(Topic ID: 71645)

ACDC (Premium) vs Avengers LE


By PinballJon

5 years ago



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  • 47 posts
  • 23 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by TheFamilyArcade
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 5 years ago

Looking for some opinions on the game play between these two machines. Trying to decide between them and I'm completely split down the middle. Haven't had much time on either game so I'm looking for opinions to help me make up my mind.

Thanks,
Jon

#2 5 years ago

It's not even close Jon. I've owned (and enjoyed) both.
ACDC without a doubt, hands down.
Somewhat frustrating, but an awesome rush when things go right.
Amazing multiball action.

#3 5 years ago

Should never be a VS on those two. A. ACDC is the must have but B. they are opposite ends of the game play spectrum.
You should have both ; )

#4 5 years ago

I always find it ironic when avengers is put "vs" another pin. That's because their are "vs" modes in the pin.

I own AC/DC prem and AV Pro.

I'd love to help you out but you really can't compare these two pins. They are 100% different types of games. Layout is completely different, one is a mode based game, the other is a score based game.

AC/DC is a great pin. AVLE is a great pin too (once dialed in). This is truly one of those that you have to ask yourself what type of player you are and go down that route.

Or, if you aren't stuck on the Prem and LE you could probally get both in the pro model for about the same price. Both are better in the LE version's but both are still really fun in the pro version.

Really tough call on this one. If you look at my history you will see I had the same struggles. I wound up with both so I'm not going to be much help

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

I always find it ironic when Avengers is put "vs" another pin. That's because their are "vs" modes in the pin.
I own AC/DC prem and AV Pro.
I'd love to help you out but you really can't compare these two pins. They are 100% different types of games. Layout is completely different, one is a mode based game, the other is a score based game.
AC/DC is a great pin. AVLE is a great pin too (once dialed in). This is truly one of those that you have to ask yourself what type of player you are and go down that route.
Or, if you aren't stuck on the Prem and LE you could probally get both in the pro model for about the same price. Both are better in the LE version's but both are still really fun in the pro version.
Really tough call on this one. If you look at my history you will see I had the same struggles. I wound up with both so I'm not going to be much help

Interesting points. Which one would you say is more mode based?

#6 5 years ago

I have and like both, but ACDC is a keeper

#7 5 years ago

ACDC by a mile. Not even close.

#8 5 years ago

AC/DC has a proven layout, but feels too similar to many other games. Great rules and sound. A real eyesore to look at. Premium/LE is the only way to go. Pro feels too barren without the proper bell swinging and mini-playfield.

Avengers' layout is unique, spinning toy can't be found on too many games, Hulk bash toy w/ magnet is great. The cab is pretty ugly on both LEs imo, but a lot of people like the Hulk for some reason. The added ramp, drop targets and lifting ramp don't justify $2000 more than the pro in my book. LE/Premium is also much easier because the drop targets on Thor slow the ball way down and make it easier to control shooting him, in addition to the left flipper being fed from the added ramp from a easy shot (Hawkeye), as opposed to only being fed from a very difficult shot on the Pro (Black Widow). Entirely a mode based game, won't score or do well without entering them.

My AC/DC pro didn't last here for more than a few months and I never see myself getting another one (Pro or Premium). My Avengers Pro has been here much longer and barring a good trade deal on it, I don't see it moving. If it did leave, it would be replaced eventually with another pro unless I found a Premium/blue LE at a very cheap price ($5K).

I'd choose Avengers LE over AC/DC LE, but I'm probably in the minority on that one. Would choose Avengers Pro and another $2000 pin instead of the Avengers LE. Probably a T2, since it has a near-identical layout and main toy (cannon).

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballJon:

Interesting points. Which one would you say is more mode based?

Neither one, really - they're both unique in that way.

In AC/DC, each song is a "mode" with its own song jackpot goals...and when you hit 8 of the "song related shots" you can hit the jukebox and choose a new song "mode" (or not & stick with your current song).

In Avengers, it's kind of like Monster Bash - each shot represents a character...shoot it enough time and it starts their "mode"...but it's more like a "scoring feature" - and it stays active till you complete it - it's not timed. Then once you do that - hit that character shot a bunch more times to start a Vs. mode - which always start as 2-Ball multiballs.

