Quoted from beelzeboob:I have. But because I love pinball, it's still not a 1. Better than no pinball at all...
Yeah.... we’ll have to disagree on this one. If someone said I could only own and play TB, I’d pass. I’d never play it, opting for more exiting entertainment pastimes, like watching paint dry or counting raindrops.
That game is, without a doubt, a 1.
I agree something is off with the top 100. Street Fighter II should clearly be the number one pin and its a travesty that it's not even on the first page of rankings. Come to think of it... have I even rated that game?
Quoted from SWfan:Not even close to the same execution or impact, let alone gameplay.
I wasn't claiming that Star Wars Premium invented the idea, but the execution and effect is on a totally different level than those two games.
Buddy has SW le. Have owned Nascar. Have had a fair bit of time on HSII.
Execution and effect is less than nascar. I really don't get your argument. Its a neat toy that has been done multiple times.
How about a "Hot or Not" system? Just pair matches and select which is better? Seed the list with games people have in their collections, tagged in posts, or have submitted score for?
Quoted from 1963BSARGS:You should spend some time on the Brunswick pins from the late 70’s.
Uncle Pinball has to weigh in on this one in detail!
Episode #54 - Brunswick's Alive!
Better than some commercial machines I've played, certainly better than Zizzles. And I added a drop target to mine!
I mean, the game spells out OUCH on the displays when you tilt! How can you not like that?
$549 in 1978 dollars!
Why does anyone care about this thing? Not like it’s the officially sanctioned by all nations international official list of the best pinball machines. It’s just a gimmick on one of 50 billion websites.
I think one problem is the people who don't think SW should be #2, running out and giving it straight 1's across the board. If you truly don't think SW deserves the #2 spot, then go ahead and give it a full and fair rating. Not just a 1. Go through and fully rate the game in all aspects. Maybe it comes out a 4 or 5 or 6. Whatever the final number is, it will still bring down SW's ranking, but will do so in a legitimate way.
It just seems silly to downrank a game intentionally b/c you don't like it being ahead of other certain games. If you give the game a fair and true ranking, then that's all you should do. Anything else is just petty.
Quoted from irobot:Rating systems like this are always flawed.
They're completely subjective and they depend on voluntary ratings, so you're only getting a small, skewed data sample.
I remember back in the 1990s some cinema magazine did a poll and "The Shawshank Redemption" was rated #1.
Because... it had come out a year or two earlier and it was a popular movie. You think it would still top the list today? Is it really THAT good? The BEST movie ever?
ALSO, most of the ratings are going to be from people who only played the game a few times. Sometimes you have to play a pinball game for a while before you "get it."
I bought an TAF for myself and a CV for my wife. That's what we both wanted. Now she camps out on the TAF and the CV is my "go to" pin.
But when we first got them, I hated CV so much that I was literally disgusted with it, I thought it was a flat waste of money.
She did not like the TAF because she had never seen the movie and didn't get all humor and nuance of it.
The point is, a pin rating by someone who played a game 3 times isn't much of a rating.
ALSO, some of the best pins are so rare that very few people really know them.
For example, I have a Bally Atlantis that everyone LOVES. It's a just an old-school smash the ball around game, it plays with a VERY satisfying, zippy flow. A real fast-playing game. And it has great non-PC artwork from the days when the USA was a fun place. But it's a simplistic 80s pin so it's ignored in the ratings.
Pinballs with a lot of fancy features get better ratings than pins that are fun to play.
AND, it's pretty obvious that some people are rating their pins really high in an effort to make their collection seem more valuable. If someone gave Bally Atlantis all "10s" and says, "It's the BEST PINBALL EVER EVER EVER", is that an honest rating? Probably not.
Moral of the story: take it all with a grain of salt, it is what it is.
Yeah, Shawshank holds up for me. sooooo.....
Quoted from haveaniceswim:I never heard of the guy, so I took a look. I don’t think I can rely on his ratings, since MM (consensus #1 pin of all time) is #465 on his list, behind at least 100 EM machines that are IMO unplayable, because who would play an EM if a SS, even a bad SS, was available?
TOM (#1 rated game on IPDB) is #769 on his list, behind Baby Pac-Man and Granny and the Gators, and I assume at least a couple of gumball machines with flippers.
He downgrades both MM and TOM because of “scoring imbalance”. Not sure why that would knock a game down 400-700 spots, but hey, balanced scoring must mean a lot to c2s. His comments seem to be directed at tournament players, which I am not.
I’m looking for fun, not balanced scoring, so MM and TOM are in a perpetual battle for the #1 spot on my list.
This is why I re-review many pinball games. Sometimes things change and sometimes I am wrong. I am good with both because that is when I learn. Since this mention is focusing on MM I will reply with this game in mind. Medieval madness has been re-reviewed, twice. Unless a new version of the software comes out (@soren, can you help a pinhead out?!?) the scoring issue stays the same. The rest of the review is almost all 6’s across 5r board. The reason this game does not have 6’s is because of the said rules imbalance. All the sub6 scores on this rating are related to the effect that the rules have on this game design. If the games rules do not support the brilliance of the design, I will score them accordingly. This makes me wonder, did you even read what I wrote? Or did you dismiss what was said because you didn’t like the less than ideal score? If you did look at my review page, did you notice that there are no 10’s?
