Ghostbusters (Pro)
Stern, 2016
Iron Man
Stern, 2010
KISS (Pro)
Stern, 2015
Star Trek (LE)
Stern, 2013
Star Trek (Premium)
Stern, 2013
The Avengers (LE)
Stern, 2012
The Avengers (Premium)
Stern, 2012
Transformers (LE)
Stern, 2011You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider markmon.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Quoted from ecurtz:This is not something Stern should be proud of.
Disagree. Having developers with passion to work in something in their spare time because they love it is quite different then having developers that work 9-5 because that's when they're paid.
Quoted from scott_freeman:Jared,
I have money to purchase a GOT for my home. When the code is finished properly, I will order a new one.
There is a long list of games which have not been supported. And, I will not be held hostage again by Stern waiting for the code to be completed.
I'm holding my money hostage this time.
Your move.
Your loss this time. GoT is done enough that if no more updates come out its fine.
Quoted from TomGWI:Other games:
Kiss - not done
ST - better needs some bugs fixed
Avatar - bugs
XMen - wizard mode ends games, bugs
Avengers - Hulk needs code (in Hulk voice)
GoT - not done just released
WWE - lol
Mustang - ?????
Avatar is great and does not need a code update.
Xmen is great. We haven't been able to reproduce any wizard mode bugs. They may exist but are super hard to find playing
Avengers really just needs better dots on wizard mode and a Thor flasher fix. Does not need more voices.
Mustang pro code is great and does not need an update. Cannot speak for le
GoT code is great and could stay as is forever.
Star Trek code is done also now and might need a couple bug fixes that are questionable.
Things are definitely looking good.
Quoted from ecurtz:"Our Elementary School teachers love the kids so much they purchase school supplies on their own and bring them in!"
I'm not saying the programmers shouldn't be proud of the job they do, they should. But Stern doesn't get praise for the fact that they're unwilling to fund development to the level that the programmers think it should be done. Those games got better DESPITE Stern's lack of support, not because of them.
A programmer owning a game would never be done. Look at CCC for example. As a programmer I totally understand it. Stern should not pay every time someone decides to add non planned features to the code.
Quoted from RDReynolds:Avengers needs a H drop target fix. Badly.
You could always fix your H target though and avoid the issues. I agree it needs better tolerance for the problem but it works fine when the target is right.
Quoted from TomGWI:I have Avatar LE. It is great. Seed shots are not lit during Link MB but shots count towards link MB. No dots for Final Battle. I can live with it but it has it's issues but I know Stern will never touch it.
I really don't want to comment on code anymore. I will only buy games from 2 programmers NIB for now on. One from Stern and One from JJP, oh and Spooky.
My whole point was most games have the core code either done or acceptable.
I've been to final battle about 3 times on Avatar. Each time, it was very exciting and I didnt notice if there were dots or not (I guess it was too frantic). But the sounds and lighting during final battle feel extremely complete. I wouldnt consider a small bug in game stacking to classify this as an incomplete game needing an update.
Quoted from TomGWI:But you classified Avengers as the same thing, right?!
Better dots final wizard mode and a bulb not working. Sounds like the same complaint but different game. So why the need for one and not the other?
image.jpegimage.jpeg
I've been to final battle 3 times and it's fine as it is. I've never been to avengers battle for earth so I can't say how it feels bit of it's like you said with a screen showing the hits needed, that seems good to me. I agree the Thor flasher bug isn't an issue if incomplete game code. I'd much rather have a frantic multiball mode have a static screen with data on what I need to do than have a bunch of animations going by each time I try to glance up during the mayhem. I think shadow final battle is exactly the same way. As long as all the sounds, lights, and scoring is there it's good.
Quoted from flynnibus:yeah, but passion work should lead to passion projects... not 'we gotta work on our own time to finish projects because the boss won't resource them properly'
Yep. The passion here generated VIP pass, a feature not conceived of by the game designer and arguably one of the best features of AC/DC. A non passionate worker would have just focused on implementing the game features and being done.
Quoted from pinworthy:I say this as a HUGE fan of mustang but NO, the pro code is only GOOD and could be improved. There is at least one bug that traps balls behind the left ramp, if it is down and the upper switch is triggered it should lift the ramp and there are situations where it doesn't (I can't find any fault in the switch and I hear the same complaint from others). I have some other glitches that I have noticed as well. IMO there could be improvements in the code from a play-ability standpoint but honestly I'm not expecting any updates and will still love playing it.