Neither game has a traditional "hit scoop, start timed mode, complete, get set up for next mode" thing.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballJon:

Interesting points. Which one would you say is more mode based?

Avengers is much more mode based. I owned both, still own acdc. But that's not to discredit AVLE. It really is a blast to play; great rules, fun layout, 6 ball mb is awesome! But, I had a couple bad days with my AVLE and sold it on a whim. The game is hard to keep dialed in. But boy, when it's dialed, it's a blast. I may own it again someday - but only at the right price and right mindset knowing the babysitting that comes with it. I had a 4 mo old baby at the time of ownership with AVLE so my patience level wasn't the greatest at the time

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballJon:

Interesting points. Which one would you say is more mode based?

Rarehero describes it best in actuality. Now how I feel when playing it is different.

To me AV feels like I'm going through a game trying to beat it. When I hit the start button my goal is to get to and complete attack of the helicarrier (haven't beaten it yet) or get to the the final wizard mode. For AC/DC, when I hit the start button my goal is to beat _____ score. I don't go for encore as I don't think it's remotely possible for me to get there.

In my oppinion if you don't care about score then AC/DC isn't for you. If you do then you can't go wrong. My problem is it took me forever to get to the point to where I was OK with my objective being to beat a score. Due to that AC/DC was almost the door after a couple month. I stuck to it and am glad I did as I really enjoy the pin now. If I had to get rid of one of my pins I would give them both up and buy an AVLE (remember I have AV pro) as it "fits" me better than AC/DC.

With these two pins you have to find out what "fits" you best. If you did a poll I'd bet a lot of $$$ AC/DC would win that battle. That doesn't mean though it's the best pin for you.

#12 5 years ago

I own both and have enjoyed both a lot. But as others have said, they are very different type of games.

I would sell you both of mine, HUO MINT condition if you are interested. I live in Western, NC.

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from cscmtp:

I own both and have enjoyed both a lot. But as others have said, they are very different type of games.
I would sell you both of mine, HUO MINT condition if you are interested. I live in Western, NC.

I appreciate the offer! My intentions were to sell my SM and use the money to buy a NIB Avengers LE, but there's been a lot more interest in trading than buying unfortunately. I got an offer for a straight trade on ACDC Premium, and that's where I stand.

I appreciate all of the responses. I've been wanting Avengers since the beginning, and I still want Avengers more...but I haven't played ACDC much and I'm seeing all over that it's a really good pin. Plus, I'm bored with Spidey and really want something new to play and I'm getting antsy! LOL

#14 5 years ago

They are side by side at my house. AVLE for me if I can only have one. I know Im in the minority. I prefer the shots and the progression of the game through the rules. Doesn't piss me off as much as ACDC, even though AVLE kicks my ass too.

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballJon:

I appreciate the offer! My intentions were to sell my SM and use the money to buy a NIB Avengers LE, but there's been a lot more interest in trading than buying unfortunately. I got an offer for a straight trade on ACDC Premium, and that's where I stand.
I appreciate all of the responses. I've been wanting Avengers since the beginning, and I still want Avengers more...but I haven't played ACDC much and I'm seeing all over that it's a really good pin. Plus, I'm bored with Spidey and really want something new to play and I'm getting antsy! LOL

Reading this if you go with AC/DC over AV I think you will be disappointed. Not because I think you wont like AC/DC but because I feel you'll always second guess yourself. If you have always wanted one or the other then I strongly feel you should get that one.

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballJon:

My intentions were to sell my SM and use the money to buy a NIB Avengers LE, but there's been a lot more interest in trading than buying unfortunately.

If you do go the Avengers route, getting a used one thats been tinkered with is a no brainer

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from Eskaybee:

Avengers is much more mode based.

....but it's kindddaaa not...sorta. It's progression based...story based. You're working toward a goal - Assemble the Avengers, complete the Vs. modes, get to the mini-wiz and wiz modes. But when you start a "mode" or character, there aren't really a bunch of shots to hit like you'd normally get in a traditional timed mode - you just shoot that shot more times to progress.

On the other hand - while AC/DC isn't traditionally story-mode based...you are encouraged to shoot shots all over the place, specifically and strategically, which IS more like a traditional game...only it's not lol

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

....but it's kindddaaa not...sorta.

