Ghostbusters (Pro)
Stern, 2016
Iron Man
Stern, 2010
KISS (Pro)
Stern, 2015
Star Trek (LE)
Stern, 2013
Star Trek (Premium)
Stern, 2013
The Avengers (LE)
Stern, 2012
The Avengers (Premium)
Stern, 2012
Transformers (LE)
Stern, 2011You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider Pinfactory2000.
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Stern has a very small window of time to change how it deals with code and its customers. Meaningful competitors are in the pipeline. Two years from now, consumers will have meaningful choices when it comes to what manufacturers they want to spend money with.
BUT at least they are addressing it. And that's a good start IMO.
(Btw, saying kiss has had multiple code updates is so disingenuous it verges on being deceitful.)
Quoted from smokedog:You mean all those other companies that are pumping out games at a frantic pace for sub $5K? Can you name some? I'd be interested in purchasing those games.
Hit me up in 24 months and we'll talk about JJP, spooky pinball, Dutch (maybe others?) all shipping or having shipped their 2-4th pins.
Fwiw, I have no desire for stripped down sub $5k zizzles or 'frantic paces'. I buy premiums and only 1 NIB a year. And for buyers like me, stern now has to work harder to keep our money.
It's not an aggressive or controversial comment. It's just the facts of a market becoming more competitive.
Quoted from smokedog:Do you think if they feel pressure, they will up it further? It's a business first and foremost.
Yep. And that was exactly my point.
Prior to real competitors they never even publically adressed the code 'situation'.
A little competitive pressure is good for everyone (and for pinball in general).
Quoted from smassa:What's worse? That or announcing different LEs after people have paid for a previous "LE"?
PS: You may wanna go back and look at the final line in the feature matrix you posted.
Maybe they'll get sued and go out of business like Pepsi is for making another 'limited edition' Pepsi perfect run!
Quoted from Astropin:Yeah.....Pepsi's going to go out of business over that.
It's a joke. You'd have to read some of the hysterics over in the Pepsi perfect posts to fully comprehend.
Quoted from PW79:New rule:
We must all get along when complaining about code/prices/art/theme/delays
United we stand, divided we... look stupid.
Are we allowed to post 20% of our comment today and add to it over time until it gets to 85%? 
Edit: upgrade to version 1.02, spelling error fix
Quoted from Luckydogg420:If you live in a city with good public transportation, then some would argue that cars are just expensive toys and you don't really need one. In fact many people with the means to buy a car still prefer to bicycle to work.
Employees should be compensated for work that they do for their employer, simple as that. (And I work piece work, I'm regularly told "ya gotta take the good with the bad" but I don't volunteer for my boss.) I also don't want to be in a position where I buy a game that's 75% complete and then months later I have to pay for complete code that was created by a moonlighting stern employee that is working on their own time to complete a product that their employer couldn't finish.
Stern should complete their games. It should not be left up to dedicated employees after hours.
This seems to be more of a situation where stern is fine with the state of the code but a passionate employee is deciding, on their own volition, to do 'more'.
That's pretty cut and dry to me. If a GM employee on the line is employed to clean up messy welds and they end up completely blending metal joints instead of just taking the burrs off because they are OCD or take pride in doing so, that's fine...
But it's not on their employer to pay them more
Quoted from QuarterGrabber:You make a really good point there. But the question is, is Stern expecting/wanting too little out of their programmers? I mean these are $10,000 machines, I think every programmer should program their games like Lyman and Stern should demand it from them. I guess we keep buying unfinished games so there is no reason for Stern to throw down the hammer on the programmers, but with the last few releases (TWD, GOT) Stern has been making an excellent effort to finish code in a reasonable time frame, IMO.
Their progress around this is uneven which comes across as either disorganization and/or a nonchalance about their customers desires.
I mean, honestly, another GOT update and KISS still feels like it's in beta...
If they would simply come out and talk about what customers should expect around timelines and keep people up to speed, ALL of the ill will goes away.
Quoted from beelzeboob:Let's just keep going after distributors, programmers, and PR people for every pinball company and see if we can ever get anybody back on Pinside to share information, ever. It's self-destructive behavior and people need to STFU and go hit the Start button. Get a perspective and chill out.