When I review a game I play it (some times there are multiple versions of the same game. I do take into account rule differences if they are present) and I pay as much attention to the rules as I do the playfield layout. Today, games are REQUIRED to have viable competitive rules or the game will not pass muster on the street. The influence of Competitive pinball means that games are now expected to have adjustments, polish tweaks and in a few cases complete re-writing of a game’s code if needed. This has been brought to us by brilliant competitive pinball players like Lyman Sheats, Keith Johnson and most recently, Keith Elwin. Earlier designers that were competitive players that made a difference like this in the early SS era are Steve Kirk and Jon Norris. Many of both Steve and Jon’s game are now being sought out by players due to this influence on their rule sets. Before, as long as a game didn’t have a flaw that kept it from earning on the street, once the game was out the door, the code was set and the team moved on to the production cycle. Keith Johnson in particular set the standard at stern with over a dozen revisions of code for a single game.
EM games are an older breed. Lots of people do not “get” EM games or dismiss them. Competitive players will call them “luck boxes”, but that’s usually when they lose on them. The pinball games of today are fast and furious in relation to older games. Just like older cars, airplanes and a whole bunch of other technologies. I enjoy older games for a number of reasons. A great EM game (Gottlieb El Dorado for example) will keep you coming back. I know this because I operate pins too. And in my EM locations (because I am that crazy), El Do always has the heaviest coin box! EM games will require techniques that are valid on both older and newer designs. I gather a greater appreciation of newer games and I also see how much the new games of today stood on the shoulders of previous pinball design giants. EM games are boring? Go find a collector who knows what’s up and go play some pinball with him. Observe, ask questions, learn. This was one of the best things about pinburgh. Banks of 4 games with a modern SS, early SS and an EM plus one more of the previous 3.
And every year I’d hear players complain about having to play older games. You are playing at pinburgh and all you can do is whine and complain... really?
Older games will hone your defensive playing skills. You will be able to anticipate more. You will see danger further up the field. You will develop techniques to defend from farther away from your flippers. On a game like 8 ball deluxe, firepower and many other games of that vintage or earlier, there are no safe shots. Successful shots are never fed to the inlanes with a ramp guiding the ball to a safe trap with certainly. Every unsuccessful and successful shot puts the ball in danger. Some people will complain that older games are too slow. Maybe for them. But some people like a slower game. Some of my favorite pinball moments were at parties I had at my home sharing my collection and seeing a grandfather playing a game with a grandchild at the same time. Right in the feels I tells ya!
There are lots of good reasons to collect and play EM games. They are relatively cheap. If they are complete, you can fix them. Inter webs learnin’ resources and parts are available on your wonderphone and home ‘Puter. The artwork is of another time when people’s tastes and sense of humor was different.
If you want to have fun, have fun. Try a tournament. Try a league. Start in the least experienced division and don’t care if you win or lose. But celebrate when you do. Make some new big kid friends and learn how to play more skillfully. Put that action in your bag of tricks. Before this plague hit us, I’d have potlucks at my home. Everyone had fun and only played when and what they wanted to. If they played at all. If you want to have fun playing MM with a competitive player, play a dollar game. Play for twenty dollars, heck, play for a nickel. It changes the game when the “stakes” are on the line. You may change the rules. Someone plays one handed, someone plays for a goal (start a multiball) someone plays for 2 balls and someone plays for 3. No you don’t have to compete. But I do want you to have fun. Heck I want everyone to have fun. And while I do have a prism that I see pinball through, I do so sight reason and intent. I adjust the sliders on my rating values higher for fun, playfield design and rules and lower them for say... cabinet art. These are just my opinions. But I want to make them the best I can. I want them to be honest and sincere about the playing experience in the hope that others can find what they are looking for in their own games. Sometimes I have difficulty quantifying what that is. I have to go with what feels right and of quality.
Go play what feels the most satisfying to you. For me, that game is Twilight Zone. I love the game. I love the theme and I am STILL finding new things, details, minutiae that just keep on giving since it was made in 1993. Don’t believe me, take a good look at the shot layout and flipper position on Iron Maiden. That’s right, iMaid is TZ with flow. Pat Lawlor’s game was so good, it had a baby! So if you want to, expand your pin-horizons. Play some games you didn’t think of and you might find something in there that you like. If you don’t, you still played pinball. Consider going to the pinball hall of fame in Vegas (post-covid), there’s a couple hundred EM games for you to try. If you play a couple hundred EM games and can’t find one you like, that’s your preference. Personally, I love them and I am more likely to find an older game that I have not played before as compared to a new one coming out today. To this, I have a little saying “If I play a pinball game I have never played before, automatic good day!” Go travel on a pinball adventure to a location/ museum or a pinball convention that is at least a few hours away when travel is safe again.
And if we ever do meet and if you aren’t careful, I’ll take that hundred dollar bill on the lockdown bar from you while playing Medieval Madness with a beer in my other hand... 
With much pinball-love,
c2s
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:And if we ever do meet and if you aren’t careful, I’ll take that hundred dollar bill on the lockdown bar from you while playing Medieval Madness with a beer in my other hand...
With much pinball-love,
c2s
[quoted image]
Believe me or not, I wasn’t criticizing your reviews. I was noting that you and I have very different priorities in pinball playing so I wasn’t sure I could use your reviews which came highly recommended.
I have no doubt you would take my hundred playing me one handed as I am a casual player who marvels at the skills of better players. I know what’s fun to me and MM and TOM (and TZ and TAF for that matter) are the games I find the most fun. I played EM’s before SS came along, but once Pin*Bot came out I found I couldn’t play an EM if there were any SS in the same Area Code.
No hard feelings I hope.
Quoted from TreyBo69:If people can’t even give Thunderbirds a 1 then why bother with a ten point scale?
Is 1 supposed to be “no pinball”? That makes no sense with a scale. That’s a zero
I don't get that logic. 1 is supposed to represent something that is absolutely terrible with practically no redeeming qualities, while 10 represents a game that is almost flawless. If there were only three pins in existence, say, PinBot, Twilight Zone, and Wizard of Oz, you wouldn't rate one of them a 1/10 for being the worst of the three, since they're all fantastic.
