(Topic ID: 44818)

AC/DC - How do I level this thing to avoid STDM from the Bell?

By RacerRik

11 years ago


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  • 129 posts
  • 33 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by grh450
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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There are 129 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 11 years ago
Quoted from RacerRik:

That is not what he said! So of course, you have an opinion about what the best pin is I guess?

Hahaha I'm just busting balls. And apparently so is smassa....

Quoted from smassa:

Hardly a credible source since you had such a huge man crush on TF LE.....

Rofl. Everyone has their moments.

But in all seriousness I can't dub ACDC my favorite of all time quite yet. It's there...it has all the tools; but I'm going to sit and play it for another 6 months before I give it that godly title. My current title for favorite of all time still belongs to LoTR (another smassa fave! ). But LoTRs title may fall to ACDC or....AVLE even. But again, gonna wait a few more months before I decide. Exciting times for my own personal favorites as LoTR has held this title of mine for approx 6 years.

The more I play these great sterns, the more my B/W favorites get chopped down the totem pole. Which is probably why I have the B/W itch. Now if I was only in a hurry to go get one (or two) dam you ACDC/AVLE!

#52 11 years ago
Quoted from flashburn:

Top, center, bottom.

Flashburn, still wanting to know where you checked level on your AC/DC so I can duplicate the results. I used the bottom of the mini-playfield window as a reference point for the center of the game, but I don't see any reference points for a bottom measurement or top measurement.

#53 11 years ago
Quoted from RacerRik:

Flashburn, still wanting to know where you checked level on your AC/DC so I can duplicate the results. I used the bottom of the mini-playfield window as a reference point for the center of the game, but I don't see any reference points for a bottom measurement or top measurement.

Sorry, got distracted.

For the top, I was able to use right above the lanes, it's not perfectly in the center, but you are just looking for it to be level from side to side, so it's not a big deal. Middle, obviously the very center of the playfield over the window is completely open. And bottom right at the top of the flippers.

I guess one thing we are forgetting is that these machines are assembled by human beings, and as such, can vary from machine to machine. So things might not behave the same from one machine to another, even if they are seemingly setup the same.

#54 11 years ago

Which is probably why I have the B/W itch.

AFM yes. The rest..dont do it. I would rather have TFLE than MB or Totan. Depending on Sterns next couple I may find one again. AFM is right there with ACDC and TAV though. More basic but there. The rest are old games.
This may help with drains off the bell.

IMG_0606.jpgIMG_0606.jpg IMG_0607.jpgIMG_0607.jpg

#55 11 years ago

The SDTM's on this game were driving me nuts so I moved the stainless steel guide, below and to the left of the Bell, over to the left. I just enlarged the mounting holes to give some wiggle room. This gave the ball more "bounce" off the post just below it. Fairly transparent mod. The rubber on the post doesn't have to be over-sized and look like an obvious alteration. I noticed my AFM gives this "bounce" straight from the factory (Ball Lock lane). Williams vs. Stern = better design, more testing at design time.

#56 11 years ago
Quoted from flashburn:

For the top, I was able to use right above the lanes, it's not perfectly in the center, but you are just looking for it to be level from side to side, so it's not a big deal. Middle, obviously the very center of the playfield over the window is completely open. And bottom right at the top of the flippers.

What I was really looking for is what you used to align your level to make sure it is sitting exactly 90 degrees from the playfield center axis. For example, by using the bottom edge of the window, I can assure the level is at 90 degrees. Above the flippers, I don't have any reference point to make sure the level is square to the sides of the playfield.

You realize that if the level is not exactly square to the sides of the playfield, it won't give a true reading, right?

#57 11 years ago
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:

AFM yes. The rest..dont do it. I would rather have TFLE than MB or Totan. Depending on Sterns next couple I may find one again. AFM is right there with ACDC and TAV though. More basic but there. The rest are old games.
This may help with drains off the bell.

I tried that post too but it's too big and makes the bell shot a tar harder. The stardard post available from pinball life with a cliffy sleeve works perfect.