Sure there can always be improvements. But that doesn't mean the game is incomplete and *needs* an update. I've never played any game that couldn't be improved.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Instead of buying NIB, I now wait until games are finished code wise.
TWD is getting better and better, but still waiting until finished.
KISS - code was pretty basic - no chance of buying that.
ACDC - waiting for inserts that do nothing to do something!
No more buying games with incomplete code. Been there, done that, got the T shirt and lost my shirt
TWD code is fantastic and all features implemented. More is coming but it could sit as is forever and be a gem.
AC/DC - it is a coding masterpiece. Complaining about a couple inserts is silly. The code lead decided to go a different direction and probably wishes those inserts weren't there. I bet he would have liked some vip pass counter inserts instead. Acdc code is both creative and polished with tons to do. Not buying this because of those inserts, which will probably never do anything exciting, is totally your loss.
If you're not satisfied with TWD and AC/DC as is, you are an impossible to please person and should never buy any pinballs.
Quoted from rai:Yes, XMLE has no premium and TWD they're selling le as if there might never be a premium.
Huh what? Wrong. TWD - there was an LE, that sold out long ago and premiums have been run. I own a premium.
Quoted from pinworthy:Having a ball stuck behind the ramp waiting for the ball search to trigger because the switch signal logic is missing isn't a sign of completed, or even well done, code. I believe it is a bug and yes it "needs" an update for that.
Quoted from rai:I'm never buying a pin from Stern unless Lyman is on it. Period, the other guys might be ok, but they don't care about the final code. They're just 9-5, on to the next game IMO.
I think that might have been true until Dwight Sullivan was rehired a couple months ago. He is an experienced pinball developer and works very well with Steve Ritchie. He did code on Star Trek next generation, which is considered great. Also no fear, t2, t3. He turned around Star Trek stern code. On that project he clearly was working after hours to get quick updates out. And he do a great job on GoT code and got a decent release drop for it. I'll buy a game Dwight is working on.
Quoted from ZenTron:Regardless, Lyman owns TWD, programs at his house and from the updates it looks as though TWD is getting preferential treatment. I think it would be fair if Lyman put 100% into games he programs and not 130% while other games at Stern just sit at 70-95%.
Super ridiculous. If the developer owns the game and decides to put his spare time into working on it because he thinks it's fun, that's awesome and does not indicate what should or should not happen to other games at all.
Quoted from o-din:40 hours should be enough time during the week to do what needs to be done. If not, then either there should be help or overtime pay compensated.
There's a difference between doing what needs to be done and getting free reign go do what you want. That difference is, for example, walker bombs, vip pass, etc. Also I would guess Lyman spends a good portion of his development time playing and play testing his code. I suppose if things were 100% 40 hour work then play testing should be limited to a specific amount of time as well. I bet you Lonnie, who is known for cranking out more completed initia code that's also unimaginative, just focuses on implementing the predesigned features and barely play tests at all. Finally, if Lyman is happy doing what he is doing and loves it, then who cares?
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:Same can be said for Avengers if that is the case. It has a wizard mode so it must be done too
Agreed. As an owner of Avengers, I feel that avengers is done.
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:I don't own an Avengers so I can't really comment but Avenger owners say there are bugs and even entire animations missing.
Well I've never been to the wizard mode on avengers but someone compared it to the final battle on avatar which also lacks animated dots. If it's like that, it's just fine. There are sounds and effects for each shot and scoring. There's too much frenzy to notice if there are animations. When I look up I see number of shots remaining at a glance. Feels perfect. Not like a place holder but intentional design. To me, that makes the game done. As for a buggy Thor flasher, that's hardly enough for calling the game incomplete. As for the H target problems on the hulk drops, if the target is right, there are no issues. I think people have targets they are either too sensitive to drop or won't stay up and want code to fix these problems (which it can). But the game can also be set up so these problems dont exist in which case the code is fine. Remember, avengers needs tons of physical tweaks to make it play right. These aren't code tweaks but fixes for design issues. The rules are quite good. I think Lonnie's best work.
Quoted from o-din:It's up to him to care. But if he is not being financially compensated for the extra hours he puts in, he really does not have to share the fruits of his extra labor with anyone until they pay up. I know I wouldn't. Been there done that.