Quoted from mystman12:I don't get that logic. 1 is supposed to represent something that is absolutely terrible with practically no redeeming qualities, while 10 represents a game that is almost flawless. If there were only three pins in existence, say, PinBot, Twilight Zone, and Wizard of Oz, you wouldn't rate one of them a 1/10 for being the worst of the three, since they're all fantastic.
That’s an absurd simplification. There are hundreds of games to rate.
But even if there were only 3, one would be at the bottom and one would be at the top. And that’s ok...
I don’t get why people get so upset if someone genuinely wants to criticize something or accuse them of not really liking pinball
Different opinions and all that jazz. I’m not going to argue with what people like (I may ask them about it, just to hear a different perspective)
Ratings are subjective, not objective. I’m going to grade things the way I feel about them.
Quoted from mystman12:1 is supposed to represent something that is absolutely terrible with practically no redeeming qualities, while 10 represents a game that is almost flawless. If there were only three pins in existence, say, PinBot, Twilight Zone, and Wizard of Oz, you wouldn't rate one of them a 1/10 for being the worst of the three, since they're all fantastic.
Quoted from TreyBo69:even if there were only 3, one would be at the bottom and one would be at the top. That’s just how rankings work.
Ranking and rating are different. If we use a rating scale mystman12 has proposed they are right, everything can be a ten. If you use a ranking scale then something has to be the lowest and something the highest.
Slight tangent, watch for that kind of misleading presentation when you're looking at charts or statistics. If someone wants to present something as very bad they sometimes use a scale that puts 'the thing' at the very bottom but if you investigate you'll find the scale used only makes it appear bad when in reality all the things were pretty close.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Ranking and rating are different. If we use a rating scale mystman12 has proposed they are right, everything can be a ten. If you use a ranking scale then something has to be the lowest and something the highest.
Slight tangent, watch for that kind of misleading presentation when you're looking at charts or statistics. If someone wants to present something as very bad they sometimes use a scale that puts 'the thing' at the very bottom but if you investigate you'll find the scale used only makes it appear bad when in reality all the things were pretty close.
And I feel like a scale should reflect the spectrum of worst to best. You are rating things like cabinet art relative to every other game.
One of them would literally be the worst of all time, one the best, and the other would be somewhere in between.
Quoted from haveaniceswim:Believe me or not, I wasn’t criticizing your reviews. I was noting that you and I have very different priorities in pinball playing so I wasn’t sure I could use your reviews which came highly recommended.
I have no doubt you would take my hundred playing me one handed as I am a casual player who marvels at the skills of better players. I know what’s fun to me and MM and TOM (and TZ and TAF for that matter) are the games I find the most fun. I played EM’s before SS came along, but once Pin*Bot came out I found I couldn’t play an EM if there were any SS in the same Area Code.
No hard feelings I hope.
Not at all. I do try to be thorough with my reviews and I take them seriously enough to explain the how and why of what I do. I know, too much seriousnesses. My hope was to create a response that advocates for pinball of all vintages. I am open to criticism and have even addressed specific games by other members. But sometimes, after review of a review. The review stands.
On a side note, Pinbot is a favorite Oursler design of mine and I miss playing it in the collection. But more than anything, I'd ask you to do what you love to do. And if that is to play pinball as you deem fit. Do that. If that means something old or something new, or more of what you know and love... do it!
If you ever head to CO, let meet know. I am happy to show you around.
c2s
IMG_20201231_184528229 (resized).jpgQuoted from Caucasian2Step:I do try to be thorough with my reviews and I take them seriously enough to explain the how and why of what I do.
Long before I ever joined Pinside I was reading your reviews as my buying guide. No where near me to try before I buy.
I for one appreciate all the time that you have spent reviewing games.
Thank you for saying this. I sincerely appreciate it. It also makes me realize that in some small way, I am helping people out and maybe even making their lives better through pinball.
I recently took a better look at Diner and updated that review. I didn’t get the game as well as I should have when I first reviewed it. When an owner of the game took the time to show me what they did when they played it, I was able to grasp the game more completely and effectively.
I want to acknowledge collectors, players, shows, museums and organizations that keep these pinballs alive past their money making careers, for the love of the game.
I’m just passing that information along in the hope that other people will find value in this information with their search as well.
Happy hunting!
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:I want to acknowledge collectors, players, shows, museums and organizations that keep these games alive past their money making lives for the love of the game.
It would be cool if you could have your ratings coincide with different game categories. It is hard to filter through 900 ratings and mixing EM's and moderns is really apples and oranges. I really do not look at ratings or read reviews to be honest but if I look at someone's collection or ratings I can get an idea of what they like and prefer. If I want to know more about a game I usually go to international pinball database and read up on it or try and find a video on Youtube to check it out. Often times the games people hate are the games I love and the opinions are too subjective for me to consider.
https://www.ipdb.org/search.pl
I need to update my ratings-they are old and useless. I also had the thought of trying to rate my top 100 machines-not less-not more(would have to delete as needed-moved to just comment section). What are your true top 100? Would be interesting if you had top 100 EM category and top 100 modern?
Quoted from mystman12:1 is supposed to represent something that is absolutely terrible with practically no redeeming qualities...
In other words: Thunderbirds
Quoted from luch:and now star wars goes from #2 to #45
Wow. I didn't think you were serious until I checked!
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Wow. I didn't think you were serious until I checked!
Yep. Seems legitimate. Got as many ratings in one week as it had in the prior 15 months, and the average of the “new” ratings were almost 2 points lower than those from the prior 15 months....