#58 11 years ago
Quoted from RacerRik:

What I was really looking for is what you used to align your level to make sure it is sitting exactly 90 degrees from the playfield center axis. For example, by using the bottom edge of the window, I can assure the level is at 90 degrees. Above the flippers, I don't have any reference point to make sure the level is square to the sides of the playfield.
You realize that if the level is not exactly square to the sides of the playfield, it won't give a true reading, right?

Oh, I gotcha, yeah I know what you mean. I had reference points on the playfield obviously. The top lanes are aligned, easy enough, I used the horns for the top, and the lane guides for the bottom.

#59 11 years ago

I hope I don't have this issue but I won't be changing post and adding rubbers. I want it to be brutal and play it as the designer intended. Plus my high scores will be legitimate ones

#60 11 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

I've experienced what you're going through as well. I have a torpedo level, and had it on the PF to set the game. A local champ winner levels all his games like they do at tournaments; bubble level on the glass, at the lockdown bar, back of the PF, and top of the back glass.

The tournaments I have run and have helped at have leveled the games on the play field, not the glass.

#61 11 years ago
Quoted from smassa:

I tried that post too but it's too big and makes the bell shot a tar harder. The stardard post available from pinball life with a cliffy sleeve works perfect.

I ordered the sleeve and post today from pinballlife. I'm about 20% SDTM, less so if I nudge aggressively. The spring arm pre-installed on the Pro helps.

#62 11 years ago
Quoted from Mudflaps:

I ordered the sleeve and post today from pinballlife. I'm about 20% SDTM, less so if I nudge aggressively. The spring arm pre-installed on the Pro helps.

Get rid of that. I've heard it's scratched some people's play fields.

#63 11 years ago
Quoted from smassa:

Get rid of that. I've heard it's scratched some people's play fields.

I took it out when I got the game based on what I read here. However, my build date was January 2013, and the spring arm had a plastic washer beneath it to protect the playfield. Stern may have altered the spring in later runs, I'm not sure. I re-installed it after a ton of SDTMs with no ill effects so far on the clearcoat.

#64 11 years ago

Is this like the avatar spring?

#65 11 years ago

Lean it slightly to LEFT. Mine rarely drains. This helps it to hit the rubber and bounce away.

Also STEEPER is better with ACDC. 7 degrees at least. Helps with outlanes and trapping the ball. Try it. The game plays like crap when too flat. Both Pro and Premium.

Also I would NOT do this big post rubber! It blocks one of the best shots in the pin.

Good luck

#66 11 years ago

I bet your pin is too flat. ACDC plays like crap when its too shallow. Go really steep and then flatten it until it plays great.

#67 11 years ago
Quoted from Mudflaps:

I ordered the sleeve and post today from pinballlife

Which parts are those. I will try it out.

-1
#68 11 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Wrong.

It *will* do that. But obviously not all the time. Maybe 15%?

What? In your cross thread you said this is never a problem and that you had never seen a SDTM drain before.

#69 11 years ago
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:

Which parts are those. I will try it out.

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=323
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1322

It's worth $4 to try out. You need a small screw for the top of the post. It may be a keeper, or I may try it out and decide it's not worth it. We'll see

#70 11 years ago

Shot of the spring arm on the Pro. Hard to see, but there's a washer under the spring.

image.jpgimage.jpg

#71 11 years ago

Ok, I put the larger rubber on at the bell exit, and this made a big difference. The ball no longer bounces out hard, so it comes down more often to the right flipper. It also made the exit for a slow ball much better. I recommend everyone does this.

#72 11 years ago

A ring or a post sleeve?

#73 11 years ago
Quoted from PDXGeek:

What? In your cross thread you said this is never a problem and that you had never seen a SDTM drain before.

Read in context! I never said I don't get SDTM drains from hitting the bell!! I said the problem that I don't have is SDTM drains directly from the pop bumpers.