But it kinda sorta is more so than acdc. I understand what you're saying but it feels more mode based than acdc. Even though it's a story/quest type game

#19 5 years ago

the one you kind of sort of like better not.

#20 5 years ago

Just finished two MONSTER games back to back on AVLE. 257M...but not enough to get my friend MBT's GC score off my game. So despite just having a long, draining game, I hit play again. 4 completed Avengers later (was also one shot away from completing Helicarrier), I post a 450M, my second best score ever. The B/W ramp was even giving me grief...

Nothing satisfies like some Avengers!

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

I post a 450M, my second best score ever.

Well done man or as my wife says 'ya done good, kid'

-1
#22 5 years ago

Acdc ALL DAY. Don't even think about it.

#23 5 years ago

You have picked two of my favourite machines to compare!
I own both, and enjoy each of them.
They are very, very different games.
ACDC Premium has flow, not so Avengers LE.
Trapping the ball with the flippers is essential with Avengers, less so on ACDC.
ACDC is the easier game, Avengers takes greater skill and is much harder.
ACDC has 4 ball multi-ball, Avengers 6, but 6 adds little to the game.
I keep going back to both, for different reasons.
I enjoy ACDC more the longer the game goes, but if Avengers forthcoming code's upgrade will include more excitement at the Assault on the Helicopter mode and beyond, then it might achieve greater heights than at present.
ACDC is red, my Avengers is blue (the Hulk is my least favourite Avenger so I went for the better looking machine despite what others think, although I am pleased Gary Stern prefers the blue one), both are great to look at, both are keepers.

If I was only able to keep one of them, which one would I choose? ACDC, no question, but that's because it is a truly sensational game.

The bigger question is deciding between ADCDC Premium, Avengers LE,

and …

Star Trek LE!

#24 5 years ago

Ackadacka!! LE

#25 5 years ago

Nice comparsions between the two games guys. I own an AC/DC premium and love it, but I just watched the Avengers movie over the weekend (yea I know I am late to the game), and loved it! Made me start to thinking about an Avengers pin.

#26 5 years ago

Its a theme question here, both good games but r u a big AC/DC fan if not don't bother same for Avengers. Avengers LE doesn't get a lot of love but I really enjoyed it and only sold due to the theme, the call outs are as bad as Xmen. ST LE if you can get one is the way to go.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from Av8:

Acdc ALL DAY. Don't even think about it.

Well, since you bought both pro and premium ACDC I'd expect that answer! The only problem with your answer is the "don't think about it" part. Unless you added the words "just play them both and decide".

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

the call outs are as bad as Xmen.

No way...nothing even remotely compares to the awfulness of some of the Xmen voices...and even the decent ones are just blabbering about nothing. Yes, Avengers has fake voices and some don't sound like the movie actors, but most of them are well acted and a good majority of it is related to the pinball machine. I'll take "HULK never get to wizard mode...Hulk only get TILT!" over "Oh. My. Stars. And. Garters"

#29 5 years ago

I'm going to be in the minority. I have AC/DC Prem right now. A buddy bought one and it's at my place for another week. I also have an Avengers LE.

I won't miss the AC/DC. It's a fun game and when everything goes right, it's a blast; however every game starts to feel the same -- at least to me. You select a song, hit the lite shot a couple of times, then start hitting the lite shots which are every single shot on the playfield to build up the cannon shot (jackbot). This is true regardless of song, so it starts to feel same-same to me. It's fun to tie the song with an appropriate multiball or two. And it's a blast to get the 2x or 3x playfield multiplier going, but....I don't know....the game just falls flat for me. Cann't really explain it. It's a game I will enjoy on location, but see no need to own.

I love Avengers and it gets alot more love from my guests, my sons, and their friends. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I really enjoy it. It's taken a fair amount of tweaking to get it right, but it's almost there. I changed the rules, so getting the Avengers is easier so I'm seeing more vs modes. I think this made a big difference.