Also, I think only one or two of the “low” ratings had comments.
Any guesses as to how many of the new raters had played the game within the last six months, or ever?
Quoted from pinmister:It would be cool if you could have your ratings coincide with different game categories. It is hard to filter through 900 ratings and mixing EM's and moderns is really apples and oranges. I really do not look at ratings or read reviews to be honest but if I look at someone's collection or ratings I can get an idea of what they like and prefer. If I want to know more about a game I usually go to international pinball database and read up on it or try and find a video on Youtube to check it out. Often times the games people hate are the games I love and the opinions are too subjective for me to consider.
https://www.ipdb.org/search.pl
I need to update my ratings-they are old and useless. I also had the thought of trying to rate my top 100 machines-not less-not more(would have to delete as needed-moved to just comment section). What are your true top 100? Would be interesting if you had top 100 EM category and top 100 modern?
A vintage by technology would help. There is a ratings by decade that goes back to the 70’s. That doesn’t help with a game from the 40’s, but it is an idea that has been partially implemented already. If the ratings could be stacked with qualifications for the search, it would be easier to find which EM wedgehead from the 60’s is the one people like the best (for me that’s a toss up between Central Park, Slick Chick and North Star). I will also readily admit to the fact that I rate games in relation to games of close vintage in consideration of my rankings. Is Star Wars DE a modern game with updated code (thank you pinballcode.com) and lots of bells and whistles, it certainly is. I’d still rather play a game of Surf Champ as compared to that design. All day long.
But this is just an opinion and hey, that’s just me.
The Ipdg.org has great search features. Simple and advanced. Items that could be considered in the searches would be interrelated to the game info might be:
Manufacturer info:
Date of manufacture
Manufacturer name
Number of players
Talent pool:
Designer
Programmer
Artist
Composer
Engineer
Version of the game example: 1/2/4/6 player or pro/premium/LE, gold/platinum/diamond etc...
Any other ideas robin ?
And if you update your old reviews, I’d ask you to not delete the old information. Keep it in there so people can understand how your progressed to your current view. At least, that’s how I see my reviews. It’s a story.
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:I’d ask you to not delete the old information
Sorry did not mean delete, but meant that once a rating goes above your top 100, it gets moved to a comment section instead. You could have top 100 EM, Top 100 modern and 600 ratings under comment sections.
I would like to be able to rate my top 100 based on a number system of 1-100. It is difficult to try and list your true top 100 the way it is set up now. How can I rate STTNG #1 when the art is not a 10? You have to fudge ratings to get the position you want? I suggest 1-100 scale with a comment section for rules, art, etc.
Quoted from luch:and now star wars goes from #2 to #45
Yea, still way high, it belongs around 120 or so.
Keep the votes coming.
Quoted from Dr-pin:Yea, still way high, it belongs around 120 or so.
This thread cracks me up- Oh Star Wars is #2! Oh the Horror-get all the keyboard commandos to join up to go in and give it low ratings to change position. LOL
Keyboard commandos.gifQuoted from Dr-pin:Yea, still way high, it belongs around 120 or so.
Keep the votes coming.
i will respectfully disagree
Quoted from luch:i will respectfully disagree
Thats ok.
I havent rated it. I had the chance to lease it, but after 20 games or so, i had the same feeling you have when you start reading a book and throws it after half a chapter, realising, this is not worth my time.
I'd like to see anybody put front some kind of argument, it's the second best game, ever made, lol.
Quoted from pinmister:This thread cracks me up- Oh Star Wars is #2! Oh the Horror-get all the keyboard commandos to join up to go in and give it low ratings to change position. LOL
[quoted image]
It takes one.......
Need a little AI on the rating engine. Throw out absolutes like all 1’s or all 5’s. If Facebook, Twitter and Instagram can block comments (or in this case pin voting). Maybe Pinside should too.
Quoted from Dr-pin:Thats ok.
I havent rated it. I had the chance to lease it, but after 20 games or so, i had the same feeling you have when you start reading a book and throws it after half a chapter, realising, this is not worth my time.
I'd like to see anybody put front some kind of argument, it's the second best game, ever made, lol.
I have weighed in on this before but will do so again. But let me start by saying that over time, if people had voted legitimately and it wasn’t the second best game, it would have naturally drifted lower in the rankings until it settled in wherever was appropriate. Instead, people intentionally under-rated it to make sure it fell, but enough people had that same bright idea that it actually plummeted all the way to 45th. That’s the part that is ridiculous. Did all of those people who intentionally underrated it get great satisfaction at their accomplishment when they saw how far it fell? If so, they have bigger issues than having the highlight of their lives being the unofficial Pinside Top 100 police.
This is clearly a Top 20 game, and for me, it is my favorite and here is why:
1. First thing that needs to be said, is this ONLY applies to the premium. The Pro is very bare and although it shoots well, I don’t love the Pro and can see how others rate it low (although many love the Pro too). For the premium, the hyperspace loop makes the game because it adds a great deal of variety to the game play, and is a great “toy.” I cannot think of a more satisfying shot in pinball then unlocking the Hyperspace Multiball by executing a tough shot up the Hyperspace ramp, and then immediately getting a second ball and trying to do it again. And if successful, getting another ball and doing it again. If you get three or more balls up there, the entire pin starts to wobble from the balls moving around. It is absolutely thrilling.
2. The rules are amazing. The story modes with needing to complete 3 missions on each planet is intuitive and follows the movies. It has 500+ original scenes from the movie that play according to the mission you are on. That integration, especially for those who love Star Wars, is amazing. It’s also my wife’s favorite part of the game and the first thing she tells people when they ask about the pin.