He doensn't have to but why wouldnt he? If he isnt working on it for the company and he is implementing features he thinks are great that weren't in the original feature matrix, why should stern pay for that? Management should be saying "We didn't budget those features, please stick to the feature list", if they're faced with paying for extra stuff.
Quoted from 85vett:Sorry but you are wrong about the drop target. There are points the code causes issues. Ball goes in saucer, the game raises the drop targets, then the ball is launched into the H target and goes back in the saucer. The game then raises the drop bank again and the cycle repeats. The game is raising the targets. That is not a target sensativity issue. Some issues are due to setup but there are times it gets stuck from code.
I know what the game does. I own it. If the H target is too stiff, it will bounce back into the saucer and the cycle repeats. You are correct there. However, if the drop target is not too stiff, it will hit the target, the target will fall, and the ball will continue forward anyway and get into the hulk area. This is what happens on mine. If you apply the drop target shelf fix to help keep the target reset rather than hammering, chances are you have the target too stiff. The fact is that there is a way that the game can be set up where you never notice the problem. I do agree it seems dumb to reset the targets at all in this case. But if the target is right, and most are, it doesn't negatively impact anything.
I can (and have) take any avengers with an H target problem and fix it - completely - without any code update being needed.
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:"Watch it bub!" - Let's not pretend it was a fun/quick/painless journey for X-Men owners to get to this point...
Honestly, it's irrelevant. The Xmen code is great now. It's time to get over the emotional journey to get there. I owned xmen through it all. It sucked at first. Got great later. It's great now. Who cares what it use to be? It's not that now.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:With complete respect to Stern and code programmers no matter how many others may be hired, I have one single word:
"Slow"
Many games less than 6 months off the assembly line since 2000 before "vaulted" had very minor improvements, if at all.
The machines that received "love" were the ones that the community or operators backlashed.
There needs to be more quality control regarding features and function of code, even if 3-4 machines are running on the assembly line.
Stern's game needs to "stepped up" fast or they have the potential of losing a vast amount of their market. It has been in degradation.
I will give an example personally. I was not going to consider purchasing a MET Premium, because I had to wait two years for the code to get ironed out.
This is unacceptable.
Stern it is your move.
"Walk the walk, with talk the talk"
With your 100% B/W collection, you're too biased to have a valid say. Sorry. You're just not a stern customer. And it's too bad. Metallica is one of the greatest games ever made and was already as such at the time the premiums that you passed on we're still being run. I believe you had no intention on ever buying anything that's not a BW and are using code as an excuse - even though Metallica code, today, is better than anything on any BW game.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:How do you know I do not have a MET Premium sitting NIB unopened in my home right now?
How do you know what other Stern's I may or may not have owned, played, or tested in my lifetime?
There are quite a few assumptions here.
Because you have your collection listed and you didn't deny anything I said
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:Which is ironic as the same coders now work for Stern.
B/W pins only had 2/4/8 megs of memory & had ship with complete code, I am sure Lyman & Dwight could make some really great code for the B/W tables with 64+ megs & 2-3 years to finish the code
I completely agree with all of this
Quoted from Lermods:Ah, but IM does have a real skill shot and it's pretty difficult. Disable that pop up post at the top of the orbit and then see how easy the skill shot is. That post serves no purpose and slows the game down.
And this.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Many of the improvements that have occurred in sequential release runs of Stern titles were a result of people speaking up with good ideas, explaining a problem, and doing something.
That's what I did for LOTR before I had to take a raincheck on pinball to complete career responsibilities.
Thank you so much for saving lotr for us. I'm sure it would have been a turd if not for you. You're a fricken hero.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:This counterpost is once again an example of some type of general angst to turn this forum into a bar room brawl.
I do not understand why, except to generate false drama.
If you ever decide to meet me in person, you might have a different opinion.
"Dance with the devil, at your risk, in the PinSide Zone".
I'm in Hillsboro I you ever make your way out we can hang out 
. I don't take these forums too seriously.
Quoted from xfassa:I am a little confused by what is the time consuming part of pinball code. Is it coming up with creative rules or the actual programming? Also, how long does it take to correct a bug in the code or add a new callout (or whatever)?
I am also curious if the code is written from the ground up every time or if there is generic code/modules that can be recycled. In other words, does the programmer start from scratch or do they build on previous code?
I think once people understand the process they can fairly judge the pace at which code is released.
To add to what was said already, fixing a logic bug or changing around some rules seems ok for the lead to do whenever. But adding a callout requires the whole thing to go to the license holder for approval again. Depending on who they are, that can literally take months.