Price on Avengers LE is continuing to come down and they can be bought for a reasonable cost. I think an Avengers LE is going to be about $1,500 less than an AC/DC premium. I recommend the LE over the Pro. I think it's a much better game and, with the prices going down on the LE, you are probably looking at $1,000 more than a Pro. In my case, it was less than that, but I got an exceptional deal and I'm really pleased with it.

Cheers,
Duane

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from TwilightZone:

I think an Avengers LE is going to be about $1,500 less than an AC/DC premium

AC/DC Prems are ~$6000 ...you think Avengers LE are gonna be selling for $4500? I don't think it's gonna get that low. I mean, I guess I'll find out if/when I sell mine...but I think I'd rather keep it then sell it for that low

#31 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

AC/DC Prems are ~$6000 ...you think Avengers LE are gonna be selling for $4500? I don't think it's gonna get that low. I mean, I guess I'll find out if/when I sell mine...but I think I'd rather keep it then sell it for that low

You're probably right. In Canada, I see AC/DC Prem selling used for $6,500. Avengers LE is in the $5,200 to $5,500 range, I think. Several Avengers LE sold in the high $6K and more in the last few months (this is all local), but not sure how easy it would be to sell right now. I think some titles are bound to come down in the next year. And I think the Stern LEs are going to get hit the hardest. There are just too many options in the $5K to $6K range. Time will tell. Hope I'm wrong as I have the Avengers LE, of course, but I did get a smoking deal and I don't see it leaving for a long time. The kids and I really love it.

Cheers,
Duane

-1
#32 5 years ago
Quoted from TwilightZone:

You're probably right. In Canada, I see AC/DC Prem selling used for $6,500. Avengers LE is in the $5,200 to $5,500 range, I think. Several Avengers LE sold in the high $6K and more in the last few months (this is all local), but not sure how easy it would be to sell right now. I think some titles are bound to come down in the next year. And I think the Stern LEs are going to get hit the hardest. There are just too many options in the $5K to $6K range. Time will tell. Hope I'm wrong as I have the Avengers LE, of course, but I did get a smoking deal and I don't see it leaving for a long time. The kids and I really love it.
Cheers,
Duane

The thing w/ the Stern games is you have to take all versions in context when it comes to resale...I think they'll all kind of fluctuate together. So - if a Pro sells for X, a Premium should sell for X+ and a LE should sell for L++. We forget that there's an Avengers Premium - even though there don't seem to be any in this particular forum community.

#33 5 years ago

Some very interesting points everyone. Thanks for all the input, especially the explanation of the rules. That's the main thing I was looking for when I made this post and you guys were a big help! After reading these I'm pretty sure if I have to pick between the two I will choose Avengers. If anyone wants a SM let me know and I'd be happy to trade!
I'm definitely more of a mode person, and I think it's safe to say that, out of the two, I'll be happier with Avengers in that aspect. Also, I originally wanted a NIB, but now I'm OK with trading for a "non NIB".

Thanks again,
Jon

#34 5 years ago

Buy both

louis avengers 008.jpg
#35 5 years ago
Quoted from Darth_Chris:

Buy both

louis avengers 008.jpg 182 KB

Agreed! Buy both and help push back "Peak Pinball"!

#36 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

No way...nothing even remotely compares to the awfulness of some of the Xmen voices...and even the decent ones are just blabbering about nothing. Yes, Avengers has fake voices and some don't sound like the movie actors, but most of them are well acted and a good majority of it is related to the pinball machine. I'll take "HULK never get to wizard mode...Hulk only get TILT!" over "Oh. My. Stars. And. Garters"

Quite right, I've never owned an Xmen so I'm unaware as to the full extent of cheese.

#37 5 years ago
Quoted from Darth_Chris:

Buy both

louis avengers 008.jpg 182 KB

How's that blue display? One of the first things I want to do is get a blue display, but I wasn't sure how bright they were. Any suggestions of which one to get?

#38 5 years ago

I bought the stern blue dmd. Lot more expensive than the xpin but I like it very much. Really complements the Blue Avengers. I also bought a blue filter which I strongly recommend.

-2
#39 5 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Well, since you bought both pro and premium ACDC I'd expect that answer! The only problem with your answer is the "don't think about it" part. Unless you added the words "just play them both and decide".

I was trying to be nice to Avengers owners. But hear goes.