3. You can play it in a variety of ways. The shot multiplier annoys many, but unless you are trying to get a high score (there are so many other options to play and have fun that you don’t need to always focus on score) you don’t even need to move the multipliers. However, if you are going for score. It is an amazing use of the center button and requires you to take your hand off of the flipper to move it. That risk-reward decision is the key to scoring well and creates great satisfaction when you move the multiplier and then hit the shot you moved it to. It also makes the fan layout more interesting.
4. It shoots great! The orbits and ramps are smooth and fast and the center horseshoe loop is insanely fast. In terms of a flow-style pin, this is as good as pinball gets.
5. Blowing up the Death Star is amazing. It is hard to do, which makes it even better, but when you do, the Death Star physically opens and “explodes.” For a game that many say has no toys, that is a hell of a non-toy.
6. Shaker integration in this game is second to none. Hitting the Tie-Fighter and getting a shake every time makes that shot rewarding, as do the other uses for the shaker during the game.
7. Video mode is one of the best. With the new code update that allows you to limit how often you hit the video mode, it is no longer overdone and EVERY first-time player absolutely loves the video mode.
8. The lighting on this game is as good as any pin. Lots of lights, and great use of them. Special modes like red and blue lightsaber duel and black and hit strobe effect for Boba Fett give great variety, but it is just a well lit and great light show pin. Add mirror blades and it goes from a 10 to an 11!
9. Has that one more game feel to it in that you always want to go farther or hit the Hyperspace one more time. Those who say otherwise have probably only played the Pro on location with a bad set up.
10. The Comic Art is spectacular. The pin really is beautiful and pops, especially in a home setting.
I have played every pin in the Top 20 other than Twilight Zone and Indiana Jones, and I have this rated as a perfect 10 and my #1 pin that I have ever played. (Look at my ratings and tell me if you disagree with my other ratings? If not, maybe I am right about SW too?)
I joined Pinside after buying it and that is why I chose SWFan as my handle, because I am a huge fan of the Star Wars Pin. I bought it NIB and could have bought any other pin instead, including Jurassic Park Premium or any of the Jersey Jacks prior to GNR and chose SW Premium instead—and couldn’t be happier with my choice. As I said in my review of SW, I didn’t rate it a 10 because I own it... I own it because I rate it a 10!
So you wanted someone to make an argument that this should be rated #2 and I just did. But again, whether it was 2, or 7 or 15 would have all been reasonable. 45th is not reasonable for a pin with this many assets, this variety of gameplay, this great of a shooter and this art package.
Not top 20. Not stern top 10 even. I play a mint le on a regular basis. Its fun, not a bad game. Topper is neat but overpriced.
Would much rather play lotr, either im, either met, gb pro, ehoh, jp2 pro, etc.
Quoted from SWfan:I have weighed in on this before but will do so again. But let me start by saying that over time, if people had voted legitimately and it wasn’t the second best game, it would have naturally drifted lower in the rankings until it settled in wherever was appropriate.
So basically you are fine with people intentionally rate it higher then it's worth, but not fine with intentionally rating it lower then it's worth?
Quoted from Dr-pin:So basically you are fine with people intentionally rate it higher then it's worth, but not fine with intentionally rating it lower then it's worth?
When did I say that? My comment that it would slide down over time is because the early ratings are disproportionately from people that own it or love it, which is likely why they rated it so early in the voting. Over time, that would get evened out with people who don’t love it as much which would likely drive the overall rating lower. I wasn’t saying that people artificially rated it high at the beginning, or that I was okay with that if they did.
I think everyone should rate it exactly where they think it should be rated. If that occurred, this thread would have never happened.
Quoted from dung:Not top 20. Not stern top 10 even. I play a mint le on a regular basis. Its fun, not a bad game. Topper is neat but overpriced.
Would much rather play lotr, either im, either met, gb pro, ehoh, jp2 pro, etc.
You certainly have a right to your opinion (although you only list 8 pins that your prefer, so it still MAY rate in your Top 20 after all— but if it isn’t so be it). My point is and always has simply been that people should be honest with their rating. If you think it is a 9/10, don’t rate it a 10/10; if you think it is an 8/10 don’t rate it a 7/10. And if you think it is a 5/10, don’t rate it a 2/10.
Not complicated.
Many of the things you love about Star Wars only apply to the Premium...which most people (other than owners) never get to play, as most location machines are the Pro version.
I've played Star Wars a bunch of times (but always the Pro), and was completely bored by it. And I am a gigantic fan of the original movies. Maybe the premium version is worthy of a good rating, but the Pro is not.
Quoted from mbeardsley:Many of the things you love about Star Wars only apply to the Premium...which most people (other than owners) never get to play, as most location machines are the Pro version.
I've played Star Wars a bunch of times (but always the Pro), and was completely bored by it. And I am a gigantic fan of the original movies. Maybe the premium version is worthy of a good rating, but the Pro is not.
I agree with this 100%.
The only thing I would add is that those who have only played the Pro should NOT rate the Premium (obviously). Yet, it’s pretty clear to me that some do.
Ratings don't mean much.
Just fixed what is supposed to be the 2nd Best all time EM there is, Williams Lady Luck.
I was expecting it to be killer compared to the hundred others I've played or owned.
Its alright, nothing to write home about. Not sure its even a keeper.
Just a bunch of guys who at one time thought it was great and said so.
Quoted from SWfan:I have weighed in on this before but will do so again. But let me start by saying that over time, if people had voted legitimately and it wasn’t the second best game, it would have naturally drifted lower in the rankings until it settled in wherever was appropriate. Instead, people intentionally under-rated it to make sure it fell, but enough people had that same bright idea that it actually plummeted all the way to 45th. That’s the part that is ridiculous. Did all of those people who intentionally underrated it get great satisfaction at their accomplishment when they saw how far it fell? If so, they have bigger issues than having the highlight of their lives being the unofficial Pinside Top 100 police.