Quoted from cooked71:Has no one found a way to "crack" Stern code so as to modify it? Pinball Browser obviously did it for sounds etc, but not for more fundamental code.
Why has this not happened yet (legality aside)? It seems the community is full of people with the skills to do it. I doubt Sterns security is so advanced it's not possible.
It's not a matter of cracking code or security. You're not a programmer, are you? I wish non programmers would stop making tech statements.
You don't just modify code. Almost no one does this on any platform. You need some source code to start with. Not a pre compiled binary of executable code that runs on a proprietary CPU.
There are always some small exceptions like the guy that worked on the data east Star Wars, but this skill set is extremely unique and working on the binary level code is almost unheard of. I know there are game mods and iPhone type jailbreaks but those things work at a totally different level since there are source codes available, dll / dylibs that can be injected, etc.
While not totally accurate, think of it more like a large book. You buy a book that's 2000 pages. The author can simply modify the original book and print out a new copy. But if you want to do the same,you don't have the original word doc or whatever. You first have to type in the entire book into a document. Then you can make changes.
Quoted from TigerLaw:How hard would it be to reduce the number of required drones on Iron Man from 28 to 14 to start DoDMB? Assuming one had the source code of course.
So you're assuming that everyone agrees with this change. And that the reason not to do it is laziness or something. I think perhaps the programmers don't agree that this is a good change. I don't. The entire community doesn't. And iron man Ve is selling fine without.
But to answer your question, if I was the programmer on this project, changing this counter would take only a few minutes followed by some testing.
Quoted from flynnibus:I'm sure you could decompile much of the code.. but with everything its about input vs reward. Doing something like changing a few values by bit flipping would be simple.. reworking the code or fixing bugs is way more because you wouldn't just swap some values, but would require pushing around a lot more changes. Hacking something to run something completely new, is actually easier than hacking it to rework what is already there. Having to have a devkit setup too is also a hinderance verse being able to run a debugger right on your PC, etc.
Effort vs reward...
So even decompiling this doesn't produce very friendly assembly. You lose any intelligent variable names and code comments. Further, you'd need to spend significant time to set up a tool chain to cross compile this. Im not sure what the architecture is for say SAM or if there are vendor provided compilers already. The programmers are working in C not decomposed assembly. So this is a ton more difficult. At least the guy that did the data east Star Wars was decompiling assembly written code not some C code that a compiler "optimized".
Quoted from T7:To satisfy both it would be nice if it were adjustable in the menu - of course that would take more time than 10 minutes
I could agree with this. As for development, it wouldn't take much more time to add it as a configuration option . I guarantee they already have functions that they can call to add a variable to the menus.
Quoted from TigerLaw:Alright, I'll bite: why not? I haven't heard people say leave it like it is, impossible to get to... I can't believe Lyman meant to code a mode no one, even the best players in the world, can get to. (And we are talking about the Multiball, not the hurry up...).
Quoted from MrBally:The entire program needs to be retested and burned in. Where I work a major for sale automotive diagnostic software package was released but a few last-minute "simple" bug fixes were implemented without a complete retest. The software ended up recalibrating certain things such as odometer pulses/mile/kilometers as well as other critical functions. A major clusterfuck. Safety-related automotive control modules. Our "experts" some with 25+ years experience though there was no way the areas they changed would have any effect on other parts of the software package were dead wrong.
Imagine if a simple patch somehow allowed certain pulse-only solenoids to come on and stay on in a pinball machine. If a fuse was incorrect or not low current rated enough to blow, a thermal event might even be possible.
It really depends on what the change is and how the software is architected. Modifying a counter used for just a drone count wouldn't need extensive complete retesting. If each unit is precompiled and the other units that control say solenoid power etc aren't even recompiled, then there is prob no need for a thorough retest. There are many cases and you can't make a single blanket statement based on one experience.
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:Come on pmWolf, that is an inside joke about something Eggbert said awhile ago. I obviously wasn't serious (that's why I put "joke" in brackets, for the overly sensitive). Stop abusing your moderator "powers".
Agreed, its getting silly.
Quoted from judremy:If they give a finished X-Men code, then I will be happy.
Most Important:
Reset hero inserts after Danger Room (needed due to removal of "final" wizard mode)
Reset villain inserts after Dark Phoenix (needed due to removal of "final" wizard mode)
Would be nice:
in Xavier mode, Ice-Man shot should be Ice-Man ramp, not Storm ramp.