Having a site full of fanboys is the worst possible thing for the industry.
Having a site full of haters is the worst possible thing for the industry.
Calling out companies for BS practices and praising them when they 'get it right' is neither of those things and far from self destructive.
Quoted from fatality83:Jared please come back, most of us appreciated you and what you were doing. Don't let a few people ruin it for you and others. Please announce your return.
Did Jared participate here? The only post I remember him in was one he started about code (I think??) but it was just basically a press release?
Quoted from Dr-Willy:they never give a time frame so not sure what else they are going to say?
That doesnt mean its 'ok' or that they couldnt start giving timelines around code releases...But that would take discipline on their part...
Quoted from DNO:People going ape shit because they are self-entitled assholes around here.
Things take time, and anything that happens unexpected takes MORE time, never less.
Although I think some here would expect to have Stern employees report any and all bumps in the road here, with explaination of problems and full reports on new timeframes and expectations, LoL!
Stern does NOT need to be micro-managed by Pinside, they don't owe anything here.
They tried to communicate some, and the bitterness and negativity ran them away.
But go on fooling yourself, don't forget to remind yourself that they would be out of business if it wasn't for YOU!
Remind everyone how much money YOU have spent, and what Stern owes YOU for that!
Maybe you could mock up the Stern/pinside time management weekly worksheet to get them going in the right direction,
I'm sure the programmers would love it.
Somewhere a strawman is looking for a few bales of missing hay...
Stern had a marketing guy post a fluff PR piece and then he didn't answer any questions. That does not equal communication.
I'd also note that being more disciplined and communicative about code releases (giving rough timelines regarding code releases) does not equate to being micromanaged.
Doing both of those things however, would equate to materially better customer support.
For those who cant take even constructive feedback about stern without blowing a gasket....Please, 'dislike' away.
Quoted from DNO:Stern doesn't owe anyone here shit, yet many love to insist they do.
.
Haven't seen a single person here insisting they do.
Just making some pretty basic customer service suggestions I think.
Quoted from Tigger64:I find that most companies are this way. They look at social media as another way to promote their product. They set up on FB, Twitter, etc. to "communicate" with their customers, but the reality is they want that to be a one-way conversation.
They are used to traditional advertising where they can say what they want, how they want and when they want. They are used to making fluffy promises with small print you can't read, and not having to hear you yell at your TV.
It does say a lot about a company in the way they respond to their customers on line. Will the ignore/block a person? Or will they take the complaints seriously and actually try and improve things?
Two years ago (or so) I asked (nicely) about the timing of acode update on their FB page and was immediately blocked.
Quoted from 85vett:We keep talking about what Stern should be doing with the release of a new game and the code but it feels as though everyone is forgetting about GOT which is Stern's newest (non VE) game that they have released. That code was in really good shape when it first shipped. There were some bugs that were found but the game was complete. There are things that we as a community would like to have added but we can't argue it wasn't complete because there are features we'd like to add.
My point in this response is I think we continue to look at the past and are forgetting the current to quickly.
I wont argue that code is still a challenge with Stern but we also need to admit they have heard our complaints and are making strides to improve on them and GOT to me was an example of this.
Its a fair point....But KISS isnt that far in the past....
Quoted from markmon:Kiss is still being worked on.
Uh, sure/maybe but what's your point? he was saying that recent releases had code pretty well baked off the line.
Quoted from Baiter:Stern is wasting their time with deep rulesets because only 2% of their customers care about it?
What percentage of sterns pins are home use? 2% seems really low...
Quoted from gamestencils:I most certainly did not say that, I said they are doing what any smart business should. Prioritize. If they put 80% of their resources to satisfy 2% of the customers that's really dumb business. If it's the other way around and they put 20% to satisfying the 2% other pins make it out the door on schedule and satisfy the vast majority but the more detailed updates take a little longer for the hardcore. In the end everyone's happy, albeit not as quickly as a select group would like it to be. That clarify what i'm trying to say?
KISS hasn't really had any material code updates in 6 months. That's not 'a little longer' IMO...and I don't consider myself 'hardcore' for wanting, at least, basic sounds (like outlane sounds) to be present when shipping.