#74 11 years ago

Thanks AV8 for your helpful and specific advice. I now think I have it working pretty well. Just played a game and had quite a few bell shots and maybe one of them came back STDM. I call that fair enough. No changes to play field posts or rubber.

I set the pitch to exactly 7 degrees. To get it perfect I machined a wood block to an exact 7 degree wedge. I then used a precision torpedo level on the wedge. Turns out 7 degrees corresponds to the Stern bubble level reading with the bubble just touching the top line.

I set the side to side level at 1/32 of a degree tilted to the left but test playing that was not to my liking. I could tell from the game play that the playfield was favoring the left side. So back to the drawing board I leveled it side to side and then added 1/6 turn out to each right leg thus making it barely tilted to the left. This moved the bubble on my torpedo about the width of the indicator line - not much.

As far as leveling the game left to right in general, I start by measuring the botton of the cabinet front and rear and get those perfectly level. Then I check the playfield indexing the bottom of the mini-playfield window. Turns out the playfield is not perfect to the cabinet as I originally thought. It is off about 1/16 of a degree. I then adjust both front and rear legs on one side the same amount by counting rotations until I get the playfield to the level I want.

I know some of you said you check level multiple places on the playfield, but I sure do not see any way to do that accurately. I can't see any way to index the level square to the playfield which means I cannot take an accurate measurement any where other than the bottom edge of the mini window. Please feel free to enlighten me if there is some other spot you can measure and index.

Just to confirm my theory, I tried moving the level slightly off the index to see how it effects accuracy - and it is significant. Moving the level (which is 9" long) just 1/8" off the line at one end, changes the measurement by about one index line in my level. So if you cannot index the level perfectly, you cannot take a usable / accurate measurement. I still think that those who are not having STDM problems lucked into a good level setting which is in reality not perfectly level.

Sorry if I wrote a book on this, but I thought it may help others who are frustrated with the STDM drains.

#75 11 years ago
Quoted from RacerRik:

Thanks AV8 for your helpful and specific advice. I now think I have it working pretty well. Just played a game and had quite a few bell shots and maybe one of them came back STDM. I call that fair enough. No changes to play field posts or rubber.
I set the pitch to exactly 7 degrees. To get it perfect I machined a wood block to an exact 7 degree wedge. I then used a precision torpedo level on the wedge. Turns out 7 degrees corresponds to the Stern bubble level reading with the bubble just touching the top line.
I set the side to side level at 1/32 of a degree tilted to the left but test playing that was not to my liking. I could tell from the game play that the playfield was favoring the left side. So back to the drawing board I leveled it side to side and then added 1/6 turn out to each right leg thus making it barely tilted to the left. This moved the bubble on my torpedo about the width of the indicator line - not much.
As far as leveling the game left to right in general, I start by measuring the botton of the cabinet front and rear and get those perfectly level. Then I check the playfield indexing the bottom of the mini-playfield window. Turns out the playfield is not perfect to the cabinet as I originally thought. It is off about 1/16 of a degree. I then adjust both front and rear legs on one side the same amount by counting rotations until I get the playfield to the level I want.
I know some of you said you check level multiple places on the playfield, but I sure do not see any way to do that accurately. I can't see any way to index the level square to the playfield which means I cannot take an accurate measurement any where other than the bottom edge of the mini window. Please feel free to enlighten me if there is some other spot you can measure and index.
Just to confirm my theory, I tried moving the level slightly off the index to see how it effects accuracy - and it is significant. Moving the level (which is 9" long) just 1/8" off the line at one end, changes the measurement by about one index line in my level. So if you cannot index the level perfectly, you cannot take a usable / accurate measurement. I still think that those who are not having STDM problems lucked into a good level setting which is in reality not perfectly level.
Sorry if I wrote a book on this, but I thought it may help others who are frustrated with the STDM drains.

Do yourself a favor & just buy the post from pinball life & slap a cliffy red post sleeve on it & be done with it. Its less then a $10 dollar fix, No other adjustments required. Having the game steep makes its play better & helps with the outlane drains. All that other stuff is a waste of time.