Doing just these small things would make the game great to me. The "resets" used to be there when the placeholder "final" wizard mode was there, so the code exists to do this, it just needs to be called after a different mode is completed. Simple.
I like the final wizard mode version better than the very latest one. I think that's what we were running and didn't have any issues beating the game and getting past everything.
Quoted from Chambahz:you guys are the absolute worst part of pinball in my opinion.
We have (or maybe more like "had") an opportunity to get info/feedback from the only real pinball company in existence.
No disrespect meant to JJP, Spooky, or Heighway -but currently Stern is by far the only producer of multiple titles each year.
We may not agree or appreciate how they do things all the time, but having Jared here at least opened the door to discussion, feedback, and most importantly: future opportunities for improved communication.
Jared did a great job in my opinion of explaining Sterns stance on things like the importance of deep code at time of release. Pinsiders hate not having complete code from the get-go. Stern feels that's it's more important to keep the factory lines working, and that in time, code is improved. It was suggested that if code is most important to you, as a buyer, then you can sit back and wait for games to be finished.
Pinsiders who didn't like that answer whined about being offended, being unappreciated.
So Stern can't win because a bunch of middle-aged internet tough-guys would rather buy up new releases and then complain about them, than to actually make rational purchases, like vault editions, or games that have had time to have completed code.
I know this post won't win me any popularity with any of you and I dont care. The truth is, you've helped reduce this website to useless posts with hateful commentary -with the exception being some extremely helpful repair threads thrown in.
Nice work fellas, you finally won.
Well said. Pinside is a horrible place for anyone making a pinball machine to hang out. It drives out people working for these companies like Jared and Alex and instead we are left with a bunch of threads from people that can't fix their machines or that want to cry cause prices are too high.
Quoted from labnip:Is it a little weird the Stern social media dude has shut down his pinside account?
Is he still the stern social media dude?
Did they make him shut it down?
Does it have something to do with ghostbusters?
This is weird
Perhaps he has realized - like other vendors - that Pinside isn't a friendly place for vendors to hang out.
Quoted from Circus_Animal:...which makes it all the more mystifying that Stern's standard business practice is to allow multiple games to languish with half-arsed code.
It doesn't feel like this is Stern's practice. Instead, they're just super slow about getting the games up to par (a year or so after release). Once the code is done, it's way beyond just implementing the features and is usually quite good.
Quoted from Tigger64:But doesn't this come back to the basic question: When the game goes out the door, shouldn't the code be complete already? As customers, what level of completion should we reasonably expect to have?
I don't expect perfection, and yes they will find some bugs that need to be addressed. But I don't think they should release things with the intention that they'll keep working on it over time - the danger is that there isn't enough time or budget to go back.
I'd like to see them be able to just focus on the game that's coming up, and the next one down the road. The more time they spend on past games, the less time they are putting into the next ones. Plus, how long should they keep looking back? Some people are talking about code for games they made 7 or 8 years ago.
I know it won't happen but I'd rather see a game get delayed but come out complete, rather than on time with missing code.
I think the problem is that they have to keep the factory moving constantly otherwise they're paying a ton of factory workers to do nothing or laying them off and constantly hiring and training new folks due to that. A week delay in a game could be a huge cost. The stern factory is why they can crank out a run in a couple weeks where other companies take 6 months to do it.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:Its a fair point....But KISS isnt that far in the past....
Kiss is still being worked on.
Quoted from Squizz:That's all well and good for the folks working there and not being layed off! Mean's that STERN is making a lot of $$$
No actually it doesn't mean that. It means they have a lot of factory workers and paying say 15 workers $15 and hour for a week of doing nothing because the dev team has more code to write could be enough to go out of business if you do it regularly. You need machines on the line otherwise they have to ramp down the factory and get into a JJP slow moving factory situation or they have to just release machines close to ready now and update them in the field. It's not a problem of stern workers. It's our problem. When stern announced a game it's run very fast and preorders are all filled. Other companies take several months sometimes years to complete a run of a game.
Quoted from Circus_Animal:If software development can't keep pace with manufacturing, the company will go out of business no matter how they time things; the backlog will just keep getting bigger until the whole thing falls over. If it can, then there's no reason for Stern to be releasing half-finished games. All they would need to do is slow the frequency of announcements for a year or two and software would be synchronised with manufacturing, after which point they could continue at the current rate.