This is clearly a Top 20 game, and for me, it is my favorite and here is why:
1. First thing that needs to be said, is this ONLY applies to the premium. The Pro is very bare and although it shoots well, I don’t love the Pro and can see how others rate it low (although many love the Pro too). For the premium, the hyperspace loop makes the game because it adds a great deal of variety to the game play, and is a great “toy.” I cannot think of a more satisfying shot in pinball then unlocking the Hyperspace Multiball by executing a tough shot up the Hyperspace ramp, and then immediately getting a second ball and trying to do it again. And if successful, getting another ball and doing it again. If you get three or more balls up there, the entire pin starts to wobble from the balls moving around. It is absolutely thrilling.
2. The rules are amazing. The story modes with needing to complete 3 missions on each planet is intuitive and follows the movies. It has 500+ original scenes from the movie that play according to the mission you are on. That integration, especially for those who love Star Wars, is amazing. It’s also my wife’s favorite part of the game and the first thing she tells people when they ask about the pin.
3. You can play it in a variety of ways. The shot multiplier annoys many, but unless you are trying to get a high score (there are so many other options to play and have fun that you don’t need to always focus on score) you don’t even need to move the multipliers. However, if you are going for score. It is an amazing use of the center button and requires you to take your hand off of the flipper to move it. That risk-reward decision is the key to scoring well and creates great satisfaction when you move the multiplier and then hit the shot you moved it to. It also makes the fan layout more interesting.
4. It shoots great! The orbits and ramps are smooth and fast and the center horseshoe loop is insanely fast. In terms of a flow-style pin, this is as good as pinball gets.
5. Blowing up the Death Star is amazing. It is hard to do, which makes it even better, but when you do, the Death Star physically opens and “explodes.” For a game that many say has no toys, that is a hell of a non-toy.
6. Shaker integration in this game is second to none. Hitting the Tie-Fighter and getting a shake every time makes that shot rewarding, as do the other uses for the shaker during the game.
7. Video mode is one of the best. With the new code update that allows you to limit how often you hit the video mode, it is no longer overdone and EVERY first-time player absolutely loves the video mode.
8. The lighting on this game is as good as any pin. Lots of lights, and great use of them. Special modes like red and blue lightsaber duel and black and hit strobe effect for Boba Fett give great variety, but it is just a well lit and great light show pin. Add mirror blades and it goes from a 10 to an 11!
9. Has that one more game feel to it in that you always want to go farther or hit the Hyperspace one more time. Those who say otherwise have probably only played the Pro on location with a bad set up.
10. The Comic Art is spectacular. The pin really is beautiful and pops, especially in a home setting.
I have played every pin in the Top 20 other than Twilight Zone and Indiana Jones, and I have this rated as a perfect 10 and my #1 pin that I have ever played. (Look at my ratings and tell me if you disagree with my other ratings? If not, maybe I am right about SW too?)
I joined Pinside after buying it and that is why I chose SWFan as my handle, because I am a huge fan of the Star Wars Pin. I bought it NIB and could have bought any other pin instead, including Jurassic Park Premium or any of the Jersey Jacks prior to GNR and chose SW Premium instead—and couldn’t be happier with my choice. As I said in my review of SW, I didn’t rate it a 10 because I own it... I own it because I rate it a 10!
So you wanted someone to make an argument that this should be rated #2 and I just did. But again, whether it was 2, or 7 or 15 would have all been reasonable. 45th is not reasonable for a pin with this many assets, this variety of gameplay, this great of a shooter and this art package.
I agree, some people did not give it a chance.
Quoted from Dr-pin:So basically you are fine with people intentionally rate it higher then it's worth, but not fine with intentionally rating it lower then it's worth?
No that's not what he said, if someone loves it and thinks it's one of the better games he/she can rate it very high (why would someone buy a game if it wasn't one of their favorite?) I bought SW comic premium *I could have bought any pin in the world* at the time but I picked *SW premium* because I thought it was better than JP, EHOH, Maiden, BM66, TAF, MM or MB etc..
But just becasue I didn't buy JP or EHOH or Maiden didn't mean they are bad pins that should be rated down to the ground for whatever reason. I think **most** pins are in the 7-9.7 range. It woyld need to be pretty bad to get a 4-5 rating. However as was said before most pins are rated in the range of 7-9.5 so that if something was naturally a 8.5 but someone rated as 9.5 that would not really bring the rating up that much (one point higher than average) as a 4.5 would bring it down (4 points lower than average) 2.5 would be 6 points lower than average. Also how is SW getting anything lower than 7.5 range when it has everything most people want, deep rules, shoots well, great theme, 500+ movie clips (something that is missing from a lot of great pins), great toy(s) and great lights. I can't see anyone voting DP, Maiden or JP high on toys, rules or lights and yet rate SW low on toys, rules, or lights.
Quoted from SWfan:I have weighed in on this before but will do so again. But let me start by saying that over time, if people had voted legitimately and it wasn’t the second best game, it would have naturally drifted lower in the rankings until it settled in wherever was appropriate. Instead, people intentionally under-rated it to make sure it fell, but enough people had that same bright idea that it actually plummeted all the way to 45th. That’s the part that is ridiculous. Did all of those people who intentionally underrated it get great satisfaction at their accomplishment when they saw how far it fell? If so, they have bigger issues than having the highlight of their lives being the unofficial Pinside Top 100 police.