Avengers is the worst Stern I ever played. Poor shots. No flow. Trapped balls. Jam Fest. Blocked Thor targets. Wtf? Plasticky feel. Shooter ramp problems. Gomezs worst design I played. Ramp Rejects. And annoying call outs that aren't even from movie. JM is better by 10 times. I haven't even gotten to the rules.

Just watch the YouTube videos.

Don't think twice about it.

#40 5 years ago
Quoted from Av8:

I was trying to be nice to Avengers owners. But hear goes.
Avengers is the worst Stern I ever played. Poor shots. No flow. Trapped balls. Jam Fest. Blocked Thor targets. Wtf? Plasticky feel. Shooter ramp problems. Gomezs worst design I played. Ramp Rejects. And annoying call outs that aren't even from movie. JM is better by 10 times. I haven't even gotten to the rules.
Just watch the YouTube videos.
Don't think twice about it.

Disagree with much of this. Poor shots? Or hard shots? I don't find HE, CA, IM, or BW shots to be poor, but are hard and require precision. I never have trapped balls once tweaks are made. The game has flow, you probably just can't make the shots to see it. It doesn't have the flow of xmen, but its there,BW-->IM. Shooter ramp problem requires a tweak, not a big deal. Ramp rejects don't happen on pro, which i have. The rules are actually pretty good once you start getting into the VS modes and the game has some of the best light shows out there. I actually like many of the callouts, they aren't from the movie, but don't see how that makes it a bad game. Stern probably should have fixed some of these issues before releasing it, but they aren't a big deal.

Played last night and hit 205 mil, just shy of my 211 high, multiple VS modes, really a lot of fun. Btw, for those that harp on quality, I've had mine since January, play it all the time and nothing has broken on it!

I wish I had an opportunity to play ACDC, I'm sure it's a blast too, can't go wrong with any of the newer sterns!

#41 5 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Rarehero describes it best in actuality. Now how I feel when playing it is different.

To me AV feels like I'm going through a game trying to beat it. When I hit the start button my goal is to get to and complete attack of the helicarrier (haven't beaten it yet) or get to the the final wizard mode. For AC/DC, when I hit the start button my goal is to beat ____ score. I don't go for encore as I don't think it's remotely possible for me to get there.

In my oppinion if you don't care about score then AC/DC isn't for you. If you do then you can't go wrong. My problem is it took me forever to get to the point to where I was OK with my objective being to beat a score. Due to that AC/DC was almost the door after a couple month. I stuck to it and am glad I did as I really enjoy the pin now. If I had to get rid of one of my pins I would give them both up and buy an AVLE (remember I have AV pro) as it "fits" me better than AC/DC.

With these two pins you have to find out what "fits" you best. If you did a poll I'd bet a lot of $$$ AC/DC would win that battle. That doesn't mean though it's the best pin for you.

Agree with this post entirely. I own both and he and Rarehero nailed it. I will say - AC/DC Premium will never leave my house. You get an extra adrenaline rush with the music in AC/DC (especially if hooked up to external sub woofer) that's hard to explain unless you play it. Really solid combination.

One other thing. The ramps in AC/DC are a bit similar to the ramps in SM from a flow and return perspective. But a SM for AC/DC Premium straight up trade is sweet on your end. Good luck

#42 5 years ago

I have both games and as far as Rierman's post above, we are in total agreement on Avengers ( must be a New Jersey thing). Anyway, part of AVLE's experience is the tweeking. I have spent several hours working out the bugs and that does not bother me at all. TZ had to go thru a lot of similar tweeking issues by operators back in the day as well. The important thing is the problems can be worked out and the game is very good after that. I still have a few tweeks to go, but, it is getting close. People putting down a game on these forums hurts the price of the game resale and that can either be a bonus or, a curse depending on which side of the purchase you are on.

As far as the two games, they are different from a strategy stand point, but , both have great light shows and with upgraded sound are a blast to play.

I must admit the small survey so far shows more avengers support then I would have expected.

#43 5 years ago

Others have done a great job of responding to your post. I just want to add one point others haven't mentioned and that's in response to the flow.

