.

i totally second that

And just so we are clear...I am not faulting you for loving a game that you own and thinking that it is worthy of a high ranking. Truthfully, it doesn't make sense to own games at the bottom of your list..??

My issue is with someone trying to pump up a machine on the charts simply BECAUSE they own it. I expect my argument is silly anyway. But the rest of my points were from the heart. Take care, ya pinheads...

There is the "little sh**" part of me that really wanted to tilt your post. The problem is that tilting with no logic is so out of control that I don't want to add to the confusion even in jest..

I agree TG; I think the motivation behind the high/low ratings do matter. That being said, I really don't believe that most of those that rated AC/DC LE/Premium a 10 did it to simply pump up the ratings. I think they did it because they are genuinely excited and thrilled with their new pin and it now happens to be their new favorite. Will they still rate it a 10 after the newness/excitement dies down? Who knows, but their initial excitement and accompanying high rating is probably genuine.

On the other hand, take a look at all the ratings for the top 200 pins--the lowest rated pin is a 6.833. If there were a top 300 pin list, I suspect the lowest pin would still be somewhere in the low 6's. I'm not saying that everyone must agree with the proud new AC/DC owners (disclaimer: I am soon to be one of them!), but rating AC/DC (or any pin) in the 3-6 range would seem to indicate an epic failure of a pin. Is AC/DC really that bad? I'll go ahead and brace myself now for all the "yes" answers to that question!

EVERYONE does this. I'm the only person I know who's ever admitted that they have owned bad games. (that I enjoy anyway)

I haven't rated this machine, but all the "AC Rules, your favorite games suck" stuff by some of you guys is the very reason why this game got knocked down. Sorry, it was brutal honesty time here, folks.
I wouldn't do this sorta thing. I am a converted stern hater, haven't bought one but am trying. i have a few sterns very high on my list.

I can't wait to play this thing after all the praise it's getting.

Don't you think that all of this will even out over time. It's hard to rank a pin that's been out less than a year when there are tried and true consistent plays on the board. Just like its not fair to rate it a 1, it certainly isn't fair to go across the board with 10's. You should give these pins time and see if they hold up in a few years. That is the true test of a pin. Do you still play it in your collection like you do your favorite Addams...

Given the average rating in the top 200 is 8/10 shows that something is wrong with the way people vote. If I'm given a 1-10 option when rating a pin I will assume that giving it a 5 or 6 means I think it is average out of the pinballs I've ever played but some people will look at that and think I really dislike it. If we are expected to vote all pins between 7 and 9 then why do we even have the other numbers? I've heard some people say "If you love pinball then I don't know how you could vote any table under 5!" which is ridiculous IMO. We are not rating pinball in general but rating tables individually. Ideally everyone's rating average should be around 5-6 and people should only rate them based against other tables they've played and rated.

Here’s your ratings.. note the “I own this one” in your rating also. Give me a break dude. Pot calling the kettle...

AC/DC - 9.96? Really? WIth unfinished code? You own it.
Road Show- 9.44. Wow. good game but come on. Oh wait, you own it.
Johnny mnemonic- 8.588. Kinda high for a “b” title. Oh wait, you own it.
CV- 9.96. Wait for it. You own it.
White Water- 9.8! WOW! great pin, but 9.8? You own it.
TZ- 9.6. Of course you own this one too.
Congo- Own it. By owning it, you must rank it a 9.6 or higher. LOL.
Dr. Who- 9.5. pretty high for that one. You own it, of course.
No good Gofers. 9.5 own it. Not a 9.5 machine.
POTC- 8.5. Lowest ranking for a game you own. But much better than Tron and STTNG since you don’t own them.

Now for your ratings on the pins you don’t own-

Tron - 7.1. Huh?
STTNG- One of the greatest widebodies made. 7.7 for you.
IM- 7.4? Wow, you are just padding the numbers low!! Dr. Who and Taxi is WAY BETTER in your rankings!!

Just trying to make a point.. everyone ranks differently. And there is no doubt, you are padding the #"s on the machines you own. I don't own a MM (can't afford it) so saying I am padding that because I own it is not true.

Every potential turd you own is ranked 9 or higher.

I'll bite on this as well as it has me not wanting to rank any games.

When you own a game you tend to rank it higher and in my case the longer I own it the lower the rankings get. I do re rate them.

My current issue is after owning AC/DC LE and Transformers LE I want to re rate them. For AC/DC I'd give it a 9.2-9.4 for Transformers LE I'm torn as the game is so damn deep its hard for me to rate it lower as though it feels a bit clunky and is no where near as fun as Tron, Iron Man or AC/DC. Transformers LE probably a solid 8.7 overall, though if your looking for a hard game that's probably going to take months and months of playing to beat if even then you can beat it. Transformers is a 10 if you rating it solely based on how long it will take most players to beat it if they ever can.

So with my rant you people ranking games with 2-4's are ruining my rankings as there's not a chance I will change my 10 to a 9.2 because you've already tanked the game to a point where I cannot re rate with my honest opinion as I feel I have to keep my 10 to help negate your pathetic ratings.

Play AC/DC LE 15-20 games and give it a 4. The game is good. I respect those that did not love it and gave it a 6. I have 0 respect for those giving it anything below a 5 as it is a solid pin and not some piece of crap.

Dangermouse. I liked your rankings. I like all your top 10 except Dr. Who which makes me now think I need to get some more time on it.