#76 11 years ago
Quoted from smassa:

Do yourself a favor & just buy the post from pinball life & slap a cliffy red post sleeve on it & be done with it. Its less then a $10 dollar fix, No other adjustments required. Having the game steep makes its play better & helps with the outlane drains. All that other stuff is a waste of time.

I don't have a problem with adding a Cliffy sleeve and post - but I don't have one on hand. I want to play the game now! I waited a long time for it and I don't want to just play it and be frustrated. So I solved the problem with precision leveling.

You may say the other stuff is a waste of time, but leveling the cabinet should be something every pin owner does. I have never seen anyone describe the procedure, so I wrote it up here. If you don't start with a level cabinet front and rear, the cabinet and probably your playfield are twisted. That is a bad thing and can cause signifcant problems over time like warped playfields.

If there is a another method some of you use to level the cabinet please feel free to share it. And how many of you have actually leveled up the cabinet? Just wondering if this is common knowledge or not?

#77 11 years ago
Quoted from RacerRik:

I don't have a problem with adding a Cliffy sleeve and post - but I don't have one on hand. I want to play the game now! I waited a long time for it and I don't want to just play it and be frustrated. So I solved the problem with precision leveling.
You may say the other stuff is a waste of time, but leveling the cabinet should be something every pin owner does. I have never seen anyone describe the procedure, so I wrote it up here. If you don't start with a level cabinet front and rear, the cabinet and probably your playfield are twisted. That is a bad thing and can cause signifcant problems over time like warped playfields.
If there is a another method some of you use to level the cabinet please feel free to share it. And how many of you have actually leveled up the cabinet? Just wondering if this is common knowledge or not?

Well ya thats the 1st thing I do after I set up a pin in its spot where i'm gonna play it. Just use a bubble level on the lower & upper play field. Nothing is more annoying to me then playing a pin thats is obviously not leveled correctly.

#78 11 years ago
Quoted from smassa:

Well ya thats the 1st thing I do after I set up a pin in its spot where i'm gonna play it. Just use a bubble level on the lower & upper play field. Nothing is more annoying to me then playing a pin thats is obviously not leveled correctly.

I don't think you are getting my point. You cannot square up the cabinet by checking level on the playfield. You gotta measure the cabinet front and rear as in put a level up to the bottom of the cabinet box down below the coin door and at the back between the legs. The playfield may or may not be in a twist even if the cabinet is way out of square.

If the cabinet is square and the playfield has a twist in it, you need to start looking for bent hooks in the front of the playfield or something binding and not letting the playfield drop all the way down.

By the way, this game is way more fun when you can shoot the bell without draining almost every time. I am getting 3X multipliers almost every game now and my points are shooting up!

#79 11 years ago
Quoted from RacerRik:

I set the side to side level at 1/32 of a degree tilted to the left but test playing that was not to my liking. I could tell from the game play that the playfield was favoring the left side.

1/32 of a degree off of level isn't noticeable. That's a miniscule amount. What are you using to measure?

#80 11 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

1/32 of a degree off of level isn't noticeable. That's a miniscule amount. What are you using to measure?

I wanted to go what I thought was a small amount. Turns out 1/32 of a degree is not that small at all - at least not in terms of an effect on pinball travel. If you do the math ( sin of 1 deg * 24") it turns out the one degree of tilt is almost 1/2" difference across a 24" game. ( I guess you can probably tell I am an engineer.....) So cut that in half 5 times (2 to the fifth power is 32) and you get about 1/64" side to side difference for 1/32 of a degree.

The leg bolts are 3/8-16 thread so there are 16 threads per inch. One turn is therefore equal to 1/16 inch. 1/2 turn = 1/32" and 1/4 turn equals 1/64 inch. So, level the game perfectly ( and I mean perfectly!) then go 1/4 of a turn on the legs on one side of the machine and you have 1/32 of a degree tilt.

I found 1/6 of a turn to be sufficient to reduce the STDM drains without affecting the perception that the game is still level.