That also not true. Software development isn't the type of thing that goes twice as fast with 2 people than one and 2x as fast with 4 people as 2. So if the dev cycle for software is (for example) 2 years per game and the cycle for mechanics and manufacturing is 1, all you need is enough software guys so that one guy can keep working on one machine until it's done. At this point stern has 2-3 real releases per year but it has 4 lead software devs so it actually does work out and it does keep pace but just to be more behind.
Also, software can't get started earlier either. They need a game at a certain level of operation before they can write their code.
Quoted from flynnibus:This I disagree with. The platform is relatively stable. Game code is largely abstracted from the hardware below it. There isn't a lot of reason simulation can't be used to get a bulk of the elements in place. The hardware driver interfaces can be acted on later or at least represented with interfaces
And now they should be coding in a high level language. If not, build the thing in a pinmame type environment.
With their hardware platform spanning multiple titles over years... It's gotta be worth it
Pinmame might have been someone helpful on Sam where it was emulated. But then you'd need resources to make the video table. This is not at all helpful on spike where there is no emulation. They would have to spend a lot of hours creating the simulation type environment that doesn't exist now.
Quoted from jwilson:Stern's workers aren't unionized, they're part time - so if the line isn't running, they just don't bring people in that day. Not like at WMS, where they got paid whether they worked or not.
Right but if they're not working they quit and find new jobs.
Quoted from Circus_Animal:Okay, so software development can keep pace with production. So why are they releasing half-finished games? Slow the release cycle for a couple of years until games are actually finished when they start selling them.
Unfortunately, you misunderstood what I said. Software can be written in multiple teams where each team can be working on a game independently of another team. These numbers are examples. Suppose software needs about 1.6 years to complete its job but mechanical engineering only needs 1 year. Suppose the factory must run a minimum of 3 items per year for them to stay in business. Suppose the software cycle cannot begin until the game is 4 months into the mechanics. With this model you can have double the software teams as the mechanical teams and the software will always be done about a year after the game and the factory will always be running on schedule. This explains why the situation is as it is. Otherwise each game would need say another year of time before its release.
I'm sure many would love to see stern just pause and wait a year, have each game take a year longer, and start releasing completed games but that isn't going to be possible for them as a business that has bills to pay and workers to pay.
And btw, this problem will only get worse when DMD moves to led with fancy graphics that take tons longer to develop than DMD dots which almost anyone can do.
Quoted from gamestencils:Delaying production of new games to make sure that rules only a fraction of users might ever see are completed doesn't make business sense at all.
Remember, 9/10 is a fraction also. Don't mistake to think most updates from initial release will only be noticed by a small amount of users. It's really not true. Major strategies in the game change. Xmen, acdc, Metallica, walking dead - these games were dramatically different from initial release to end result.
Quoted from dung:Would be fine if they had enough development teams to support this. What happens though is they get the game out the door and instead of continuing work, they dump it for another title. At some point they revisit it *if* it sells. The longer it sells the more they revisit it. If Stern works based on your example they need another developer team so that get around to finishing in a timely manner. I don't think anyone here is going to agree that 3 years for avengers is timely.
Avengers shipped pretty much complete from day 1. The rule set hasn't really changed much and the wizard mode was there etc. The recent update was *very* nice to have but not really necessary for a complete game. I think the dev teams actually considered it done when they released it so it wasn't a priority to work on it.
The same is untrue of the way twd, acdc, and Metallica shipped. No wizard modes, not a ton to do at initial launch. Games are great now.
Anyways, last year stern hired another development lead - Dwight. He finished Star Trek, did GoT and seemed to have most of what he wanted to do done at launch. He seems to be a productive programmer.
Quoted from jints56:Crazy. Can't wait for the code bitching in 6 months.
I doubt it. So far Dwight has a great track record.
Quoted from whisper:Totally agree, xmen needs a fix up, there's no way you should be able to start hero modes again after there completed, it makes trying to get to danger room so frustrating, having to time out hero modes because there complete an don't want to put your ball in danger of loosing it by playing a mode that is finished, very surprised this got overlooked in the last update, please stern fix this is just a small thing, an holding up otherwise a perfect game, I love xmen, but this is a very annoying issue....
This didn't get over looked and it's not a bug. Historically, in all pinball, there are two types of modes. The modes where you have a scoop or such to shoot to start the mode - in xmen this like the villains. In tz it's the scoop, in IJ it's the saucer. These modes typically run through and are not replayable until you hit some sort of wizard or mini wizard mode then they usually clear. That's how those types of modes always work.