Despite that though, I'm with you. They are focusing on cranking out pins, knowing they'll sell regardless of code status. It's smart. I just highly doubt they'd make the same decisions if they had real competitors.
Quoted from flashinstinct:whatcha-gonna-code_(resized).png
Quoted from flashinstinct:whatcha-gonna-code_(resized).png
LE's are already sold out.
Hasnt even been a gameplay video released.
Quoted from Trekkie1978:The KISS accessories posts on Facebook really piss me off. Stop trying to sell me KISS products until the code is fixed. I don't expect finished code yet, but at least fix what's wrong on this one.
Stern should pass this game along to Dwight or Lyman.
I thought that was in very poor taste on sterns part. They openly admit that accessories are aimed (mostly) at the home buyer. They also openly admit that the home buyer 'requires' more code to be satisfied than an operator. The pin has gotten virtually no meaningful code updates (nitpick away if you like) for over half a year and yet they have plenty of time to create, build, market and sell half a dozen accessories.
I've cancelled my LE GB and will put off buying a GB all together until KISS code is released.
Quoted from Trekkie1978:I wouldn't cancel Ghostbusters.
Most wouldnt but its a principal thing for me. I cant bitch about stern not releasing code on a NIB pin I bought 6 months ago and then lap up another NIB before I even play it.
Quoted from markmon:I agree it sucks if the code is incomplete. But that is unrelated to selling kiss accessories. It's not like the software team stopped coding to mold plastics.
It's actually quite closely related. As noted, home users (the same ones that prefer deeper code) are generally the same target for accessories.
They can do whatever they want but it continues to show how tone deaf they are and how inept their marketing can be.
Quoted from markmon:And the folk working on the code are not involved in the mods.
Obviously.
And I never suggested they were.
What I suggested was that sterns marketing group was tone deaf and inept.
Quoted from vdojaq:I posted on this Stern thread on Facebook and they promptly removed it. I posted "Since we have great accessories for KISS, how about a great code update? "
Nothing rude, outrageous, or demeaning, but it was removed. Really ? That is how you treat your customers who buy NIB premiums and LE's?
A load of sh*t is what it is!
I'm guessing you've now been banned from their FB page. They get virtually no traffic there due to everyone except fanboys being blocked.
they have a sunrise and some kiss icons on their FB page...CMON!!!! Let this be the new days for KISS!!!!
Quoted from markmon:if the code is all there but not too great, it's not incomplete.
The 'backstage pass' does virtually nothing, the cities do literally nothing and it doesn't even have outlane sounds.
Its not complete by virtually anyones definition.
Quoted from 85vett:Backstage pass give an add a ball during MB and other minor awards outside of MB.
The cities are different modes with different ways to complete the modes. There is strategy there on which ones you do at what time and which ones to bring into a MB. Not to mention the crazy scoring potential there is when you start comboing mode shots.
This to me is more proof that KISS just has code people either don't understand or just don't like. It's being compared to with Avengers. Avengers code was pretty complete (minus a couple minor bugs and missing dots in a wizard mode) long ago which is where I feel KISS is at this point (got some bugs but not missing advertised features). Most don't like the code but that doesn't mean it wasn't complete. I personally like the code and I think some of the changes they made were a step back (like the spinner for BW shots).Every pinball machine is going to force you to shoot the same shots over and over because there are only a set number of shots in a game. For instance, count how many times you are forced to shoot the left ramp in ST in order to complete the missions to get to KMMB. It's far more than 15. How many times do you have to hit Sparky to get Sparky MB (10 times) and then it's the super jackpot in the MB (let's not even count the CIU for sparky too). Yes, you have to shoot BW 15 times to complete her and get to a VS mode but it's your own fault if you aren't playing the whole PF. There is so much more than trying to get one avenger at a time.
Again, let's not compare "I don't like the code" to "code is incomplete". That's all I'm saying at this point.
Cool. Sounds like you're happy with the beta code and won't update when new code is released. I'll be updating mine.
To each their own.
Quoted from markmon:That's a finished game. Let's not confuse a poorly coded game with an unfinished game.
So lets just all call the games 'poorly coded' and move on with the discussion.
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