The level I am using is a precision torpedo level. Keep in mind that all levels are not equally sensitive or accurate. It depends on the design of the fluid tube. A very shallow angle taper in the tube makes for a sensitive level. That makes it good for precise measurements but makes it a pain to use for general plumb work since the bubble wants to easily go to one side or the other - if that makes sense.

#81 11 years ago
Quoted from NathanP:

Chad's constantly drained, whereras sealclubbers does not.

Not constantly but enough that I avoid that shot unless in MB.

#82 11 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

Not constantly but enough that I avoid that shot unless in MB.

Mine constantly drained before. Now it only drains once in a while - maybe 5% of the time. So there is hope to make yours better. It sure makes the game funner when you don't have to avoid that shot. The bell shot is arguably the most satisfying shot on the game.

Have you guys hit it so hard the bell taps the glass? I have once, and it was cool but made me wince thinking "I hope I don't break this dang bell...."

#84 11 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

get a premium, problem solved.

???? Mine is a Premium. Not sure what you are saying...

#85 11 years ago
Quoted from RacerRik:

I wanted to go what I thought was a small amount. Turns out 1/32 of a degree is not that small at all - at least not in terms of an effect on pinball travel. If you do the math ( sin of 1 deg * 24") it turns out the one degree of tilt is almost 1/2" difference across a 24" game. ( I guess you can probably tell I am an engineer.....) So cut that in half 5 times (2 to the fifth power is 32) and you get about 1/64" side to side difference for 1/32 of a degree.

The leg bolts are 3/8-16 thread so there are 16 threads per inch. One turn is therefore equal to 1/16 inch. 1/2 turn = 1/32" and 1/4 turn equals 1/64 inch. So, level the game perfectly ( and I mean perfectly!) then go 1/4 of a turn on the legs on one side of the machine and you have 1/32 of a degree tilt.

I found 1/6 of a turn to be sufficient to reduce the STDM drains without affecting the perception that the game is still level.

On paper, I'm sure all your numbers add up. In real life, you're way, way off. Get a digital level and you'll see. As an engineer, I would think you would would appreciate a tool like that. Accurate to 1/10 of a degree, self calibrating and only $25. With 10 games, you really should have one.

#86 11 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

Not constantly but enough that I avoid that shot unless in MB.

Its a risky shot but if you set it up properly its a shot worth taking when you can feed the right ramp for a pop shot at the bell. The only way your ever going to score consistent huge Song Jackpots is if you can take pop shots at the bell even while in single ball play and nudge enough to keep the ball in play.

#87 11 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

On paper, I'm sure all your numbers add up. In real life, you're way, way off. Get a digital level and you'll see. As an engineer, I would think you would would appreciate a tool like that. Accurate to 1/10 of a degree, self calibrating and only $25. With 10 games, you really should have one.

Ha! You sound like the guys at the tire place when I tell them how I use simple tools plus math to do my own wheel alignments on my car. Sometimes computerized, whiz bangy tools are no better than good old fashion tools and a bit of ingenuity.

By the way, I have had the tire guys insist there was no way I could be as accurate as the computerized, laser alignment system - so they put the car on their rig and guess what - I had it perfect! They did not know what to say about that...

#88 11 years ago

Steve Ritchie recommended steeper about a year ago. My bubble is cut in half by the top line. Plays awesome.

No modding required other then removing the spring on my Pro.

#89 11 years ago

Wow - if your bubble level is reading the same as mine, you must be at about 8 degrees slope. That is very steep! I have not tried it that steep yet.

#90 11 years ago

My bubble is centered and I have not made one mod in regards to the Bell. I have nowhere near the amount of SDTM balls the OP has. I'm with Rob. Level it and keep playing. It is a high risk shot and a lot of factors will determine how the ball comes back at you. If the Bell its the ball on the down swing, the chances increase. Also if the ball goes into the saucer behind the bell and is ejected as the ball is swinging and never touches the bell.

Learn the game and minimizes those risks. At first this is a very difficult game, and part of the fun is mastering the risks and the best way to approach certain shots.