This is clearly a Top 20 game, and for me, it is my favorite and here is why:
1. First thing that needs to be said, is this ONLY applies to the premium. The Pro is very bare and although it shoots well, I don’t love the Pro and can see how others rate it low (although many love the Pro too). For the premium, the hyperspace loop makes the game because it adds a great deal of variety to the game play, and is a great “toy.” I cannot think of a more satisfying shot in pinball then unlocking the Hyperspace Multiball by executing a tough shot up the Hyperspace ramp, and then immediately getting a second ball and trying to do it again. And if successful, getting another ball and doing it again. If you get three or more balls up there, the entire pin starts to wobble from the balls moving around. It is absolutely thrilling.
2. The rules are amazing. The story modes with needing to complete 3 missions on each planet is intuitive and follows the movies. It has 500+ original scenes from the movie that play according to the mission you are on. That integration, especially for those who love Star Wars, is amazing. It’s also my wife’s favorite part of the game and the first thing she tells people when they ask about the pin.
3. You can play it in a variety of ways. The shot multiplier annoys many, but unless you are trying to get a high score (there are so many other options to play and have fun that you don’t need to always focus on score) you don’t even need to move the multipliers. However, if you are going for score. It is an amazing use of the center button and requires you to take your hand off of the flipper to move it. That risk-reward decision is the key to scoring well and creates great satisfaction when you move the multiplier and then hit the shot you moved it to. It also makes the fan layout more interesting.
4. It shoots great! The orbits and ramps are smooth and fast and the center horseshoe loop is insanely fast. In terms of a flow-style pin, this is as good as pinball gets.
5. Blowing up the Death Star is amazing. It is hard to do, which makes it even better, but when you do, the Death Star physically opens and “explodes.” For a game that many say has no toys, that is a hell of a non-toy.
6. Shaker integration in this game is second to none. Hitting the Tie-Fighter and getting a shake every time makes that shot rewarding, as do the other uses for the shaker during the game.
7. Video mode is one of the best. With the new code update that allows you to limit how often you hit the video mode, it is no longer overdone and EVERY first-time player absolutely loves the video mode.
8. The lighting on this game is as good as any pin. Lots of lights, and great use of them. Special modes like red and blue lightsaber duel and black and hit strobe effect for Boba Fett give great variety, but it is just a well lit and great light show pin. Add mirror blades and it goes from a 10 to an 11!
9. Has that one more game feel to it in that you always want to go farther or hit the Hyperspace one more time. Those who say otherwise have probably only played the Pro on location with a bad set up.
10. The Comic Art is spectacular. The pin really is beautiful and pops, especially in a home setting.
I have played every pin in the Top 20 other than Twilight Zone and Indiana Jones, and I have this rated as a perfect 10 and my #1 pin that I have ever played. (Look at my ratings and tell me if you disagree with my other ratings? If not, maybe I am right about SW too?)
I joined Pinside after buying it and that is why I chose SWFan as my handle, because I am a huge fan of the Star Wars Pin. I bought it NIB and could have bought any other pin instead, including Jurassic Park Premium or any of the Jersey Jacks prior to GNR and chose SW Premium instead—and couldn’t be happier with my choice. As I said in my review of SW, I didn’t rate it a 10 because I own it... I own it because I rate it a 10!
So you wanted someone to make an argument that this should be rated #2 and I just did. But again, whether it was 2, or 7 or 15 would have all been reasonable. 45th is not reasonable for a pin with this many assets, this variety of gameplay, this great of a shooter and this art package.
Quoted from SWfan:I agree with this 100%.
The only thing I would add is that those who have only played the Pro should NOT rate the Premium (obviously). Yet, it’s pretty clear to me that some do.
The thing is, I owned the Pro and loved it. I was very engaged by it, because you've got the traditional modes to play and shots to make, but then you also have a lot of extra things to do and keep on your mind. Such as moving the shot-multiplier. I find this added a lot to my fun, as I love having extra things to do and think about while playing pinball. Also, paying attention to the multiplier countdown and remembering to make a shot at the tie fighters in order to keep it going also kept me engaged on another level besides the modes. Plus, I actually loved mashing the center button to blow-up tie fighters. I thought that I'd hate it, but it's actually one of my favorite things to do. I love the risk-reward of it, and I love when I can manage to cradle a ball and just mash the crap out of the button.
The pro shoots really nice, and I find hitting the inner-loop shot to be very satisfying from either entry direction. And I especially find hitting the designated DS shot from the left entry to be a very fun and challenging shot. I love attempting to backhand it, and when you make it, it feels great.
The SW Pro can also be very exciting and engaging when you start stacking up multiballs. I can vividly recall starting a Planet Multiball, then starting Tie-Fighter MB during the Planet MB. Which helped me finish said planet MB, and taking that into Victory multiball, and then starting hyperspace MB at the same time. It was thrilling, and the pro still manages to do good job making the HS MB exciting with the engine thrum, and the method of locking balls in the loop, and then knocking them free to get add-a-ball trying to do it again is very fun. So yeah, SW, even the Pro, had a lot of exciting moments for me. But to each their own.
I love SW pro too. I almost got the pro because the comic art is one of the best looking ever ant the pro has the same great code and shots but the hyper loop puts the premium higher in the toys and gimmicks and I think the lights also for me. So I rated the premium a bit higher but I’m still recommending the pro to those who are looking for a cheaper version.
I realize not everyone loves SW but same time not everyone loves GnR or AIQ. Everyone have a different take on pins.