The flow on the LE is fantastic. The Hawkeye ramp really improves the flow of the game and one of the reasons I recommend the LE. I find the Hawkeye ramp diverts the ball where I need it. If I need a BW shot, for example, to start Hulk MB, the ball gets directed to the left flipper. If I'm working on Loki MB and it will leave it to the right flipper.

I really, really like the game. I thank Pinside for talking it down. I got a great deal and very pleased with it. I have had to fuss with it to make it perfect and it's not quite there yet, but the results will be worth it. All I have left are the Thor targets and a small adjustment to the bridge ramp.

Like I said earlier, I know I'm in the minority. AC/DC Premium will be leaving next weekend. I don't think I will miss it. It's a fun game, but not one I need to own.

Cheers,
Duane

#44 5 years ago

Playing Avengers feels like work. While it may have "flow," it's not as fast or exciting as the flow on Acdc.

Acdc provides a rush or thrill each time I play it. There is no other pin out there that provides the depth of strategy and "rolling the dice, and can lose it all" feeling that the song jackpot does on ACDC. There's also the thrill and pressure of trying to get, extend, and cash in on 2x/3x play field scoring.

But unless you're an A player, you're not going to see Encore. AV wizard modes, or at least mini wizard mode, is much easier to get to, but doesn't provide the thrill that skillfully planning and earning a 200+ M triple song jackpot during Album or Tour multiball does in Acdc.

Bottom line: there are MUCH better mode/quest based pins out there than Avengers. There is no better thrill-seeking high score topping, deep strategy scoring, non-linear pin out there than Acdc.

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from Av8:

I was trying to be nice to Avengers owners. But hear goes.
Avengers is the worst Stern I ever played. Poor shots. No flow. Trapped balls. Jam Fest. Blocked Thor targets. Wtf? Plasticky feel. Shooter ramp problems. Gomezs worst design I played. Ramp Rejects. And annoying call outs that aren't even from movie. JM is better by 10 times. I haven't even gotten to the rules.
Just watch the YouTube videos.
Don't think twice about it.

What evs. You mean the you tube videos of the borked game in the crappy bar near the stern factory? Within a month of release? There's some videos by SKB that rock. If I made one of the way my game plays it would look awesome.

For whatever reason I've owned a lot of Gomez games. LOTR, TFLE, JM, AVLE, and a dialed in AVLE can hang with all of them. We know you don't like it.

If I were to take the feedback on ACDC one month after it was released and left it at that (11 months or 2 years later) here's what you'd get:

*F%#king canon blocks the right outlane!! Wtf!?
*What the hell is up with the dirty lower playfield window? Looks like someone blew smoke in between two panes of scratched plexi!
*WTF is up with this canon? It loads up two balls and then gets stuck! It won't fire either of them!
*Man that Angus face in the middle of the playfield just ruins it.
*These rules are BS! What a boring game. If a game is going to have a rehashed layout from the 80's the rules need to be excellent. Epic fail here.
*Jesus, this canon sure is borked. My motor just up and died! Have to get a new one from stern...has this happened to anyone else?
**Yes me too...rinse repeat hundreds of times
*Hey, has anyone else's lights been blowing out? I've now had about 20 different Cointaker LEDs just but out on me? Some twice in the same socket?
**Yes, me too....rinse and repeat HUNdREDs of times.
*Can't believe Stern makes games with these 555 bulbs for the GI....it's glass off very game or replace a popped LED!
*Anyone else getting airballs from the drops? Shit, really annoying.

Get the point yet?

#46 5 years ago

Why not do the trade for.the nib AC/DC, play it a while, and then offer it in trade for an Avengers LE. The AC/DC currently sells for more, so I'm sure someone would trade with you down the road, that way you would get the best of both worlds, you get to play the AC/DC for a while to see if you like it, and if not you will get your Avengers without losing any cash. I would make the trade. I have an AC/DC premium, and really like it, it was my first nib pin. I am thinking about thinning my collection out, and maybe picking up an Avengers. I like the new Sterns.

#47 5 years ago

This is a sound suggestion. SM for ACDCPremium is a damn good trade. I let my HUO SM with shaker and LEDs go for a solid price earlier this year....but not as much as a Prem is worth. Should then be able to trade for AVLE later on.

You can practice up on ACDC, then, when you think you're ready to hit the curve, graduate to AVLE.

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