#91 11 years ago

A ring or a post sleeve?

I used a black post sleeve.

Read in context! I never said I don't get SDTM drains from hitting the bell!! I said the problem that I don't have is SDTM drains directly from the pop bumpers.

So easy to light your fire, I love it!

Got encore for the first time last night. Pretty fun mode, but I was definitely tired of playing when it was all over. Markmon suggested just farming the ramps over and over to simplify the game, and he was right. Beat each song while in multiball to reduce risk of missed shots, and you can progress pretty quickly.

IMAG0014.jpgIMAG0014.jpg

#92 11 years ago
Quoted from RacerRik:

Sometimes computerized, whiz bangy tools are no better than good old fashion tools and a bit of ingenuity.

Sometimes, yes. In this case, when you believe 1/32 of a degree adjustment can be noticed by the player, you're way, way off. I use to be an old school guy too. I used a torpedo level and an $8 protracter for years. The only reason I bought the digital level is because I had a 25$ gift card for Sears and couldn't think of anything else to buy. Now, I can't imagine leveling a pin without one.

Here's an engineering question for you: What do you suppose a digital level might say on it's display when you first turn it on? Think about it before you answer. It's sort of a trick question.

I see you've taken to the internet. Shouldn't you be using paper and pencil instead?
d

#93 11 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Here's an engineering question for you: What do you suppose a digital level might say on it's display when you first turn it on? Think about it before you answer. It's sort of a trick question.

This provokes some interesting thoughts. Makes me wonder what the device calibrates too for a known 0 first. What level did you buy?

#94 11 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Here's an engineering question for you: What do you suppose a digital level might say on it's display when you first turn it on? Think about it before you answer. It's sort of a trick question.

Quoted from PDXGeek:

This provokes some interesting thoughts. Makes me wonder what the device calibrates too for a known 0 first. What level did you buy?

No fair reading the manual before you guess what it says when you turn it on. I paid about $25 for mine in a store.

#95 11 years ago

This reminds me of an old joke which i can't remember completely - something to the effect of "What does the clock say? Answer - Nothing, you have to read it...."

Anyway, my guess would be the level would say something about calibrating when you turn it on...

#96 11 years ago

maybe it's this run for bell issues. I remember playing premiums earlier and they didn't get knocked out as much as the one I just opened. Maybe it's hanging to low and stops the ball to a dead stop. Remember the first run of Premiums, it would blast through and get diverted more often. This run, not so much. Is the height of the ball adjustable? I havn't dove into it yet.

#97 11 years ago

Most of the time, mine smacks the bell and the ball comes back out the way it went in. If the bell is already swinging, the ball will go under and get diverted. Or if you really blast it up there ( as in a live shot - not a shot from a captured ball), the bell smacks the playfield glass and the ball goes under.

#98 11 years ago
Quoted from RacerRik:

Most of the time, mine smacks the bell and the ball comes back out the way it went in. If the bell is already swinging, the ball will go under and get diverted. Or if you really blast it up there ( as in a live shot - not a shot from a captured ball), the bell smacks the playfield glass and the ball goes under.

exactly what mine does. But the ones i've played before this, wasn't as much. Your bell about 1/4" off the playfield?

also, anyone else having the cannon plastic hit the ball when it's moving back to position? Must be aimed downward and catches balls in multiball.

#99 11 years ago

Just set up my new premium. Awesome. Not getting quite as many SDTM off the bell as highlighted above but it is brutal fast. Am trying to confirm that I've got the pitch dialed in. I've used both the craftsman digital level as well as an iphone app, and both are saying I'm at about 6.6 degrees between the flippers and 6.8 midfield, but the Stern built in bubble is pressing against the top of the tube. I know those are notoriously off, but even in a NIB? Am just second guessing because with the carpet/floor I have, my back leg risers are pretty much completely maxed with the front ones all the way in.

#100 11 years ago

I haven't seen it drain from the bell. I haven't gotten to play a lot though.

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