Then you have other types of modes where shooting X shot N times starts the mode. This is like avatar, iron man, attack from Mars, Medieval madness. All those types of modes always can be replayed no matter the state of the game and do not cut out once beaten. That's how those types of modes always work. Xmen heroes works this way.
Quoted from whisper:Ahh cheers markmon, I never realised that. So on any of the games you mentioned, is it impossible to cancel this out so the mode can't restart?
No you can replay them over and over whether you need them or not.
Quoted from monkeyboypaul:Happy Birthday ST v1.61
(slightly premature - hoping to be shocked by a surprise release tomorrow, not holding my breath though)
Dwight is busy with ghost busters and game of thrones. I think we are done with Star Trek. It's got a couple bugs but it's complete enough and is a fun game now.
Quoted from monkeyboypaul:i had read the same, but, 1yr has passed since the last update... the momentum has gone.
As a Star Trek owner, I'm perfectly happy with the current code. Steve Ritchie should have moved on ages ago btw. His design work was done when games shipped.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:I thought that was in very poor taste on sterns part. They openly admit that accessories are aimed (mostly) at the home buyer. They also openly admit that the home buyer 'requires' more code to be satisfied than an operator. The pin has gotten virtually no meaningful code updates (nitpick away if you like) for over half a year and yet they have plenty of time to create, build, market and sell half a dozen accessories.
I've cancelled my LE GB and will put off buying a GB all together until KISS code is released.
I agree it sucks if the code is incomplete. But that is unrelated to selling kiss accessories. It's not like the software team stopped coding to mold plastics.
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:It's actually quite closely related. As noted, home users (the same ones that prefer deeper code) are generally the same target for accessories.
They can do whatever they want but it continues to show how tone deaf they are and how inept their marketing can be.
Quoted from smokedog:Pretty much all coded, but it's not great. Some sounds missing (outlane drains), very little variety in the dots and call outs, selecting cities at the beginning does nothing.
It's a great pin to play, and it is doing great on location. But it needs polish. From what the rumour is, it is getting a complete code overhaul, which is not a bad thing in my mind (similar to Xmen growing pains ... god that code on release sucked).
Sounds like typical Lonnie code. Complete but not super great. In sterns defense, if the code is all there but not too great, it's not incomplete. Not everyone will like every game.
Glad it's getting an overhaul. If that's the case then it could be a huge task though which explains why it's taking so long.
Quoted from rubberducks:I don't see why you're so confident of that and think your confidence is misplaced.
Quoted from rubberducks:Which recent Stern games have finished code, or don't require bug fixing still?
Quoted from rubberducks: Metallica and ... Mustang to an extent? TWD's nearly there, but we still hear of bugs and Lyman says he wants another one or two updates for it.
Quoted from rubberducks: ST still has bugs and missing things, another update is planned for some time in the future, and it's 3 years old.
Quoted from rubberducks: KISS .. a year old now, and in a total state still.
Quoted from rubberducks: WWE took a year for some bug fixing and minor mode changes ... still none of the missing animations, sounds, game modes. GoT ok, but not finished, and still lacking in the DMD front.
Quoted from rubberducks: AC / DC still in major need of mode rebalancing, and Lyman said he has his notes for the next update ... nearly 2 years since last update?
Quoted from rubberducks: Avengers finally got an update after being broken since release (4 years?) effectively, and doesn't fix everything.
Quoted from rubberducks: Transformers and Iron Man could use some further work
Quoted from taylor34:Uh, no it wasn't. Highly imbalanced, modes that were almost impossible to start and finish, bugs with drop targets, etc. It wasn't great. It still isn't the most fun, but at least it's a lot more balanced. Honestly I'm not sure why anyone would defend them on some of these games, the way they treated their customers on Avengers for 3 years was awful. There's no excuse for KISS either. 3 months, sure, 6 months maybe, but we're coming up on a year now with nothing.
But to be fair, people that preorder games knowing this kind of get what they deserve. I really don't have much sympathy for anyone who bought games after Avengers, it's their own fault for buying games that might take forever to complete. So while I think it's unacceptable that Stern treats their customers that way, I also can't really feel that sorry for the customers that bought game after all the code problems that have happened the past few years.