Cobray,

Iron Man
Stern, 2010
9.484

You give Iron Man which is a great game a 9.484 and AC/DC isn't even a 7? Both games are tremendously fast and have great flow. This is why I have issues as I look at your rated games and we have similar tastes with flow and games discounting Transformers. It certainly seems you just decided to crap on AC/DC for whatever reason. I'm curious if your rating would have been around a 6.5-7.5 if AC/DC had not sat at #1

T_G...I can't see your ratings anymore lol! I thought you had that one pin rated below a three...one dear to my heart...what was it... .

There is also the different perspectives on rating to consider. Some may want their scale to end in a 10, so one pin on the list will always be a 10, the title may change, but 10 is the top of the scale and they use it. This means that if the "10" gets better, no need to rerate, it remains a 10 because it is your favorite pin right now. I personally could not rate a pin under a 5 or 6, but I see how that wastes the scale of the ratings, making my ratings between 6 and 9.84, giving observers a potentially false view of ratings based on mine.

honda350r said:
I got tilted for speaking my mind ? I will tell you what you can do to improve the Tilt system , put the person name next to the tilt so we can have some accountability !
Jim

tilt_accountability.jpg

^^^^^^^ Non contribuiting hater ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I rated acdc pro,I hate the theme,I dislike the music and the back glass art is not for me but I still rated it in the 8's as per the weightings and it deserves it too as it flows great and plays great although I could never own one due to theme.
The point is even if you do not like it you can not deny that it is a good player!

what is there to hate?
I tried the BIBLE it is an awesome machine, don't take it so personally and assume people hate when they dont.

I admit, when all of this ratings whining started, I put mine under ground for a bit since I am apparently guilty of using the whole scale vs the top half of it only. TRS is a less than 3 for me. That game and BBH just piss me off. Not so much as to their game play, more the fact of WHEN they came out. In 1965 they would have been amazing. In modern times I feel they were pathetic.

Anyway, I am back up. Scrutinize away...

I think WOZ is a terrible theme yet still pre ordered the game. I'm with you on the maybe you hate AC/DC music etc.., though its not cool to trash the entire game because the music is not for you.

The game has great flow. I'd really have more respect for a PRO owner bashing the ratings because the damn spring chewed up their play field.

impd.org's current top 10 does not have AFM. So its really missing a game with great flow. All of these games are very very deep games The list is very similar to pinsides top 10 except Transformers is #94 on pinside (because a few clowns tanked it) There is no way Transformers should be at #7 on one list and # 94 on another 10-25 spots maybe but over 80 come on. We know what the problem is. Pinsides rating have become a joke.

Twilight Zone (Bally,1993)
#2 Medieval Madness (Williams,1997)
#3 Star Trek: The Next Generation (Williams,1993)
#4 Theatre of Magic (Bally,1995)
#5 The Addams Family (Bally,1992)
#6 Cirqus Voltaire (Bally,1997)
#7 Transformers™ Limited Edition ("Combo") (Stern,2011) #94 on pinside
#8 Monster Bash (Williams,1998)
#9 Indiana Jones: The Pinball Adventure (Williams,1993)
#10 The Lord of the Rings (Stern,2003)

23. 8.0/10 2012 AC/DC (Pro) by Stern

Since the ratings are just a popularity contest anyways (no way around that..) instead of letting everyone judge how popular to .001, have 3 choices and let it pan out over time.... which is the point of ratings...

1 I would stand in line to play it because I like pinball
2 I would play it if it was open and I'm sitting there anyways because i like pinball
3 Wouldn't play it no matter what because i like pinball and this is an atrocity

and let the average rating do the .001, wouldn't be such violent swings from rating, etc.

The problem is not the haters. The problem is the math.

In the example of TAF or TZ, there are over 10,000 games out there rotating among collectors. Every collector owns one, the other, or both at some point. If not, they certainly find one on route and give it a fair amount of play. 14,000 TZ's out there rotated amongst 3-4 collectors each is a pool of 40-50,000 potential ratings. About 5% have rated it so far and only 5% of those "hate" it. Only 400 TRON LE's already have 119 ratings and 25-30% hate it. That's a full 29% in the first year. AC/DC LE/PREM is suffering the same fate. It has 70 ratings already with about 250 games distributed so far. Almost half the people don't like it? The problem I see is that the games won't circulate the way other games do. I am already suspicious of TRON ratings. What if another 1,000 people rate it in the next year? Really? 250% of ownership? 2.5 people per game? How can the 400 owners battle back if 200-300 people hate on it even if they never played it?

I don't care what anyone says; It does affect the price and demand for a game. That is the sad part.

I'll say this one last time. Weight should be given to a review where a photo of the reviewer is taken WITH THE GAME being reviewed. At least, we would all know the person PLAYED THE GAME. GIVE THE LOCATION AS WELL.

Here are some examples on AC/DC LE:

4.3- "not for me"

3.9- "no desire to play again"

5.4- "I had this on order and cancelled it"

None of these people played the game! I am certain. Just take a photo and prove it or give us the exact location where it was played. That would help me.

Jim

One or two pins being treated unfairly does not invalidate the rest of the list. It's not like the rest of the rankings are completely arbitrary.

Ratings don't mean anything anyway (says the guy with # 1 & 4 ranked pins on the list )

_{Post edited by davewth : profanity}

wow. Is this just for games i review poorly or all of them? It might take some time for me to hunt down 95 examples of the games i reviewed. Does it have to be the EXACT one i played? All of them if i've played more than one?