Quoted from DakotaMike:The thing is, I owned the Pro and loved it. I was very engaged by it, because you've got the traditional modes to play and shots to make, but then you also have a lot of extra things to do and keep on your mind. Such as moving the shot-multiplier. I find this added a lot to my fun, as I love having extra things to do and think about while playing pinball. Also, paying attention to the multiplier countdown and remembering to make a shot at the tie fighters in order to keep it going also kept me engaged on another level besides the modes. Plus, I actually loved mashing the center button to blow-up tie fighters. I thought that I'd hate it, but it's actually one of my favorite things to do. I love the risk-reward of it, and I love when I can manage to cradle a ball and just mash the crap out of the button.
The pro shoots really nice, and I find hitting the inner-loop shot to be very satisfying from either entry direction. And I especially find hitting the designated DS shot from the left entry to be a very fun and challenging shot. I love attempting to backhand it, and when you make it, it feels great.
The SW Pro can also be very exciting and engaging when you start stacking up multiballs. I can vividly recall starting a Planet Multiball, then starting Tie-Fighter MB during the Planet MB. Which helped me finish said planet MB, and taking that into Victory multiball, and then starting hyperspace MB at the same time. It was thrilling, and the pro still manages to do good job making the HS MB exciting with the engine thrum, and the method of locking balls in the loop, and then knocking them free to get add-a-ball trying to do it again is very fun. So yeah, SW, even the Pro, had a lot of exciting moments for me. But to each their own.
I said in an earlier post that a lot of people like the Pro too. But everything you said about the Pro takes more than 4 quarters on location to figure out. Add to that hungry outlanes (especially on location) and people decide this isn’t a great pin before ever understanding the code that makes it great...
Quoted from pinmister:Sorry did not mean delete, but meant that once a rating goes above your top 100, it gets moved to a comment section instead. You could have top 100 EM, Top 100 modern and 600 ratings under comment sections.
I would like to be able to rate my top 100 based on a number system of 1-100. It is difficult to try and list your true top 100 the way it is set up now. How can I rate STTNG #1 when the art is not a 10? You have to fudge ratings to get the position you want? I suggest 1-100 scale with a comment section for rules, art, etc.
That is a good point.
However “fudging” can be abused as evidenced by the title of this thread. Even with this system in place that you are proposing, how would that hinder abuse? Even if it isn’t abusive, re-reviewed ratings would change in the 1-100 standings if the parts of the ratings (ie rules, when they are updated). How does the system stay true to the top 100 if your opinions evolve? If the 1-100 is a hard assigned rating, how do we accommodate these ideas? Does the user have to keep track of their top 100 manually?
How does this work?
If people are just honest, this is a good system. I have a lot of reviews because fortunately there is a place with many pins that gets new games where you can play for 5 hours with a flat fee. In that case you have time to spend on games maybe you wouldn't, but also want to play the games you like. I don't buy in that you can't review if you don't have a ton of time on a game because if I'm not digging a game I'll move on. After several times, just moving on it means it's not a game I like compared to other better games. I don't need to force myself to play a game I don't like. I also update my reviews if my opinion changes. TWD is a good example where I didn't realize the first time I played it had old code and then all of a suddent the game got better and I updated my review. Also, owners of games will typically rate higher because they sought out the game for a reason, they like it. It's not necessarily price pumping. That's my 2 cents.
Quoted from RyanStl:If people are just honest, this is a good system. I have a lot of reviews because fortunately there is a place with many pins that gets new games where you can play for 5 hours with a flat fee. In that case you have time to spend on games maybe you wouldn't, but also want to play the games you like. I don't buy in that you can't review if you don't have a ton of time on a game because if I'm not digging a game I'll move on. After several times, just moving on it means it's not a game I like compared to other better games. I don't need to force myself to play a game I don't like. I also update my reviews if my opinion changes. TWD is a good example where I didn't realize the first time I played it had old code and then all of a suddent the game got better and I updated my review. Also, owners of games will typically rate higher because they sought out the game for a reason, they like it. It's not necessarily price pumping. That's my 2 cents.
I agree with everything you said!
So you’re up to 4 cents now for your opinion... 
Quoted from Caucasian2Step:, how would that hinder abuse?
Robin pretty much hit the nail on the head with it is subjective and if you really want to get an idea about a game try and read up on it with people's comments, etc. The top 100 is a computer generated populated list that averages ratings, does the popular vote really indicate the best machines? No-too subjective-One man's trash is another mans treasure.
There will always be abuse-no way of getting around it. Some people despise Star Wars-some people think it is the best thing since sliced bread(including myself). All over the board, and people who abuse the system to try and change a position is comical(must be really bored).
If they decide to change the rating system and use a number base(with comment section) instead I feel it will be a more true accurate representation of Pinsider's true top 100. Like I said the way it is set up now really does not work. If a games art is not great but the gameplay is amaze balls-how do you get the position on top 100 you want? You have to fudge it and then the review is inaccurate and forced. Make it 1-100 scale and provide several genre categories and then you will be able to see what games other pinsiders prefer and what their true top 100 is. What would that do? Well over time you start to see pinsiders that you relate to and you see what their favorite games are. I have about a half dozen pinsiders that have very similar taste to me and I often check out their collections and ratings for insight. I have never considered top 100 to be accurate or viable when I am considering a comparison for a new pinball purchase.
Also had an afterthought how does one rate 100 machines if they have not played 100+machines? Well they just rate how many they have actually played but have to think about how they would rate them based on list of 1-100. If someone has only played 20 titles-then they rate the 20 titles they have played and can comment on. It will not be easy trying to rate your personal top 100-it would take some deep thought and consideration. When a new title comes along and it replaces another title in the 1-100 then a game drops off list and is moved to comment section-that is if there are any comments or ratings attached.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/abuse-of-rating-system-/page/4?hl=swfan and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Ann Arbor, MI
Newmarket, ON
Trollhättan