I don't agree at all. I've been an avengers owner since day 1. I think it's the best code Lonnie has ever written. The only thing unbalanced were the fury awards but I liked those. The drop target bugs were easily solved by fixing the mechanics in the targets. The code did a terrible job handling them if they weren't working perfectly.
Quoted from taylor34:15 black widow ramps to complete the mode isn't a tad bit ridiculous? Plus monotonous? There's like no thought put into the rules at all for at least the base modes, they're all the same 'shoot this shot a million times' type of deal. Compared to like the hero modes in X-Men, they're just awful (I own both games currently, need to update my profile). The Vs. modes are fun but you have to chop so much wood to get there it's ridiculous. Avengers ruleset is just not great relative to a similar game of the same timeframe, X-Men.
There actually was a ton of thought. You can adjust the amount of shots for each of the modes in settings. Those options exist for a reason. If you feel that 15 is too much, feel free to change it. There are I think 4 different levels. I think I wrote a thread a couple years back on how I suggested tweaking this game. In short, you open the outlanes to max to shorten ball times then set all the qualification modes to easy and lower the dual times. The result is you're in duals more often and quicker and game times are way lower. With the code update we just got, the BW ramp is extra easy to complete now that the spinner counts towards the shots.
Quoted from Squizz:Maybe so, But he should have fixed the Left orbit shot with GOT's. This is just a complete stuff up that should have been fixed before release to the public!.
Not happy jan
I agree. But my comment was to a response regarding Star Trek code, not game of thrones, which he probably *is* still involved in.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:I think the point he was trying to make is modes as well as multiballs that just have you hitting the same shot over and over again are boring. I agree. Modes in XMEN, LOTR, The Shadow, Ghostbusters, etc make you work the entire playfield, now thats fun and rewarding...hitting the same shot 10x isn't.
But avengers modes aren't like that. They last forever, no timers and all stack. It's a creative way to go.
Quoted from mark9:A year and a half since the last Star Trek code....
Star trek code was finished a year and a half ago
Quoted from TomGWI:Except for the bugs
All games have bugs. I guess by that logic games are unfinished. I call a game complete when it's feature complete - star trek, got, and gb all fit this even though there are bugs.
Quoted from flashinstinct:And the promise of another release....
There was no promise. Mentioning that another release to fix some bugs should come out some day doesn't make everyone entitled. And that's certainly not a promise.
Kiss code isn't in good shape. That definitely needs some work. If Lyman just took it over, figure a good year from when he took it for a decent code drop. That's how he works. All Dwight's games and all lymans current games are in a code complete state. People always comment that gb should come out nice when the code matures. Unfortunately, that game was released with completed code. Instead of giving credit to that fact, you get loads of complaining that Stern doesn't care about code. There's no way to win lol.
Quoted from rubberducks:I think that's due to the general feeling that Stern won't ever finish it.
The design (save for Pro's art package) is by no means bad, but the horrific state the game was released in, and then left to rot in for over a year condemned it to its fate. The minor changes this year in no way make a finished product.
Quoted from TomGWI:Can you describe what to do in the game? How you get each belt?
No, I think the game's terrible and have no interest in the game, the layout, or the theme. But that doesn't mean it's unfinished. It's just not fun. Not every game will be a smash hit.
Quoted from TomGWI:I'm fine you think the game is terrible. I have no problem with that. Most people hate it and I get it.
However, If you don't know what is going on in the game, how can you comment that the game is finished.
Let me tell you, the game is 5x better than the Rolling Stones pin in your collection. I actually speak from experience. I have owned them both. The band is great but the game blows. Rant over.
Yea I don't actually own a rolling Stones. It's an iron maiden but since it was self converted, there's no way to update that on pinside.com. The rule set in rolling Stones is a combination Lyman / Lonnie rules set similar to avatar, iron man style. It's actually quite good with some strategic stacking. And there is some decent mini wizard modes and a real wizard mode. The software is good and it's all there. The ramps are wide and have a Steve Ritchie style feel. Once the stones was removed from the game, it has really come alive and is a great game.
Quoted from flashinstinct:They had promised a revision round after 1.61 came out more than a year an a half ago. Waiting that long to finish / polish code is simply ridiculous.
The star trek code is long finished and polished. There are a couple bugs that are hard to reproduce that need fixing bit that's all. It's definitely not a situation that's "ridiculous".
You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider markmon.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/about-stern-and-commitment-to-code-releases?tu=markmon and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Hillsboro, OR